Was Ellen White Really a False Prophet--2?

[woobadooba]

2 points to consider - Nathan was not prophesying when he said that.

The correction was given by God that same night and Nathan relayed the correction as a "thus says the Lord".

Were EGW's errors only errors on things where she was not relaying "I was shown", "I saw", "I have been shown", "My accompany angel showed me"? If so, I could see the comparison. And were her errors corrected by God with a "thus says the Lord"?

The point is that Nathan was wrong. He` assumed something to be of God and it wasn't. There are no buts about it. He was wrong; and according to your standards you would consider him to have been a false prophet. I see that you have a double standard here.

Can someone be shown something in vision and assume it to mean something other than what the Lord intended?

Does God allow for a prophet to interpret a vision for a time?

And where is your evidence anyway?

 

[djconklin]

Nathan was not prophesying when he said that.

Good thing I didn't say that he was at the time, right? The point was very simple: prophets can make mirtakes!

Were EGW's errors only errors on things where she was not relaying "I was shown", "I saw", "I have been shown", "My accompany angel showed me"?

1) The latter phrase was never written by EGW. Your source erred.
2) It has been shown (I believe it was either by her son Willie, or Arthur) that some of the "I saw" statement refer to written text and not to a vision. She saw the truth in it.

And were her errors corrected by God with a "thus says the Lord"?

Didn't have to. She once wriote that the Paradfise valey Sanitarium had 40 rooms. Some knucklehead who believed in verbal inspiration went out and counted the rooms (there were 38). You can read the rest of the story here: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc21.html

You will note that the above is from Jemison's book "A Prophet Among You" that came pout in 1955. I would suggest thet you put it at the top of your reading list.

 

[djconklin]

Where did Nathan the prophet goof when prophesying?

We have no evidence that EGW "goofed" when prophesying. We do know that Jonah "goofed."

 

[Eila]

1) The latter phrase was never written by EGW. Your source erred.
2) It has been shown (I believe it was either by her son Willie, or Arthur) that some of the "I saw" statement refer to written text and not to a vision. She saw the truth in it.

What source? I was going from memory. I looked it up and the actual phrases mean the same thing "My accompanying angel informed me", "Said my accompanying angel", "My accompanyingangel presented..."

Are all the "I saw" statements that do not refer to any texts free from error. If not, how do you know that prophets like Daniel got it right?

We have no evidence that EGW "goofed" when prophesying. We do know that Jonah "goofed."

Where did Jonah goof when prophesying?

You believe that everything that EGW prophesied is free from error?

 

[djconklin]

What source? I was going from memory. I looked it up and the actual phrases mean the same thing "My accompanying angel informed me", "Said my accompanying angel", "My accompanyingangel presented..."

Well, then like my memory it is highly flawed and not to be trusted--have to re-verify everything, dang! If you go to http://www.whiteestate.org/ and click on "GUI search" and then at "Full text Search" type in what you have (I used the "angel showed me" from your previous post and got only one hit that didn't say what you had).

Are all the "I saw" statements that do not refer to any texts free from error.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me.

If not, how do you know that prophets like Daniel got it right?

"If not"? Why do you start from an assumption that he, or any other prophet, might have got it wrong? Where's the proof that he, or any other, got anything wrong?

Originally Posted by djconklin
We have no evidence that EGW "goofed" when prophesying. We do know that Jonah "goofed."

Where did Jonah goof when prophesying?

Hmmm, back to basics 101. He prophesied that in 40 days Nineveh would be overthrown. it wasn't.

You believe that everything that EGW prophesied is free from error?

Here you go again starting with the assumption that EGW prophesied something somewhere that was in error. Got proof? If not, then why start with the assumption?

This is like debating with the anti-Bible people who start with an assumption that the Bible is not free from errors. They don't prove it, they just assume it. Then they post what they think is "evidence" to support their foregone conclusion.

 

[Eila]

Well, then like my memory it is highly flawed and not to be trusted--have to re-verify everything, dang! If you go to http://www.whiteestate.org/ and click on "GUI search" and then at "Full text Search" type in what you have (I used the "angel showed me" from your previous post and got only one hit that didn't say what you had).

