Warning! Hell thread.

[HopefulHepatica]

That's man's way too, we believe it's our right and our freedom to question and be our own savior, our own god. That's what happened in the fall, we decided we wanted more, and lost the gift of being attached to God (when we were complete). God honored our choice, because of free will, and that in true love, you must be given the choice to love. God could've made us subservient and forcibly obey, but there's no love in that.

By choosing this life, we're forever seeking the piece of ourselves that was ripped out in the Fall (the connection to God, our creator). In the end, this way of thinking, it won't save us. When man judges God, it's just...silly. Who are we to say what God does, isn't right? We have no power, we did not create life nor do we have any say in when life enters and when life leaves this world or in how. When you sympathize Lucifer, you're missing the point, and falling right into the same cycle of destruction by finding a reason to resist God.

I think the hardest part for most people, is being able to accept things they cannot control or that there are just things in existence we do not know and cannot understand. We prefer to cling to this idea that WE have control, WE have power, and WE must have knowledge of all things because of fear of something greater to hold us accountable. It's hard for humanity to bend the knee, so to speak, to allow anything to have authority over us or accept that there is a way beyond our own. Yet in the end, that is the only thing that will set us free from this cycle of self-destruction. The logic of thinking for yourself, not being sheep, applies to men dealing with other men. We SHOULD think for ourselves and not follow blindly other MEN, but this does not apply with God. We ARE His sheep, we are always and will always be sheep, because it was how we were created: to be led.

I like how God purposely chose things and significant events in the bible that appear ridiculous or impossible or don't make sense logically, that some men will spend their entire lives questioning, when all God asked was that we know HE is God, and therefore what is impossible for us, is possible for Him, and that all He asks is that we have Faith.

 

[Trimeresurus]

That's man's way too, we believe it's our right and our freedom to question and be our own savior, our own god. That's what happened in the fall, we decided we wanted more, and lost the gift of being attached to God (when we were complete). God honored our choice, because of free will, and that in true love, you must be given the choice to love. God could've made us subservient and forcibly obey, but there's no love in that.

By choosing this life, we're forever seeking the piece of ourselves that was ripped out in the Fall (the connection to God, our creator). In the end, this way of thinking, it won't save us. When man judges God, it's just...silly. Who are we to say what God does, isn't right? We have no power, we did not create life nor do we have any say in when life enters and when life leaves this world or in how. When you sympathize Lucifer, you're missing the point, and falling right into the same cycle of destruction by finding a reason to resist God.

I think the hardest part for most people, is being able to accept things they cannot control or that there are just things in existence we do not know and cannot understand. We prefer to cling to this idea that WE have control, WE have power, and WE must have knowledge of all things because of fear of something greater to hold us accountable. It's hard for humanity to bend the knee, so to speak, to allow anything to have authority over us or accept that there is a way beyond our own.

I like how God purposely chose things and significant events in the bible that appear ridiculous or impossible or don't make sense logically, that some men will spend their entire lives questioning, when all God asked was that we know HE is God, and therefore what is impossible for us, is possible for Him, and that all He asks is that we have Faith.

You are judging my god too.
Evil is not done because someone is questioning things. It's because people don't question things and follow. You can't understand everything but the more we understand the better we can interact with each other. There is no leader that should not be questioned. That's the chaos people are fearing, it's a destrucitve energy. If I go any further with this it will be marked ad blasphemy. So that's a good point to stop.

 

[Project Panda]

I feel that it's God's PLAN for heaven, that sin cannot enter. He wants to separate humanity from sin, but at that time, humans weren't in heaven. As sin emanates from Satan, so perhaps that's where it started? As he was in heaven, it was there with him. I'm unclear myself if it came from him directly, since he was given power and so he felt he was "like" god, and is the origin of it. I've also heard that it was a neutral entity that influenced him first, and was just there, but it makes more sense if it came from Satan, as with him gone, the influence is gone too. I've heard both theories. I'm only human though, haha, it's not like I know for sure that part of it. From here it's mostly theory. This has been a very interesting conversation, things for me to think about too. Thanks friend

For right or for wrong whatever biblical belief's you hold aren't things that you invented, you have just accepted what you read as truth. That truth was given to someone else a long long time ago for people to believe. Say I don't believe what Christian's say about hell, heaven, God, Jesus, prophecy ect ect, then I don't believe the people in age's past who said it. It really has nothing to do with those who believe it now.

