Was Ellen White Really a False Prophet--2?

[woobadooba]

“Some Pharisees came, and to test him they asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote this commandment for you. But from the beginning of creation, "God made them male and female.' "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.'

So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." (Mar 10:2-9 NRSV)

Surely Moses thought that it was according to the will of God to give these people a "certificate of divorce". For, if he knew that it was against the Lord’s will he wouldn’t have done it, right?

Yet, Jesus made it very clear that it wasn’t according to the will of God that people be divorced, but that Moses commanded that this be done because of the hardness of the peoples hearts.

So it’s evident that even Moses made up some of his own rules, believing that they were of God; yet, here we find an example of a rule that he made that was not in harmony with the will of God according to Jesus.

But how do we know he believed that this was of God?

Well, notice where it's mentioned: Deut. 24:1-3. Now, if you will, take a closer look at this. You will notice that all kinds of “statutes”, “ordinances”, and “commands” are given in chapters 12-16 of Deuteronomy.

And it just so happens that in Deut. 26:16-18 Moses says, “This very day the Lord your God is commanding you to observe these statutes and ordinances; so observe them diligently with all your heart and with all your soul. Today you have obtained the Lord's agreement: to be your God; and for you to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, his commandments, and his ordinances, and to obey him.

Today the Lord has obtained your agreement: to be his treasured people, as he promised you, and to keep his commandments“ (Deu 26:16-18 NRSV) Here it is obvious that what is being referred to as "statutes", "commandments", and "ordinances" of God, are what we find in chapters 12-26.

Hence, it is evident that Moses believed that God inspired this rule for a “certificate of divorce”, since it appears with all of the other "statutes", "ordinances", and "commands" that are declared by Moses to be of God."

Yet, Jesus made it very clear that God never commanded that a "certificate of divorce be given", but that this was a command of Moses (Mk. 10:3-5), which was given because of the hardness of the hearts of the people, not because God inspired it. Yet, Moses believed it was of God.

What does this tell us

It tells us that prophets can make mistakes, and assume that God inspired something that He really didn't inspire. It tells us that prophets are human.

Again, one has to look at the core message of that person, as well as the lifestyle that that so-called prophet lived by before ruling out that he/she wasn't really a prophet of God because he/she made some kind of theological error.

If we are going to accuse Ellen White of having been a false prophet because she made the mistake of assuming something to be of God that really wasn't of God, then we would have to do the same to Moses in order to be consistent with our own belief. Of course, one doesn't have to do that if he would just admit that a prophet is human, and can make mistakes just like the rest of us.

 

[Eila]

“Some Pharisees came, and to test him they asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote this commandment for you. But from the beginning of creation, "God made them male and female.' "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.'

So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." (Mar 10:2-9 NRSV)

Surely Moses thought that it was according to the will of God to give these people a "certificate of divorce". For, if he knew that it was against the Lord’s will he wouldn’t have done it, right?

Yet, Jesus made it very clear that it wasn’t according to the will of God that people be divorced, but that Moses commanded that this be done because of the hardness of the peoples hearts.

So it’s evident that even Moses made up some of his own rules, believing that they were of God; yet, here we find an example of a rule that he made that was not in harmony with the will of God according to Jesus.

But how do we know he believed that this was of God?

Well, notice where it's mentioned: Deut. 24:1-3. Now, if you will, take a closer look at this. You will notice that all kinds of “statutes”, “ordinances”, and “commands” are given in chapters 12-16 of Deuteronomy.

And it just so happens that in Deut. 26:16-18 Moses says, “This very day the Lord your God is commanding you to observe these statutes and ordinances; so observe them diligently with all your heart and with all your soul. Today you have obtained the Lord's agreement: to be your God; and for you to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, his commandments, and his ordinances, and to obey him.

Today the Lord has obtained your agreement: to be his treasured people, as he promised you, and to keep his commandments“ (Deu 26:16-18 NRSV) Here it is obvious that what is being referred to as "statutes", "commandments", and "ordinances" of God, are what we find in chapters 12-26.

Hence, it is evident that Moses believed that God inspired this rule for a “certificate of divorce”, since it appears with all of the other "statutes", "ordinances", and "commands" that are declared by Moses to be of God."

Yet, Jesus made it very clear that God never commanded that a "certificate of divorce be given", but that this was a command of Moses (Mk. 10:3-5), which was given because of the hardness of the hearts of the people, not because God inspired it. Yet, Moses believed it was of God.

What does this tell us

It tells us that prophets can make mistakes, and assume that God inspired something that He really didn't inspire. It tells us that prophets are human.

Again, one has to look at the core message of that person, as well as the lifestyle that that so-called prophet lived by before ruling out that he/she wasn't really a prophet of God because he/she made some kind of theological error.

If we are going to accuse Ellen White of having been a false prophet because she made the mistake of assuming something to be of God that really wasn't of God, then we would have to do the same to Moses in order to be consistent with our own belief. Of course, one doesn't have to do that if he would just admit that a prophet is human, and can make mistakes just like the rest of us.

I'm not sure I can comprehend the rationale you are using to say that the command in the law was from Moses and not from God. It said that the command was given because of the hardness of their heart - but God's perfect will was that no one be divorced. Born again Christians who do not have the hardened heart are held to a higher standard.

I personally believe all of the law was from God. It was given to Moses who gave it to the people.

Believing that some of the law was personally from Moses and some from God would lead to serious questions about the validity of the inspiration of the Bible.

I've seen this idea before. To me this says that the inspiration of the Bible needs to be degraded in order for EGW's inspiration to work.

 

[woobadooba]

I'm not sure I can comprehend the rationale you are using to say that the command in the law was from Moses and not from God. It said that the command was given because of the hardness of their heart - but God's perfect will was that no one be divorced. Born again Christians who do not have the hardened heart are held to a higher standard.

I personally believe all of the law was from God. It was given to Moses who gave it to the people.

Believing that some of the law was personally from Moses and some from God would lead to serious questions about the validity of the inspiration of the Bible.

I've seen this idea before. To me this says that the inspiration of the Bible needs to be degraded in order for EGW's inspiration to work.

Jesus was clear on the idea that it was not God's will for anyone to get divorced, but that MOSES (not God), gave the people a certificate of divorce.

So you have no argument here.

At this point your only true alternative is to admit that a prophet can make a mistake.

By the way, the idea that only certain moral laws apply to certain people is foreign to the Bible. God expects everyone to follow the same moral standards as disclosed in the Bible.

 

[Eila]

Jesus was clear on the idea that it was not God's will for anyone to get divorced, but that MOSES not God, gave them a certificate of divorce.

So you have no argument here.

Yes, it was not God's perfect will that anyone get divorced, but He gave the command to Moses to allow people to get divorced because of the hardness of their heart.

At this point your only true alternative is to admit that a prophet can make a mistake.

Prophets do make mistakes. I never said they didn't. Moses hit the rock when he shouldn't have. But the Bible is clear that he shouldn't have done that. The Bible is the infallible inspired Word of God. There are no mistakes in it.

 

[woobadooba]

Yes, it was not God's perfect will that anyone get divorced, but He gave the command to Moses to allow people to get divorced because of the hardness of their heart.

So are you saying that when Jesus said Moses gave them a certificate of divorce, that He really meant to say God gave it to them?

If so, why would He then say it wasn't according to God's will? Are you trying to suggest that God would do something that is not according to His will?

Do you even realize the implication of such a thought?

 

[woobadooba]

The Bible is the infallible inspired Word of God. There are no mistakes in it.

Do you really want to go here?

And Jehovah said to Abram, Go out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father's house into a land that I will show you. And I will make you a great nation. And I will bless you and make your name great. And you shall be a blessing. And I will bless those that bless you and curse the one who curses you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. And Abram departed, even as Jehovah had spoken to him. And Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
(Gen 12:1-4 MKJV)

Then the high priest said, Then do you so hold these things? And he said, Men, brothers, and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. And He said to him, "Go out from your land and from your kindred, and come into a land which I shall show you." Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and lived in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, he moved into this land in which you now dwell.(Act 7:1-4 MKJV)

Moses recorded the history as such that God appeared to Abraham when he lived in Haran. But Peter said this happened before he lived in Haran.

Did Peter have his history right?

 

[Eila]

So are you saying that when Jesus said Moses gave them a certificate of divorce, that He really meant to say God gave it to them?

No, Jesus didn't mean to say anything different than what He said. In the law of Moses (given by God) God allowed the people to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.

If so, why would He then say it wasn't according to God's will? Are you trying to suggest that God would do something that is not according to His will?