Yes, I went to the EGW site and that is where I listed the quotes from my last response. I looked it up and the actual phrases mean the same thing "My accompanying angel informed me", "Said my accompanying angel", "My accompanying angel presented..."

Angel showed me is pretty much the same as the actual quotes But yes, the "angel showed me" won't give you many hits.

Would you agree that this statement from EGW is Biblically sound? She is reporting exactly what the angel told her in her vision.

"I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it
must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If
it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is
given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me.

You had said that many of the instances where EGW said "I saw" referred to texts. I was asking if the instances where EGW said "I saw" where she was not referring to texts were error free.

"If not"? Why do you start from an assumption that he, or any other prophet, might have got it wrong? Where's the proof that he, or any other, got anything wrong?

That's the thing. Prophets of God don't get things wrong when they are prophesying.

Hmmm, back to basics 101. He prophesied that in 40 days Nineveh would be overthrown. it wasn't.

Not because Jonah prophesied incorrectly, but because of the mercy of God.

Jonah 3 "6The word reached[c] the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 8but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish." 10When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."

Jonah proclaimed what God told him to proclaim.

Here you go agains starting with the assumption that EGW prophesied something somewhere that was in error. Got proof? If not, then why start with the assumption?

This is like debating with the anti-Bible people who start with an assumption that the Bible is not free from errors. They don't prove it, they just assume it. Then they post what they think is "evidence" to support their foregone conclusion.

I just quoted something above.

 

[djconklin]

Would you agree that this statement from EGW is Biblically sound? She is reporting exactly what the angel told her in her vision.

"I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it
must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If
it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is
given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}

Where would be the problem? The Surgeon Genreal of the US and most physicians would tell you that in order to enjoy good health and stop killing those around you with your second-hand smoke that you shouldn't start smoking in the first place and if are a smoker then you should quit.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me.

You had said that many of the instances where EGW said "I saw" referred to texts. I was asking if the instances where EGW said "I saw" where she was not referring to texts were error free.

I didn't say "many." I have no evidence that those texts were error free. nor do I have any evidence that they are in error. I don't make assumptions and then proceed to build castles in the clouds.

 

[djconklin]

Prophets of God don't get things wrong when they are prophesying.

Jonah did! He really expected Nineveh to be destroyed; that's why he went out to wait for the end of the 40 days. I didn't say that he prophesied incorrectly. I just noted that what he preached/prophesied didn't happen. In a literal reading of the text he was a false prophet.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Here you go again starting with the assumption that EGW prophesied something somewhere that was in error. Got proof? If not, then why start with the assumption?

This is like debating with the anti-Bible people who start with an assumption that the Bible is not free from errors. They don't prove it, they just assume it. Then they post what they think is "evidence" to support their foregone conclusion.

I just quoted something above.

And it wasn't a prophesy, either! Do you know the difference?

 

[Eila]

Where would be the problem? The Surgeon Genreal of the US and most physicians would tell you that in order to enjoy good health and stop killing those around you with your second-hand smoke that you shouldn't start smoking in the first place and if are a smoker then you should quit.

The problem is she is saying that a person isn't sealed by God until they have quit using tobacco. That says a person needs to be cleaned-up before he is born again and it says that salvation is by your works.

Jonah did! He really expected Nineveh to be destroyed; that's why he went out to wait for the end of the 40 days. I didn't say that he prophesied incorrectly. I just noted that what he preached/prophesied didn't happen. In a literal reading of the text he was a false prophet.

Jonah didn't get anything wrong. He said exactly what God told Him to say.

According to Jonah he knew that God would show mercy. Jonah 4 "1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. 2And he prayed to the LORD and said, "O LORD, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. "

And it wasn't a prophesy, either! Do you know the difference?

She is relating what the accompanying angel told her. Prophesying isn't restricted to foretelling the future. I am referring to every instance where it says she was shown something, where she saw something, where the angel told her something, etc.

