Warning: anyone who is a habitual sinner is NOT in a saved state

[RDKirk]

Let's examine all of what the Bible says about these servants and talents.

Matt 25 has the context.

We know that "servant" refers to believers from v.14 - “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them."

Since God is compared to a man on a journey, who has servants that serve him, it is impossible to consider these servants to be unbelievers.

Then, we see what the man gave to his servants in v.15 - To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.

So, 3 servants, each given a different amount. What did the 1 bag man do and get?

v.18 - But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

And what did the man do to the 1 bagger servant?
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?
27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “ ‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags.
29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

So, what you posted about this parable was ripped from its proper context.



How do you explain the 1 talent (bag) servant then?

The one-bag servant was given what the master knew he had the ability to handle.

But he did not handle it to his ability. That was his crime--not doing what he knew he should have done.

Much will be required of everyone who has been given much. And even more will be expected of the one who has been entrusted with more.

God's expectations of us are commensurate with what He has given us. Does God expect an impoverished Christian in Nigeria to feed a hundred of his villagers? No.

Does God expect a well-paid American Christian to feed a hundred Nigerians...probably so.

The 1-bag servant was not punished for honest inability. He would not have produced as much as the 5-bag servant, nor was he expected to produce that much. He was punished for not doing what he was fully able to do.

 

[BCsenior]

Everyone who enters the Kingdom of Heaven will "reign," whether over a little or a lot.

This is true, but so what!
Infinitely more important is this ...

Would you like to see the sin-list passages in the NT,
which promise that habitual sinners will NOT enter
the Kingdom of God?
(This refers to multitudes in the church today,
who have been deceived by the "greasy-grace" doctrines!)

These passages merely join in with the many other
dire warnings written to believers in the epistles!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay, perhaps you've learned that it's a waste of your time dialoging with these "grace" guys.

Yes I have long ago but I still want to show the scriptures these guys misinterpret so that others may get the full message and not only bits & pieces.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then my question still stands.

It seems obvious to me, but maybe not to others. My response to you here is DIRECTLY related to my question to you...........How, EXACTLY,SPECIFICALLY do we adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit to be saved?

This is abiding in Him,fellowship "adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit."~~

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk by means of the Spirit.

If we don't understand these principles and APPLY them.......we are out of fellowship,not abiding in Him, Not 'adhering to the guidance of the Spirit'..............CUT off from Christ.

The forever indwelling Spirit, that is our GUARANTEE is grieved or quenched and is not leading us. And if we remain in this state we will be least in His kingdom after we are evaluated at His Bema seat.

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation. If someone constantly greaves the Holy Spirit they will not receive salvation. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit means we will always have the conviction of the Holy Spirit because we have already received His guidance. We will never lose that conviction and knowledge of right & wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would dispute your understanding.

Everyone is free to do that. What is helpful is to explain why one does. And I provided a color coded explanation of 2 verses that proves that there are 2 kinds of heirship.

Those who do not share His suffering in any way (see 1 Peter 4:12-19) are not part of Him in the first place--those are not saved people.

Both Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12 refute your opinion.

All who are saved will suffer in some way for the Gospel.

This arbitrary statement is not supported by Scripture. We are told that we WILL reign with Christ IF we endure (suffer). Or share in His glory (reign) IF we share in His sufferings.

Those who do not suffer are not saved.

This is nothing more than an arbitrary opinion, and without any support from Scripture.

Those who do not endure, those who deny Him are also not part of Him in the first place. Those who do not endure are not saved.

Then why did Paul write 2 Tim 2:12 to a saved person, and a pastor, no less. And please note Paul's words:
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

So then, who is Paul referring to by the 'we" and "us"?

All those who enter heaven will reign in some capacity.

Arbitrary opinion. Without any Scriptural support.

Do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Just read a bit further ahead in that context to understand what's really at stake.

1 Cor 6:1-2 - 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

So, judging the world is a subjunctive. A possibility, not guaranteed.

8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong (evil), and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Paul just accused many in that congregation of wrongdoing (v.1, 4-8). So v.9 is about the saved people in that congregation.

There are 2 other parallel passages with this one: Gal 5:19-21 and Eph 5:5.

The phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is used in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5, but in Eph 5:5 has "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

So the 2 phrases are equivalent. That means "not inherit" doesn't mean "will not enter" but rather "have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

If such people won't enter the kingdom, Paul sure worded Eph 5:5 strangely by saying "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

It's obviously possible to be IN the kingdom yet have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

So to say "not inherit the kingdom" is just another way to say "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation.

Seriously??

Let's look at Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

OK, now for a color coded explanation:
The red words teach that those who hear and believe the gospel message are "included in Christ" and "marked in Him with a seal". We know from many other verses that believing the gospel means the believer IS SAVED.