Do you even realize the implication of such a thought?

God's will doesn't always happen. God was dealing with people who were spiritually dead. God allowed them to divorce because of the hardness of their heart. It is no secret that the standards of the old covenant law were much lower than the new covenant command.

Matthew 5 "31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."

"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Jesus raised the bar. The standards for the born again person were to be higher than the ones who had hardness of heart.

 

[woobadooba]

No, Jesus didn't mean to say anything different than what He said. In the law of Moses (given by God) God allowed the people to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.



God's will doesn't always happen. God was dealing with people who were spiritually dead. God allowed them to divorce because of the hardness of their heart. It is no secret that the standards of the old covenant law were much lower than the new covenant command.

Matthew 5 "31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."

"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Jesus raised the bar. The standards for the born again person were to be higher than the ones who had hardness of heart.

This still doesn't answer the question.

Jesus was very clear when He had said Moses gave them divorce, and that it was never God's will for people to divorce.

Just because God allows something to happen, that doesn't mean He caused it to happen, or approved of the action. God does allow us to exercise free-will. What we choose to do has no bearing on the integrity of God.

So you have no argument here. For, just as Moses made the mistake of striking the rock twice, he made the mistake of assuming that it was God's will to issue a certificate of divorce, when in fact it was never according to the will of God for this to be.

 

[Eila]

Do you really want to go here?

And Jehovah said to Abram, Go out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father's house into a land that I will show you. And I will make you a great nation. And I will bless you and make your name great. And you shall be a blessing. And I will bless those that bless you and curse the one who curses you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed. And Abram departed, even as Jehovah had spoken to him. And Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
(Gen 12:1-4 MKJV)

Then the high priest said, Then do you so hold these things? And he said, Men, brothers, and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. And He said to him, "Go out from your land and from your kindred, and come into a land which I shall show you." Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and lived in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, he moved into this land in which you now dwell.(Act 7:1-4 MKJV)

Moses recorded the history as such that God appeared to Abraham when he lived in Haran. But Peter said this happened before he lived in Haran.

Did Peter have his history right?

I see no inconsistency here. Genesis doesn't say where Abram was when God appeared to him.

I don't understand. You were upset when I mentioned that saying the inspiration of the Bible was degraded in order to make EGW's inspiration work. Yet it doesn't appear as though you believe the Bible is inspired and infallible.

 

[Eila]

This still doesn't answer the question.

Jesus was very clear when He had said Moses gave them divorce, and that it was never God's will.

Just because God allows something to happen, that doesn't mean He caused it to happen, or approved of it.

So you have no argument here. Just as Moses made the mistake of striking the rock twice, he made the mistake of assuming that it was God's will to issue a certificate of divorce.

It appears as though you and I have very different views on the inspiration of the Bible.

 

[freeindeed2]

I see no inconsistency here. Genesis doesn't say where Abram was when God appeared to him.

I don't understand. You were upset when I mentioned that saying the inspiration of the Bible was degraded in order to make EGW's inspiration work. Yet it doesn't appear as though you believe the Bible is inspired and infallible.

They don't believe it's 'infallible' in order to excuse the many problems with EGW. They believe it is 'thought' inspired and that the Bible contains many errors itself. (I just sat in on a Sabbath School lesson study on this very topic a couple weeks ago. It's part of the subject of the current 'study'.)

 

[woobadooba]

It appears as though you and I have very different views on the inspiration of the Bible.

I agree.

I am of the view that a prophet is capable of making a theological error, and you are of the view that this isn't possible.

 

[woobadooba]

They don't believe it's 'infallible' in order to excuse the many problems with EGW. They believe it is 'thought' inspired and that the Bible contains many errors itself. (I just sat in on a Sabbath School lesson study on this very topic a couple weeks ago. It's part of the subject of the current 'study'.)

We don't believe the Bible contains many errors. We believe that the Bible does contain some errors. There is a difference.

And we don't capitalize on these errors to prove that Ellen White was inspired, as Eila appears to be implying. Those of us who understand these things are merely trying to open people's eyes to the nature of inspiration.

Some are willing to see the truth, and others just aren't ready to see it.

 

[Eila]

I agree.

I am of the view that a prophet is capable of making a theological error, and you are of the view that this isn't possible.