 

[Spikey]

I don't see eternal existence as pointless, I see it as more meaningful than this life. As an Atheist, you may be familiar with string theory, where the world as we know it is compared to a 3d hologram run off "strings" from a 7 or 8d source.

...I think our souls are reborn after death, in a much more 'real' place. A place where the full spectrum of colors can be seen -the source of reality.

The problem I have is that it's just speculation.. "I think our souls are reborn after death" means nothing to me. There is to my knowledge no evidence of this, so trying to imagine where our souls may end up is pointless.
It's kind of like dreaming of where Neverland is, without a Peter Pan or a Tinkerbell to put there.

 

[Project Panda]

The problem I have is that it's just speculation.. "I think our souls are reborn after death" means nothing to me. There is to my knowledge no evidence of this, so trying to imagine where our souls may end up is pointless.
It's kind of like dreaming of where Neverland is, without a Peter Pan or a Tinkerbell to put there.

Matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Matter is recyclable, and energy is changeable.

 

[Spikey]

Matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Matter is recyclable, and energy is changeable.

I prefer the Peter Pan argument, much more simple...

 

[Project Panda]

I'll tell you an experience I had when I was in my early 20's

I attended a conference about relationships, I was there with my step mother. The conference went on for hours and frankly I was bored (I was way in the back row and couldn't hear what the speaker was saying) After it was over my step mother told me to go up to the woman who gave the conference and thank her. I just wanted to leave, but I did as she said, I tried to approach her but there were other people getting in my way.

I waited until I could talk, then she gave me this strange smile, I then hurried to the exit. I walked through the door and bam! I felt a lighting bolt hit me in the back of my head. I passed out instantly and then I was standing in a endless white landscape, I could feel that everything there was made from love. I thought to myself "I never want to leave here"

Then everything faded from view and my eyesight came back online, I was falling down the stairs, but a few people grabbed a hold of me before I hit the floor. I still remember this experience, which I call a near life experience. I've never felt anything so powerful, so life changing like this in any religion.

 

[Spikey]

Why do you think this happened to you? Where has it taken you to in your head? It's quite refreshing to read your last sentence, normally these types of stories turn into an argument for one religion or another.

 

[Project Panda]

Why do you think this happened to you? Where has it taken you to in your head? It's quite refreshing to read your last sentence, normally these types of stories turn into an argument for one religion or another.

It's a glimpse of something, something beyond this physical reality. It seemed I was somewhere else in my mind, or my mind was someplace else. This experience has held me like glue, when thing's in my life eventually fell apart.

 

[Spikey]

Okay, but what about the masses who will never get a glimpse of this other reality? Are we expected to just take your word for it? There's never a level playing field, it's always just a select few who get to see or experience these things. That's why I asked why you think this happened to you, why not me?
I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just curious to know why some of us are kept in the dark?
Let's say for arguments sake, we are all heading somewhere after our death, somewhere that is not religion dependent, so why don't we ALL have the same experience that you were lucky enough to have?
And surely if our afterlife or whatever it is, does depend upon our beliefs, the atheists should be at the top of the list to receive these life changing experiences, if we are indeed loved by a God.

 

[Project Panda]

Okay, but what about the masses who will never get a glimpse of this other reality? Are we expected to just take your word for it? There's never a level playing field, it's always just a select few who get to see or experience these things. That's why I asked why you think this happened to you, why not me?
I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just curious to know why some of us are kept in the dark?
Let's say for arguments sake, we are all heading somewhere after our death, somewhere that is not religion dependent, so why don't we ALL have the same experience that you were lucky enough to have?
And surely if our afterlife or whatever it is, does depend upon our beliefs, the atheists should be at the top of the list to receive these life changing experiences, if we are indeed loved by a God.

It was the place that was made of love, there was nothing else there and I didn't see anyone. Why me? I don't know. I can tell you though, at that time I wasn't a believer in any religion.

 

[Spikey]

I see that you have identified as a seeker. Have you managed to find and catch the golden snitch yet

 

[Project Panda]

I see that you have identified as a seeker. Have you managed to find and catch the golden snitch yet

Only in electric dreams.

 

[afishamongmany]

As sin emanates from Satan, so perhaps that's where it started? As he was in heaven, it was there with him. I'm unclear myself if it came from him directly, since he was given power and so he felt he was "like" god, and is the origin of it.

Hello HopefulHepatica - Welcome to CF.
Read and pray through Ezekiel 28. This is about the clearest revelation given to us about the origin of evil. Is it clear enough for us? No, but it is what we have been given. We always want to know more than we are able to understand.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28
Go well
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

I'll tell you an experience I had when I was in my early 20's

I attended a conference about relationships, I was there with my step mother. The conference went on for hours and frankly I was bored (I was way in the back row and couldn't hear what the speaker was saying) After it was over my step mother told me to go up to the woman who gave the conference and thank her. I just wanted to leave, but I did as she said, I tried to approach her but there were other people getting in my way.

I waited until I could talk, then she gave me this strange smile, I then hurried to the exit. I walked through the door and bam! I felt a lighting bolt hit me in the back of my head. I passed out instantly and then I was standing in a endless white landscape, I could feel that everything there was made from love. I thought to myself "I never want to leave here"

Then everything faded from view and my eyesight came back online, I was falling down the stairs, but a few people grabbed a hold of me before I hit the floor. I still remember this experience, which I call a near life experience. I've never felt anything so powerful, so life changing like this in any religion.

Hello Project Panda - welcome to CF.
It would be helpful to know the spiritual context of your experience. Who was organizing the conference? What was the spiritual standing (religion?) of your stepmother and the lady who gave you the strange smile?

I have a friend who many years ago had "an experience". He is convinced that he came into God's presence and was spoken to by God. Interestingly he used the same words as you, "I never wanted to leave there". He also said that 'Jesus' was present and part of this experience. All these years later this experience is still the basis of his 'beliefs' about God, life and the universe. Beliefs that can be summed up under the heading of unitarian universalism.
It is quite certain to me that this experience was real, it happen, was not an imagining. It is also quite certain to me that it was not God he met with. Why am I so certain? After he recounted his experience I asked him what significance did the crucifixion of Jesus Christ have for him personally. His response was, that for him, it did not mean much.
It is only because of the bloody cross of Christ that anyone is able to come into God's presence.
Those who seek will find.
><>

 

[Project Panda]

Hello Project Panda - welcome to CF.
It would be helpful to know the spiritual context of your experience. Who was organizing the conference? What was the spiritual standing (religion?) of your stepmother and the lady who gave you the strange smile?

I have a friend who many years ago had "an experience". He is convinced that he came into God's presence and was spoken to by God. Interestingly he used the same words as you, "I never wanted to leave there". He also said that 'Jesus' was present and part of this experience. All these years later this experience is still the basis of his 'beliefs' about God, life and the universe. Beliefs that can be summed up under the heading of unitarian universalism.
It is quite certain to me that this experience was real, it happen, was not an imagining. It is also quite certain to me that it was not God he met with. Why am I so certain? After he recounted his experience I asked him what significance did the crucifixion of Jesus Christ have for him personally. His response was, that for him, it did not mean much.
It is only because of the bloody cross of Christ that anyone is able to come into God's presence.
Those who seek will find.
><>

I can say that there's no second hand information in my experience, it comes directly from the source (Myself)