The defiinition of prophet from Strong's isn't limited to one who foretells the future.

some prophets
New Testament Greek Definition:
4396 prophetes {prof-ay'-tace}
from a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT - 6:781,952; n m
AV - prophet 149; 149
1) in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
2) one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or
spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by
inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in
particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to
human salvation
2a) the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death,
of Jesus the Messiah.
2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent
of the Messiah
2d) the Messiah
2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority
and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and
urges salvation of men
2f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
2f1) they are associated with the apostles
2f2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian
cause, foretelling certain future events. (Acts 11:27)
2f3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were
moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to
instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and
stimulate, their hearers
3) a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine
inspiration)
3a) of Epimenides (Tit. 1:12)

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
Where would be the problem? The Surgeon Genreal of the US and most physicians would tell you that in order to enjoy good health and stop killing those around you with your second-hand smoke that you shouldn't start smoking in the first place and if are a smoker then you should quit.

The problem is she is saying that a person isn't sealed by God until they have quit using tobacco. That says a person needs to be cleaned-up before he is born again and it says that salvation is by your works.

It didn't say anything about being cleaned up "before" being born again. You read way too much into the quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
Jonah did! He really expected Nineveh to be destroyed; that's why he went out to wait for the end of the 40 days. I didn't say that he prophesied incorrectly. I just noted that what he preached/prophesied didn't happen. In a literal reading of the text he was a false prophet.

Jonah didn't get anything wrong. He said exactly what God told Him to say.

Did I say that he didn't? Why do you bring up stuff that is irrelvant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
And it wasn't a prophesy, either! Do you know the difference?

She is relating what the accompanying angel told her. Prophesying isn't restricted to foretelling the future. I am referring to every instance where it says she was shown something, where she saw something, where the angel told her something, etc.

Ciorrection: in the conventional sense of the word to make a prophesy is to predict the future. In the Biblical sense the work of the propeht includes more than predicting the future. Have you never heard that sloppy wording breeds sloppy thinking?

The defiinition of prophet from Strong's isn't limited to one who foretells the future.

That's what I just said.

 

[Eila]

It didn't say anything about being cleaned up "before" being born again. You read way too much into the quote.

When you are born again you are sealed. The angel said tobacco users aren't sealed.

" "I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it
must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If
it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is
given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}"

 

[djconklin]

When you are born again you are sealed.

Please show the Bible verse for that.

 

[Eila]

Please show the Bible verse for that.

Ephesians 1 "13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

 

[Loveaboveall]

When you are born again you are sealed. The angel said tobacco users aren't sealed.

" "I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it
must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, "If
it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is
given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it, and he cannot be sealed with the seal of the living God." {1BIO 224.2}"

Maybe looking at what is written from a different perspective could help.

Is it possible what was mean was that those who have idols, and do not give them up cannot be sealed. If tobacco is an idol for a person, then how can they have given their WHOLE heart to God? They are still hanging on to something they cherish. How can the HS only seal part of a person? The whole person must be surrendered!

To understand the message as tobacco users cannot be sealed is to completely misunderstand the point made. IF tobacco is an idol they cannot be sealed. IDOL is the important word that must be focused on, not tobacco.

 

[Eila]

Maybe looking at what is written from a different perspective could help.

Is it possible what was mean was that those who have idols, and do not give them up cannot be sealed. If tobacco is an idol for a person, then how can they have given their WHOLE heart to God? They are still hanging on to something they cherish. How can the HS only seal part of a person? The whole person must be surrendered!

To understand the message as tobacco users cannot be sealed is to completely misunderstand the point made. IF tobacco is an idol they cannot be sealed. IDOL is the important word that must be focused on, not tobacco.

So Ellen White had no problem with occasional tobacco users? Why were tobacco users disfellowshipped?

She was also shown that those who were messy were not Christians.

" I then saw a lack of cleanliness among Sabbathkeepers. . . . I saw that God would not acknowledge an untidy and unclean person as a Christian. . . . {5MR 377.2}"

 

[Loveaboveall]

So Ellen White had no problem with occasional tobacco users? Why were tobacco users disfellowshipped?

She was also shown that those who were messy were not Christians.

" I then saw a lack of cleanliness among Sabbathkeepers. . . . I saw that God would not acknowledge an untidy and unclean person as a Christian. . . . {5MR 377.2}"

Eila,

You took a specific quote to try to prove that Mrs. White sayed something that she really did not. You don't acknowledge you were wrong, but try to twist words to still prove you are right.

You then move on to another subject because you were called out on your previous quote misinterpretation, and you take another quote to try an prove that Mrs. White said something that she does not.