Not exactly. I do believe a prophet is capable of making a theological error, but not when prophecying. Prophets are to be judged by the Bible. If a prophecy goes against the Bible it is either made up by the person or from another source other than God. If the Bible is not the infallible standard then what standard do you use to judge whether a prophecy is from God or not?

I don't think I was really a "thought-inspiration" believer when I was an SDA. Thought inspiration is far from what I believe now.

 

[woobadooba]

I see no inconsistency here. Genesis doesn't say where Abram was when God appeared to him.

I think you have a valid point here.

However, this is what the Bible says: "And Abram departed, even as Jehovah had spoken to him. And Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran"

It does not say Abram waited for a period of time to act according to God's will in this regard, or that he first moved to Haran before departing from the place that God wanted him to leave.

"Abram departed, even as Jehovah had spoken to him" suggests that he did not hesitate to do what God had commanded of him. It also states that he "departed from Haran", which seems to indicate that God appeared to him while he was in Haran to disclose this message to him.

But like I had said, you do have a valid point. At the same time however, I think I have a valid point too. I suppose we will just have to wait until we see Jesus in person to find out the 'absolute' answer to this one.

 

[woobadooba]

Not exactly. I do believe a prophet is capable of making a theological error, but not when prophecying. Prophets are to be judged by the Bible. If a prophecy goes against the Bible it is either made up by the person or from another source other than God. If the Bible is not the infallible standard then what standard do you use to judge whether a prophecy is from God or not?

I don't think I was really a "thought-inspiration" believer when I was an SDA. Thought inspiration is far from what I believe now.

I'm not saying the 'message' of the Bible isn't infallible. I'm saying that the Bible as written by men of God is not infallible. It does contain some errors (not many). In other words, the core message of the Bible is infallible, but the words themselves which the prophets used to disclose this message are not necessarily God's 'choice' words.

For example, when David said, "Jehovah tries the righteous; but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence,"
(Psa 11:5 MKJV)

Did God inspire David to use such words in describing how He feels about the wicked?

How could we believe that God inspired David to use the word "hate", while knowing that Jesus (God) had said, "Love your enemies"?

Is the Bible really inspired word for word in its totality, or thought inspired in its totality?

There is an answer as to why David used the word "hate" here, but that is a subject for another thread.

 

[Eila]

I'm not saying the message of the Bible isn't an infallible standard. I'm saying that the Bible as written by men of God is not infallible. It does contain some errors (not many).

For example, when David said, "Jehovah tries the righteous; but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence,"
(Psa 11:5 MKJV)

Did God inspire David to use such words in describing how He feels about the wicked?

How could we believe that God inspired David to use the word "hate", while knowing that Jesus (God) had said, "Love your enemies"?

Is the Bible really inspired word for word in its totality, or thought inspired in its totality?

Yes, word for word in its totality. We approach passages differently. If I see an inconsistency - the problem is with my understanding. It appears when you see an inconsistency - the problem is with the inspiration.

 

[woobadooba]

Just to let those of you who are looking at this thread know, I am willing to re-examine my position.

The question is, are you willing to do the same thing with yours?

 

[woobadooba]

Yes, word for word in its totality. We approach passages differently. If I see an inconsistency - the problem is with my understanding. It appears when you see an inconsistency - the problem is with the inspiration.

I don't see a problem with inspiration.

Again, I believe that the Bible is fully inspired by God.

Having said that, there are certain portions of it where you will find a "thus says the Lord", which means that portion is inspired word for word. However, not every word in the Bible is God's choice word for the thought that is being disclosed. I think I demonstrated that quite well with the words of David.

Does this mean I don't agree that the Bible is fully inspired by God? No. It means there is something more to the nature of inspiration than what you are willing to see at this time.

 

[Eila]

I don't see a problem with inspiration.

Again, I believe that the Bible is fully inspired by God.

Having said that, there are certain portions of it where you will find a "thus says the Lord", which means that portion is inspired word for word. However, not every word in the Bible is God's choice word for the thought that is being disclosed.

Dos this mean I don't agree that the Bible is fully inspired by God? No. It means there is something more to the nature of inspiration than what you are willing to see at this time.

The infallible inspired Word of God is the very basis of my Christian walk. If I find an error it is with me, not the Word of God.

These pretty much sums up my viewpoint

John 1 " 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

2 Timothy 3 "16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"