Was Adam perfect before the fall ?

[Brother-Mike]

Many points that you raise here Bling seem wildly contradictory to my understanding, and I'm guessing that others will weigh in too with questions of their own. But when I get out the magnifying glass, at least some of your points don't appear to be that different, especially when I put on my "Free-will" Arminian X-ray goggles with the red-lenses where half of the Bible seems to be underscoring creaturely-freedom and agency. Below are some quibbles and questions:

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Scripture reference please?

Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not fulfill their earthly objective in what we might consider an ideal situation.

Scripture reference please?

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

Nothing. Sorry Arminians, but an all-powerful, all-seeing God outside of time could have seen all of the free-will evil, natural or otherwise, and prevented it all from happening.

An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action.

So God chooses to allow individuals to reject him, thus damning themselves to eternal punishment, rather than be accused of treating them like robots? Who is God answering to in this accusation? The clay pot?

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

No doubt!

 

[Fervent]

Your questions require a huge amount of investigation to adequately answer, both Biblically and by unpacking theological history. An important question to consider is whether something was added, or something was lost in the fall? And if human nature was inherently sinful, how could Jesus have been made like unto His brothers in every way? To me it seems total depravity must be rejected because it wounds the doctrine of the incarnation.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hello Friends,

I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.

It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.

That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.

This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.

In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?

Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???

Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.

The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

Adam and Eve were created good but incomplete. God gave them one command, which they disobeyed. As a result, they died spiritually. The principle of the human race is now that of "good and evil". Since most people think that they are inherently good, they continue to reject God's judgement.

Any believer who thinks that their actions are essentially unrighteous has little idea what the salvation of God is about. In one way they are correct. God still declares our righteousness to be filthy rags. However, we have a righteousness that is perfect, cannot be in any way defiled and is perfectly acceptable to God. It's nothing to do with us. It is God's gift - Christ in us the hope of glory.

Much preaching is back to front. It promotes a gospel something like "fix up your behaviour, attend church and pay your tithes, and you will be acceptable to God". In reality, in spite of what outward appearances may suggest. we are complete in Christ. God can do nothing more for us. We have everything that pertains to godliness right now (2 Peter 1:3).

If Christians were taught who they are in Christ and who Christ is in them, many problems would evaporate. It becomes more, "Since these things are true, how about living in the light of being a new creation, a brand new man?" Gross sin should be an exception. And if someone is caught up in sin, then they should be exhorted to turn away from it.


What Adam and Eve lacked was spiritual life. This was available through the Tree of Life. Once they sinned, the Tree of Life was closed to them. The only way to Life now is in and through Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:22, "In Adam, all die, in Christ all will be made alive". And that is the question for all humanity: are you in Adam still or in Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

No, Paul is addressing the carnal and spiritual believer

He never mentions "carnal believer" in the entire chapter of Rom 8.

In that Rom 8 example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello Friends,

I am interested in some discussion around what was lost during the fall.

It seems as if 'to the innocent all things are innocent' applied to Adam and Eve, created good, yet fell.

That begs the question as to if total depravity of man, if you believe in it, is part of the curse of the fall.

This then leads us to conclude that after the fall, man was not fully human, having lost the innocence of Adam.

In Christ then, our humanness is fully restored?

Finally the conclusion is that the unsaved are not fully human ???

Bare with me - I am presenting questions - I am sure about the vast chasm between our so called righteousness and the Holiness of God.

But I am unsure about the concept of total depravity and what that means, given the way God described Job and the favour Noah found.

The reason I am raising this is because total depravity can lead to believers failing to act as they perceive all their efforts as essentially unrighteous.

If Adam & Eve were perfect (having no sinful nature) before the fall they wouldn’t have sinned to begin with. Because they sinned having never sinned before that is evidence that they weren’t perfect before they sinned.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your making this rather complicated and I am certain you will recieve comments that add to that rather than simplify your query.