The blue words teach that this "seal" is the Holy Spirit Himself, and this indwelling is a "deposit".

The green words teach that the Holy Spirit, as a deposit "guarantees the believer's inheritance until or FOR the redemption (day of redemption in Eph 4:30) of God's possession.

What is absolutely clear is that every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, and this sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

If these verses don't refer to the guarantee of eternal security, then words have no meaning and we all can just make up anything we want to.

Also, Jesus was even more clear in John 10:28. "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH". How in the world is that not eternal security?

If someone constantly greaves the Holy Spirit they will not receive salvation.

Please provide Scriptural support for your opinions. Otherwise there is no reason to accept them.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation.

His Word says otherwise~~Eph 1:14~~New International Version
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

If someone constantly greaves the Holy Spirit they will not receive salvation.

Please provide a verse for this. Paul had the perfect opportunity to say," Do not grieve the Holy Spirit or you will not receive salvation." ........But he did NOT.

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit means we will always have the conviction of the Holy Spirit because we have already received His guidance. We will never lose that conviction and knowledge of right & wrong.

I completely agree. But if we grieve or quench Him we are rejecting His guidance and........We are out of fellowship. Which you seem to not understand or reject.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Everyone is free to do that. What is helpful is to explain why one does. And I provided a color coded explanation of 2 verses that proves that there are 2 kinds of heirship.


Both Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12 refute your opinion.


This arbitrary statement is not supported by Scripture. We are told that we WILL reign with Christ IF we endure (suffer). Or share in His glory (reign) IF we share in His sufferings.


This is nothing more than an arbitrary opinion, and without any support from Scripture.


Then why did Paul write 2 Tim 2:12 to a saved person, and a pastor, no less. And please note Paul's words:
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

So then, who is Paul referring to by the 'we" and "us"?


Arbitrary opinion. Without any Scriptural support.


Just read a bit further ahead in that context to understand what's really at stake.

1 Cor 6:1-2 - 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

So, judging the world is a subjunctive. A possibility, not guaranteed.

8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong (evil), and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Paul just accused many in that congregation of wrongdoing (v.1, 4-8). So v.9 is about the saved people in that congregation.

There are 2 other parallel passages with this one: Gal 5:19-21 and Eph 5:5.

The phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is used in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5, but in Eph 5:5 has "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

So the 2 phrases are equivalent. That means "not inherit" doesn't mean "will not enter" but rather "have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

If such people won't enter the kingdom, Paul sure worded Eph 5:5 strangely by saying "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

It's obviously possible to be IN the kingdom yet have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

So to say "not inherit the kingdom" is just another way to say "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

I know I don't have to do this...................but what a blessing to read your posts!

Thanks FreeGrace.

 

[RDKirk]

Everyone is free to do that. What is helpful is to explain why one does. And I provided a color coded explanation of 2 verses that proves that there are 2 kinds of heirship.


Both Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12 refute your opinion.


This arbitrary statement is not supported by Scripture. We are told that we WILL reign with Christ IF we endure (suffer). Or share in His glory (reign) IF we share in His sufferings.


This is nothing more than an arbitrary opinion, and without any support from Scripture.


Then why did Paul write 2 Tim 2:12 to a saved person, and a pastor, no less. And please note Paul's words:
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

So then, who is Paul referring to by the 'we" and "us"?


Arbitrary opinion. Without any Scriptural support.


Just read a bit further ahead in that context to understand what's really at stake.

1 Cor 6:1-2 - 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

So, judging the world is a subjunctive. A possibility, not guaranteed.

8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong (evil), and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Paul just accused many in that congregation of wrongdoing (v.1, 4-8). So v.9 is about the saved people in that congregation.

There are 2 other parallel passages with this one: Gal 5:19-21 and Eph 5:5.

The phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is used in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5, but in Eph 5:5 has "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

So the 2 phrases are equivalent. That means "not inherit" doesn't mean "will not enter" but rather "have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

If such people won't enter the kingdom, Paul sure worded Eph 5:5 strangely by saying "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

It's obviously possible to be IN the kingdom yet have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

So to say "not inherit the kingdom" is just another way to say "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

As I said, I disagree with your interpretation of those scriptures. Those scriptures are themselves the proof of your error. You're reading them wrong.

 

[BNR32FAN]

His Word says otherwise~~Eph 1:14~~New International Version
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.


Please provide a verse for this. Paul had the perfect opportunity to say," Do not grieve the Holy Spirit or you will not receive salvation." ........But he did NOT.



I completely agree. But if we grieve or quench Him we are rejecting His guidance and........We are out of fellowship. Which you seem to not understand or reject.

First Paul hasn’t finished his message yet in Ephesians 1.

“Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children. Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God. Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-5‬

Second nowhere in John 15 does it say a person is cut off from fellowship from Christ it says they are cut off from Him period. He does not abide in them and they do not abide in Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know I don't have to do this...................but what a blessing to read your posts!

Thanks FreeGrace.

Always eager to make my explanations as clear as possible, so that if, by chance, the opposition really wants to refute my points, I've made it easy for them.

But, alas, no one even tries to unpack my color coded explanations. I guess they are all color blind. lol

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I said, I disagree with your interpretation of those scriptures.

So what?

Those scriptures are themselves the proof of your error.

This means nothing. Prove your claims.

You're reading them wrong.

Then prove your claim.

Anyone can tell anyone else they are wrong. No big deal. The big deal is to prove that someone is wrong.

I've given a color coded explanation to help others understand exactly what my points are. If that is still too difficult for you to follow and understand, then why are you here?

 

[FreeGrace2]

First Paul hasn’t finished his message yet in Ephesians 1.

“Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children. Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God. Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-5‬

What translation are you using here?

New International Version
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

English Standard Version
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Berean Study Bible
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Berean Literal Bible
For this you know, realizing that any fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

New American Standard Bible
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

King James Bible
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Christian Standard Bible
For know and recognize this: Every sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For know and recognize this: Every sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

International Standard Version
For you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

All these translations indicate having "no inheritance IN the kingdom".

What the verse cannot mean is "not enter the kingdom". The point is the there will be no inheritance IN the kingdom when they get there.

This is about loss of reward, based on behavior.

Second nowhere in John 15 does it say a person is cut off from fellowship from Christ it says they are cut off from Him period. He does not abide in them and they do not abide in Him.

Are you not aware that the word "abiding" is about reciprocal relationship?

That being the case, it CANNOT be about salvation, for humans have NOTHING to do with saving themselves, or maintaining their salvation.

What humans ARE responsible for is maintaining fellowship with the Lord.

It takes only a bit of spiritual discernment to understand this.

 

[Gr8Grace]

will inherit the Kingdom

2192 [e] ἔχει
echei has V-PIA-3S

2817 [e] κληρονομίαν
klēronomian inheritance N-AFS

1722 [e] ἐν
en in Prep

3588 [e] τῇ
tē the Art-DFS

932 [e] βασιλείᾳ
basileia kingdom N-DFS

This alone should give you great pause about using the NLT.
Eph 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

It's pretty, simple. All believers WILL enter the kingdom John 10:28,........But for those who do not know about abiding in Christ, and quench the Spirit with their own self-righteous works.......will have no inheritance in the kingdom.

Second nowhere in John 15 does it say a person is cut off from fellowship from Christ it says they are cut off from Him period. He does not abide in them and they do not abide in Him.

You would do well to figure out what fellowship, abiding in Him is all about. It is the ONLY way for the believer to produce DIVINE fruit.

Being cut off from Christ and not abiding in Him is directly related to these principles:
Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk by means of the Spirit.

If we don't know, understand and APPLY these principles.......we are cut from Christ, not abiding in Him.......No fellowship. And are not producing Divine fruit through the Spirit.

 

[BCsenior]

Yes I have long ago but I still want to show the scriptures these guys misinterpret so that others may get the full message and not only bits & pieces.

Yes, but are you truly RECONCILING
the 2 groups of NT verses?

 

[BCsenior]

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation. If someone constantly greives the Holy Spirit they will not receive salvation. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit means we will always have the conviction of the Holy Spirit because we have already received His guidance. We will never lose that conviction and knowledge of right & wrong.

Not only that, but seals may be broken.
On the other hand, when God is talking about a BAC
whom He "knows" will be faithful and will endure
until the end of his life, etc. etc., He can say
that the seal on him/them will never be broken.
Because He knows that He will not have to break it.
Often, its about WHO is being spoken to.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Not only that, but seals may be broken.

Oh really?
John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

The believer receives the same seal:

2 Cor 1:22~~New American Standard Bible
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not only that, but seals may be broken.

This is a reckless statement. Stop trying to equate any physical seal with the Holy Spirit. There is no comparison.

Can the Holy Spirit be "broken"? That's just absurd. So stop it.

And Eph 1:14 prevents such nonsense by saying that the Holy Spirit is a deposit, GUARANTEEING the inheritance of God's possession until the day of REDEMPTION.

So, please explain to the forum how the seal mentioned in Eph 1:13 can be broken, given the words Paul used in v.14.

On the other hand, when God is talking about a BAC
whom He "knows" will be faithful and will endure
until the end of his life, etc. etc., He can say
that the seal on him/them will never be broken.
Because He knows that He will not have to break it.
Often, its about WHO is being spoken to.

Instead of expressing your own opinions about seals, etc, how about providing actual Scripture that tells us that God may "have to break" the seal of Eph 1:13, for any reason.

Because I don't believe you. I do believe the Bible. