Was Ellen White Really a False Prophet--2?

[Eila]

Before you pass judgment on a scripture in the bible you study everything the bible says about it. Then you can make an informed judgement about what the bible actually says regarding a specific thing. Should not this also be applied to other writings? Especially when these writings are claimed to be from God? Can you just take one phrase and say "there it is, false prophet, that is completely wrong. Maybe you should visit some of the websites that do this with the bible. You may be surprised! You will always find what you are looking for. here is some more writings on the topic of tidiness that may help you in understanding the true meaning of what is written. I pray that your heart will be softened to the Holy Spirit and His leading.


Believers should be taught that even though they may be poor, they need not be uncleanly or untidy in their persons or in their homes. Help must be given in this line to those who seem to have no sense of the meaning and importance of cleanliness. They are to be taught that those who are to represent the high and holy God must keep their souls pure and clean, and that this purity must extend to their dress, and to everything in the home, so that the ministering angels will have evidence that the truth has wrought a change in the life, purifying the soul and refining the tastes. Those who, after receiving the truth, make no change in word or deportment, in dress or surroundings, are living to themselves, not to Christ. They have not been created anew in Christ Jesus, unto purification and holiness. {RH, June 10, 1902 par. 4}

Some are very untidy in person. They need to be guided by the Holy Spirit to prepare for a pure and holy heaven. God declared that when the children of Israel came to the mount, to hear the proclamation of the law, they were to come with clean bodies and clean clothes. Today his people are to honor him by habits of scrupulous neatness and purity. {RH, June 10, 1902 par. 5}

That phrase I quoted stood all by itself in the EGW book I quoted. I got that directly from the EGW site.

Here is the fuller quote:

" I then saw a lack of cleanliness among Sabbath-keepers. I saw that God would have a clean and holy people, a people that He can delight in. I saw that the camp must be cleansed or the Lord would pass by and see the uncleanness of the children of Israel and would not go forth with their armies to battle, but would turn from them in displeasure and our enemies would triumph over us, and we left weak in shame and disgrace. I saw that God would not acknowledge an untidy and unclean person as a Christian. His frown was upon such. Our souls, bodies, and spirits are to be presented blameless by Jesus to His Father, and unless we are clean in person and pure in heart, we cannot be presented blameless to God. I saw that the houses of the saints should be kept tidy and neat from dirt and filth and all uncleanness. I saw that the house of God had been desecrated by the carelessness of parents, with their children, and by the untidiness and uncleanness there. I saw that these things should meet with an open rebuke, and if there was not a change immediately in some that profess the truth, in these things, they should be put out of the camp. {6MR 217.3}"

This has the same theme as the tobacco quote. Righteousness by works, not by faith. Both cases were ones where she is relating what was revealed to her in vision.

How are are the tobacco quote and the cleanliness vision quotes anywhere near Biblical? We must clean ourselves up to be presentable before God or to get sealed? That is not the gospel.

Your quotes are not ones where she is directly relating things from a vision. I could acknowledge error in those, but there should be no error in the visions.

 

[djconklin]

Righteousness by works, not by faith.

Righteousness without is by definition a work--but it isn't the work that saves you--it is the faith that allowed you to do the work in the first place. Righteousness is always and only by faith. Now to follow the traditionas and teachings of man is also a work and is not faith--and whatsoever is not of faith is a sin.

Romans 14:23​

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I could acknowledge error in those, but there should be no error in the visions.

Scripture please.​

​

 

[Eila]

Righteousness without is by definition a work--but it isn't the work that saves you--it is the faith that allowed you to do the work in the first place. Righteousness is always and only by faith. Now to follow the traditionas and teachings of man is also a work and is not faith--and whatsoever is not of faith is a sin.

Romans 14:23​

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
​

Righteousness without works is a work? If righteousness by faith is a work then salvation is not by grace.

Romans 4 '16Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all."

Scripture please.

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'— 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

 

[djconklin]

Righteousness without works is a work?

Pardon my English was oversimplified. If you do a righteous deed (i.e., outside the body where everyone can see it) that is "righteousness without." It is then, a work.

If righteousness by faith is a work then salvation is not by grace.

No, because as I clearly stated: "it isn't the work that saves you--it is the faith that allowed you to do the work in the first place. Righteousness is always and only by faith."

Thank you for trying to provide the requested text. However, the text doesn't prove your claim: "there should be no error in the visions." And how would you know if there was an error in the vision?

 

[Eila]

Pardon my English was oversimplified. If you do a righteous deed (i.e., outside the body where everyone can see it) that is "righteousness without." It is then, a work.

Okay, I'm sure you don't mean what I'm reading here. "Outside the body"? Your spirit is doing righteous deeds

No, because as I clearly stated: "it isn't the work that saves you--it is the faith that allowed you to do the work in the first place. Righteousness is always and only by faith."

I agree. Works are a fruit of faith. This is contrary to the visions of EGW though. The angel told her that a person is not sealed until they are cleaned up. How is that righteousness by faith? She was shown in vision that those who are messy can not be presented blameless before God. How is that righteousness by faith?

Thank you for trying to provide the requested text. However, the text doesn't prove your claim: "there should be no error in the visions." And how would you know if there was an error in the vision?