God made man in His image ( only) . Only to bring spirituality to the flesh. He could have stopped at the animals, but He did not. He made man for Himself.
God walked with Adam and Eve in the beginning with His Holy Spirit ,giving them every opportunity to stay in Him . He also granted them free will to do what they pleased. They chose a path that was unpleasing to God yet , God still provided for them.

Depravity is a folklore at best. We are not deprived because He is here when we call upon Him. He gave His only begotten Son to restore His relationship with us. This is pure love for His creation in His image.

There is no chasm there is a bridge to which few are willing to Cross.
Blessings.

Amen, I gather from God’s conversation with Cain that it appears that Cain did not seem the least bit surprised that God was talking to him. In my opinion this seems to suggest that they probably spoke often.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In light of what is found in the Bible, Ro 8:7-8:
"the sinful mind is hostile to God, It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (unregenerate) cannot please God,"
the term "depravity" is most accurate.

Paul is saying that those who set their mind on the flesh cannot subject themselves to the law and cannot please God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How about responding to Ro 8:7-8, or 1Co 2:14, or Jn 3:3-5.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is about Christians who are immature in their faith. Continue reading the next 5 verses.

“But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. But the one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. “And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people, but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to consume it. But even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like ordinary people?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 - 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

 

[BNR32FAN]

How about responding to Ro 8:7-8, or 1Co 2:14, or Jn 3:3-5.

John 3:3 simply says a person must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. John 3:16 however says that God so loved THE WORLD. It doesn’t say He so loved the elect. And WHOSOEVER believes in Him not whosoever God elected to believe in Him. He sent His Son to save THE WORLD. He paid for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. The Father sent His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, Paul is addressing the carnal and spiritual believer

No he’s not. Where does he mention carnal believers? He making a contrast between believers and unbelievers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Adam and Eve did obtain additional “knowledge” that was passed down to all of us in the form of a conscience, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

This world as it exists right now is the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective, while as we learn from the Adam and Eve story the Garden is a lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective. We can thus be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through that situation and allowing us to learn from them. Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not fulfill their earthly objective in what we might consider an ideal situation.

Here is the question:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Man just cannot by man’s own power continue forever in obedience and that is what our best all human representatives (Adam and Eve) showed us early on in their story.

Yes, lots of things were “cursed” by God to provide limited resources, pain, death, and hardship, but these things also helped humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

God is doing all He can to help us choose His Love over selfish love, but it has to be a real choice (no gun to the head).

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).



What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?



Again there are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

This seems like a lot of human sentiment and logic but it’s not biblical. Paul specifically said that thru Adam’s sin resulted the condemnation of all mankind.

“So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Through Adam’s sin we all inherited his sinful nature which resulted in our own sins which condemned us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Any believer who thinks that their actions are essentially unrighteous has little idea what the salvation of God is about. In one way they are correct. God still declares our righteousness to be filthy rags. However, we have a righteousness that is perfect, cannot be in any way defiled and is perfectly acceptable to God. It's nothing to do with us. It is God's gift - Christ in us the hope of glory.

Not true brother, once we come to Christ the stain of our sins have been cleansed and our works are pleasing in His sight.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam and Eve were created good but incomplete. God gave them one command, which they disobeyed. As a result, they died spiritually. The principle of the human race is now that of "good and evil". Since most people think that they are inherently good, they continue to reject God's judgement.

Any believer who thinks that their actions are essentially unrighteous has little idea what the salvation of God is about. In one way they are correct. God still declares our righteousness to be filthy rags. However, we have a righteousness that is perfect, cannot be in any way defiled and is perfectly acceptable to God. It's nothing to do with us. It is God's gift - Christ in us the hope of glory.

Much preaching is back to front. It promotes a gospel something like "fix up your behaviour, attend church and pay your tithes, and you will be acceptable to God". In reality, in spite of what outward appearances may suggest. we are complete in Christ. God can do nothing more for us. We have everything that pertains to godliness right now (2 Peter 1:3).

If Christians were taught who they are in Christ and who Christ is in them, many problems would evaporate. It becomes more, "Since these things are true, how about living in the light of being a new creation, a brand new man?" Gross sin should be an exception. And if someone is caught up in sin, then they should be exhorted to turn away from it.


What Adam and Eve lacked was spiritual life. This was available through the Tree of Life. Once they sinned, the Tree of Life was closed to them. The only way to Life now is in and through Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:22, "In Adam, all die, in Christ all will be made alive". And that is the question for all humanity: are you in Adam still or in Christ?

The tree of life was closed off to them because God didn’t want man to live forever after the fall.

“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nothing. Sorry Arminians, but an all-powerful, all-seeing God outside of time could have seen all of the free-will evil, natural or otherwise, and prevented it all from happening.

Not without compromising free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So God chooses to allow individuals to reject him, thus damning themselves to eternal punishment, rather than be accused of treating them like robots? Who is God answering to in this accusation? The clay pot?

What value would love have without free will?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Synod of Dort in 1619 spoke about total depravity - those serious about the matter could read this so we are on the same page as to what it means theologically.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK a few matters in response...

I don't think Adam fell because he was imperfect but because he was human and hadn't encountered evil...

Sickness came after the fall and that was part of the curse.

In Christ we are a new creation and appropriate a much more glorious persona than Adam ever was.

Even then my best efforts at righteousness are far short of God's Holiness.

Only His imputed righteousness will stand in judgement.

However our deeds done in the Spirit of Christ will stand the test of fire and qualify for eternal reward.

Deep repentance comes from seeing the chasm between His Holiness and our so called righteousness (think Isaiah 6)

This is an experience all believers should seek - embracing this weakness is a key to spiritual strength.

Some claim this is a revelation of total depravity ...

5 Then I said,

“Woe to me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of armies.”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your guilt is taken away and atonement is made for your sin.”

@Aussie Pete I think God gave Adam and Eve more than one command.

Man in his original state was in communion with God and this was lost. Being born again puts us back on the path towards restoring the communion that was intended for us.

Man has only ever had limited free will and God's choosing prevails - not because His salvation is forced on us, but because the Holy Spirit calls and gives the grace to respond. To the chosen His love is irresistible.

Lastly in my younger days I was advised not to ask God for brokenness... advice I ignored.

He answered my prayer in a much deeper way than I could anticipate - once broken one knows that it is all of Him and zero of us.

Sorry if I am rambling - it is late here...

 

[d taylor]

He never mentions "carnal believer" in the entire chapter of Rom 8.

In that Rom 8 example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

Try reading chapter one. The whole book of Romans is written to believers

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

He never mentions "carnal believer" in the entire chapter of Rom 8.

Try reading chapter one. The whole book of Romans is written to believers

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Another good example of a text that does not mention "carnal believer".

But to your point - "does some other text in all of scripture mention someone who is a believer and carnal?" yes... just not chapter 8.

In the book of Romans - Paul writes to believers about two groups of people in Rom 8.. the saved, and the lost.

In that Rom 8 example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

 

[BobRyan]

OK a few matters in response...

I don't think Adam fell because he was imperfect but because he was human and hadn't encountered evil...

All the sinless angels were at one time sinless beings that had not encountered evil. When evil came in some fell and some did not.
That fact "alone" did not determine who would fall.

Sickness came after the fall and that was part of the curse.

yes sickness, death, decay and "corruption" as we see in Rom 8.

In Christ we are a new creation

Yes a new creation having a new heart and yet also still having the old man-of-sin sinful nature "sin IN me at war with the law of my mind".

Something the sinless Adam never had - was a sinful nature at war with the law of his mind

Man in his original state was in communion with God and this was lost. Being born again puts us back on the path towards restoring the communion that was intended for us.

amen to that.

Man has only ever had limited free will and God's choosing prevails - not because His salvation is forced on us, but because the Holy Spirit calls and gives the grace to respond. To the chosen His love is irresistible.

No text says God's calling or God's love is "irresistible".

John 12:32 God "draws all mankind to Himself" but in fact "most resist" Matt 7.