This begs the question, Why should we believe anything you say about Mrs. White?

 

[Loveaboveall]

Before you pass judgment on a scripture in the bible you study everything the bible says about it. Then you can make an informed judgement about what the bible actually says regarding a specific thing. Should not this also be applied to other writings? Especially when these writings are claimed to be from God? Can you just take one phrase and say "there it is, false prophet, that is completely wrong. Maybe you should visit some of the websites that do this with the bible. You may be surprised! You will always find what you are looking for. here is some more writings on the topic of tidiness that may help you in understanding the true meaning of what is written. I pray that your heart will be softened to the Holy Spirit and His leading.


Believers should be taught that even though they may be poor, they need not be uncleanly or untidy in their persons or in their homes. Help must be given in this line to those who seem to have no sense of the meaning and importance of cleanliness. They are to be taught that those who are to represent the high and holy God must keep their souls pure and clean, and that this purity must extend to their dress, and to everything in the home, so that the ministering angels will have evidence that the truth has wrought a change in the life, purifying the soul and refining the tastes. Those who, after receiving the truth, make no change in word or deportment, in dress or surroundings, are living to themselves, not to Christ. They have not been created anew in Christ Jesus, unto purification and holiness. {RH, June 10, 1902 par. 4}

Some are very untidy in person. They need to be guided by the Holy Spirit to prepare for a pure and holy heaven. God declared that when the children of Israel came to the mount, to hear the proclamation of the law, they were to come with clean bodies and clean clothes. Today his people are to honor him by habits of scrupulous neatness and purity. {RH, June 10, 1902 par. 5}

 

[Eila]

Eila,

You took a specific quote to try to prove that Mrs. White sayed something that she really did not. You don't acknowledge you were wrong, but try to twist words to still prove you are right.

You then move on to another subject because you were called out on your previous quote misinterpretation, and you take another quote to try an prove that Mrs. White said something that she does not.

This begs the question, Why should we believe anything you say about Mrs. White?

I don't acknowledge I was wrong because I believe your interpretation is wrong based upon the writings of EGW. Please show me where EGW allowed any tobacco use.

I have quoted EGW. How am I twisting her words?

When we come to Christ we come as we are. We are not instructed to clean up our lives and get rid of habits. We come believing in the sacrifice of Jesus and accepting Him as our Savior. Then He changes us. According to the angels words we must get cleaned up before we are saved.

Didn't she consider any use of tobacco wrong? Are the angels words inconsistent with other EGW quotes?

" Were Peter upon the earth now he would exhort the professed followers of Christ to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul. And Paul would call upon the churches in general to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. And Christ would drive from the temple those who are defiled by the use of tobacco, polluting the sanctuary of God by their tobacconized breaths. He would say to these worshipers, as He did to the Jews, "My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves." We would say to such, Your unholy offerings of ejected quids of tobacco defile the temple, and are abhorred of God. Your worship is not acceptable, for your bodies which should be the temple for the Holy Ghost are defiled. You also rob the treasury of God of thousands of dollars through the indulgence of unnatural appetite.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 13, 1874. {Te 64.3}"

"He Will Not Defile God's Temple.--God desires all who believe in Him to feel the necessity of improvement. Every entrusted faculty is to be enlarged. Not one gift is to be laid aside. As God's husbandry and building, man is under His supervision in every sense of the word, and the better he becomes acquainted with his Maker, the more sacred will his life become in his estimation. He will not place tobacco in his mouth, knowing that it defiles God's temple. He will not drink wine or liquor, for, like tobacco, it degrades the whole being.--Manuscript 130, 1899."

"No man can be a true minister of righteousness, and yet be under the inspiration of sensual appetites. He cannot indulge the habit of using tobacco, and yet win souls to the platform of true temperance. The cloud of smoke coming from his lips has no salutary effect upon liquor drinkers. The gospel sermon must come from lips undefiled by tobacco smoke. With pure, clean lips God's servants must tell the triumphs of the cross. The practice of using liquor, tobacco, tea, and coffee must be overcome by the converting power of God. There shall nothing enter into the kingdom of God that defileth.-- Manuscript 86, 1897. {Te 69.2}"