Because they contradict the Bible. Just in the 2 quotes I provided EGW relates from her visions that righteousness is by works.

 

[djconklin]

Your spirit is doing righteous deeds

I think any reasonable person would say that "deeds" are something that is done outside the body.

Works are a fruit of faith.

That is true.

This is contrary to the visions of EGW though. The angel told her that a person is not sealed until they are cleaned up.

This is no contradiction here. By continuing to willfully sin they show that they haven't yet been converted.

How is that righteousness by faith?

Righteousness by faith takes place after/during one has been converted.

She was shown in vision that those who are messy can not be presented blameless before God. How is that righteousness by faith?

When you are righteous by faith you have put on the robe of righteousness that Christ has given you. People who are not converted are not given the robe. You have to choose: either be converted and put on Christ's rightousness or die in your sins.

Just in the 2 quotes I provided EGW relates from her visions that righteousness is by works.

Only if you assume too much and assume the wrong things.

 

[Eila]

I think any reasonable person would say that "deeds" are something that is done outside the body.

Maybe I'm unreasonable then It sounded like an out-of-body experience

This is no contradiction here. By continuing to willfully sin they show that they haven't yet been converted.

What does it take to be converted?

Righteousness by faith takes place after/during one has been converted.

Please elaborate. This statement doesn't make sense to me.

When you are righteous by faith you have put on the robe of righteousness that Christ has given you. People who are not converted are not given the robe. You have to choose: either be converted and put on Christ's rightousness or die in your sins.

What does conversion have to do with tobacco or being messy? Receiving Christ's righteousness is as simple as accepting it. There are no requirements for receiving Christ's righteousness other than believing. Cleaning up your life in order to receive Christ's righteousness is righteousness by works.

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus was clear on the idea that it was not God's will for anyone to get divorced, but that MOSES (not God), gave the people a certificate of divorce.

So you have no argument here.

At this point your only true alternative is to admit that a prophet can make a mistake.

I disagree with your arguments because from your rational, God also subjected himself to Moses mistake, because He also gave Israel a bill of divorce.
Jer 3:8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The facts in the Matt19 lesson is, Christ is reemphasizing God's perfect plan for man" at the beginning of time" does not mean that God allowed Moses to create His own laws.
The mistake is with your exegesis.
Jesus was saying to the pharisees that knew the law, that men use a letter of divorce as a legal way out of a marriage which God had no intention give when He created man.


Mat 19:4......he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Here are references that proves that Israel heart were hardend against God laws, which were given by His spirit to the prophet Moses. (if you challenge my statement or verse 12 below, the context of Zec7 contain laws and prophecies given by Moses.)
Zec 7:12Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
Proof that Moses is referenced here as one of the former prophets are these commandments.......
Zec 7:10And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

....which cross references to these commandments given by Moses.

Exd 22:21Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Exd 22:22Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

The undisputable fact is God's is speaking all these commandments to Moses the same day He gave the ten commandments...Exd 21:1¶Now these [are] the judgments which thou shalt set before them.


Here is where God commands divorce...Exd 21:10If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. Exd 21:11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

By the way, the idea that only certain moral laws apply to certain people is foreign to the Bible. God expects everyone to follow the same moral standards as disclosed in the Bible.

As the scholar you present yourself to be, why can you not understand this theory written below.

God has revealed a mystery in these last days, that He will judge the world by faith and not by the law.

(Try not to misinterpret my statement as a license to sin, because those who reject what we teach tend to say we condone forms of unrighteousness.)
Heres the proof.
ROM 3:
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
20For by works of the law no human being [fn3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

( errors comes when these texts are isolated to support commentary out of the context of these teachings.)

IN LOVE
CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

WOOB, I disagree with your arguments because from your rational, God also subjected himself to Moses mistake, because He also gave Israel a bill of divorce.
Jer 3:8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The facts in the Matt19 lesson is, Christ is reemphasizing God's perfect plan for man" at the beginning of time" does not mean that God allowed Moses to create His own laws.
The mistake is with your exegesis.
Jesus was saying to the pharisees that knew the law, that men use a letter of divorce as a legal way out of a marriage which God had no intention give when He created man.


Mat 19:4......he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Here are references that proves that Israel heart were hardend against God laws, which were given by His spirit to the prophet Moses. (if you challenge my statement or verse 12 below, the context of Zec7 contain laws and prophecies given by Moses.)
Zec 7:12Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
Proof that Moses is referenced here as one of the former prophets are these commandments.......
Zec 7:10And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

....which cross references to these commandments given by Moses.

Exd 22:21Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Exd 22:22Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

The undisputable fact is God's is speaking all these commandments to Moses the same day He gave the ten commandments...Exd 21:1¶Now these [are] the judgments which thou shalt set before them.


Here is where God commands divorce...Exd 21:10If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. Exd 21:11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.



------------------------------------------------------

As the scholar you present yourself to be, why can you not understand this theory written below.

God has revealed a mystery in these last days, that He will judge the world by faith and not by the law.

(Try not to misinterpret my statement as a license to sin, because those who reject what we teach tend to say we condone forms of unrighteousness.)
Heres the proof.
ROM 3:
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
20For by works of the law no human being [fn3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

( errors comes when these texts are isolated to support commentary out of the context of these teachings.)

IN LOVE
CRIB