 

[afishamongmany]

I can say that there's no second hand information in my experience, it comes directly from the source (Myself)

Sorry PP but your reply is a bit too cryptic for me.
I'm guessing, but do you mean that because my friend's 'experience' is second hand to me (and third hand to you) that it has no value in the discussion??
My purpose in mentioning it was to raise the point that all 'experiences' need to be correctly understood as well as experienced. What was the 'information' of your experience?
Go well
><>

 

[ViaCrucis]

For those who are going to hell, will it be a state of being or an actual place of fiery torment? If it's a state of being, does that mean if you die content you will remain content? If it's a fiery place of torment, how exactly are those people tormented?

There is no definitive Christian position on Hell. Both of the ideas you present in your question have been believed by Christians over the centuries, and today.

I personally tend toward the Eastern Orthodox view, Hell isn't a location but is instead what it looks like when people experience God's light and love in opposition to God. That is, the difference between "Heaven" and "Hell" isn't location, but how one responds to God's love. The classic example of this idea can be found in the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian, who speaks of God's love as impartial, as God who is Love withholds His love from none; however the distinction and difference is that the saints experience God's love as joy, but the wicked experience God's love as anguish. Isaac compares the torment of God's love as being analogous to remorse. As such God's love is not itself an external agent of torment, but rather the torment is interior--those in Hell are tormented by their own sin, intensified by the flame of God's love and kindness.

Another influence on my thinking here is C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce, which I highly recommend at least as an interesting read, it a fascinating look at how Lewis wrestles and contemplates these subjects in the form of a narrative.

I think the best way to try and articulate something about "Hell" is to emphasize what it is that the historic Christian faith teaches about salvation and the ultimate purposes God has for creation. The Christian religion does not say that we get to go to some place called "Heaven" as disembodied ghosts for all eternity, strumming harps on clouds; but that Christ will return one day as Judge of the living and the dead, that the dead will be resurrected, and God will make all things new. We look forward to the Age to Come, the renewal and restoration of all creation. "Hell", therefore, is what it looks like when people reject God's good creation, to seek to cease being the God-bearing creation of God. Hell is not about God sending people to some bad place where devils poke them with pitchforks for eternity; Hell is about human beings created in God's image denying that image and ultimately refusing to partake in any of the goodness of God and His creation. The only way this can be truly described is as a kind of "second death" as St. John does in his Apocalypse, a lake burning with sulfur and fire into which even Death and Hades themselves are cast.

What happens when a person locks themselves up in their own prison, guards the key, and turns out all the lights, to hide and dwell in their own private isolation of themselves--shrinking, descending into almost nothing at all. Not by some external punishment, not by being poked or prodded, or literally scorched by some paranormal fire--but residing in the tomb and prison of their own husk of whatever is left of their own humanity as they eternally deny Good itself, Life itself.

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences . . . it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine. But come! Ye are here to watch and listen. Lean on my arm and we will go for a little walk." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things." - Philippians 3:19

The word translated as "end" here is the Greek word telos, "goal", "end" as when a thing has reached its course, or finished its purpose. There are those who have their sights set, the goal they put before themselves, destruction; they worship their own selfish desires their "belly", their glory is found in their shame, and they care only for the things they know here and now on earth.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tayla]

For those who are going to hell, will it be a state of being or an actual place of fiery torment? If it's a state of being, does that mean if you die content you will remain content? If it's a fiery place of torment, how exactly are those people tormented?

The body and soul will be outside of God's blessing. Why anyone would choose this is beyond me.

 

[Hawkins]

So the idea that God is Omnipresent is not Biblical?

You and many people have a misconception about what it is. Omnipresence is based off His omnipotence. It He's uncontrollably everywhere, especially where He doesn't want to be, then He's not omnipotent. His omnipresence means He can be (more about power and ability) whichever He wants to be. If wants to be everywhere, He can. If He doesn't want to be in hell, He can.