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Was Adam perfect before the fall ?

BobRyan

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I guess the term Carnal believer which doesn't occur in scripture suggests the Elect can be carnal - this is what I object to. Carnal means being animal - particularly sexually - an offensive term.

I have no problem with suggesting unbelievers can be 'carnal' but the Elect - no.

While I do object when people insert "carnal" into chapters that don't have it - such as in Rom 8.

yet there are other chapters that talk about the topic - such as 1 Cor 3

(Though I am still not clear on what if anything this has to do with the thread topic).

In 1 Cor 3 -- Paul defines carnal as "saved, babes in Christ" who have a lot of growing to do.

1 Cor 3:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Romans 8 speaks of saved vs lost. Where the lost are not in Christ at all.

In 1 Cor 3 - the carnal Christian is a "babe IN CHRIST" who is fed on the milk of the Gospel by Paul himself. His complaint is that they exhibit strong influences in their sinful nature like a babe in Christ - not that they are "the lost, who are at war with God, and are not in Christ at all".
 
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BobRyan

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Back to topic - Was Adam perfect before the fall ???
Amen to that!

The "fall of Adam" -- is a fall from a sinless state.

If God created Adam "fallen" , sinful, with a bent to evil - then Adam fell from what? nothing? The bent to evil that God made him with? That changes the gospel message. The "sign" that they are carnal according to Paul is the degree to which they still manifest the workings of the sinful nature. The bent towards rebellion.
 
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BobRyan

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"Apart from Me, you can do nothing". That means what it says. The works that originate from self are nothing in God's sight. Read 1 Corinthians 3:12 also. Much that many Christians boast about will be judged as worthless because it was initiated by them and not by God.
In 1 Cor 3:1-5 a carnal believer is called "a babe in Christ" feeding on the milk of the Gospel just as Paul has given it.
 
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d taylor

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I guess the term Carnal believer which doesn't occur in scripture suggests the Elect can be carnal - this is what I object to. Carnal means being animal - particularly sexually - an offensive term.

I have no problem with suggesting unbelievers can be 'carnal' but the Elect - no.

Well we will just have to disagree.
 
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d taylor

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thanks. otherwise it looks to me like a false accusation on your part. Having some fact would be helpful

My understanding of your use of the word faith is that faith is the same as obedience. So when you say you have faith in God for salvation you are meaning that faith = obedience to God for salvation. Especially to God's law. We had a back and forth awhile back about taking God's name in vain. My understanding of the way you were using this was that a true believer would not use God's name in vain.
 
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Clare73

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Paul is saying that those who set their mind on the flesh cannot subject themselves to the law and cannot please God.
That is what the unregenerate do---set their mind on the flesh.
 
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Clare73

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1 Corinthians 2:14 is about Christians who are immature in their faith. Continue reading the next 5 verses.

“But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. But the one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. “And I, brothers and sisters, could not speak to you as spiritual people, but only as fleshly, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to consume it. But even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like ordinary people?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 - 1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1Co 2:14 is about those without the Spirit; i.e., the unregenerate.
 
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Clare73

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John 3:3 simply says a person must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. John 3:16 however says that God so loved THE WORLD. It doesn’t say He so loved the elect. And WHOSOEVER believes in Him not whosoever God elected to believe in Him. He sent His Son to save THE WORLD. He paid for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. The Father sent His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
The unregenerate are spiritually blind, they must be born again to be able to even see the kingdom of God.
 
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BNR32FAN

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"Apart from Me, you can do nothing". That means what it says. The works that originate from self are nothing in God's sight. Read 1 Corinthians 3:12 also. Much that many Christians boast about will be judged as worthless because it was initiated by them and not by God.

Like I said the works we do after we come to Christ are pleasing to God. I never said we could please God apart from Christ. The works that originate from God are useless if we don’t do them, when we do them they are pleasing in His sight.
 
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BNR32FAN

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1Co 2:14 is about those without the Spirit; i.e., the unregenerate.

No it’s not, it’s in reference to those who set their mind on the flesh and not on the Spirit. Do you think it’s just a coincidence that he made this statement right before correcting the carnal Corinthians? There’s nothing in the surrounding context that indicates this was in reference to unbelievers or unregenerate people. There is however evidence to support that it was in reference to immature carnal believers.
 
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Clare73

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No it’s not, it’s in reference to those who set their mind on the flesh and not on the Spirit. Do you think it’s just a coincidence that he made this statement right before correcting the carnal Corinthians? There’s nothing in the surrounding context that indicates this was in reference to unbelievers or unregenerate people. There is however evidence to support that it was in reference to immature carnal believers.
The "natural man" in Paul's writing is the unregenerate, the man without the Spirit (Ro 8:6-9).
The "spiritual man" in Paul's writing is the regenerate.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That is what the unregenerate do---set their mind on the flesh.

It’s also what the Corinthians did in 1 Corinthians. He began talking about their boasting and arguing about being a follower of Apollos or follower of Paul in chapter 1 then mentions it again in chapter 3. All three chapters are about carnal Christians boasting & arguing and again in chapter 5 he mentions their boasting about the one committing sexual immorality with his father’s wife. The Corinthians were not unregenerate they were carnal Christians.
 
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BNR32FAN

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1Co 2:14 is about those without the Spirit; i.e., the unregenerate.

Where does Paul mention anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit? He doesn’t say anything about people without the Spirit in 1 Cor 2
 
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BNR32FAN

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The "natural man" in Paul's writing is the unregenerate, the man without the Spirit (Ro 8:6-9).
The "spiritual man" in Paul's writing is the regenerate.

“for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like ordinary people?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Are you not walking like ordinary people (like mere men)”?

They were walking like mere men because they were not spiritually discerned, their focus was on boasting and worldly recognition, not on the Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The unregenerate are spiritually blind, they must be born again to be able to even see the kingdom of God.

They’re spiritually blind to the guidance of the Holy Spirit because they don’t have the Holy Spirit but they are not spiritually blind to the gospel unless they by their own choice choose to reject it.
 
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Clare73

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It’s also what the Corinthians did in 1 Corinthians. He began talking about their boasting and arguing about being a follower of Apollos or follower of Paul in chapter 1 then mentions it again in chapter 3. All three chapters are about carnal Christians boasting & arguing and again in chapter 5 he mentions their boasting about the one committing sexual immorality with his father’s wife. The Corinthians were not unregenerate they were carnal Christians.
Yes, Paul is addressing their divisions and the causes by their wrong conceptions, one of them being a wrong conception of the gospel, which he is clarifying there.
 
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Clare73

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“for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like ordinary people?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Are you not walking like ordinary people (like mere men)”?

They were walking like mere men because they were not spiritually discerned, their focus was on boasting and worldly recognition, not on the Spirit.

Paul is presenting there a correct understanding of the gospel.
 
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Clare73

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They’re spiritually blind to the guidance of the Holy Spirit because they don’t have the Holy Spirit but they are not spiritually blind to the gospel unless they by their own choice choose to reject it.
One can't even see, much less believe in, the kingdom of God until he is born again (Jn 3:3-5).
 
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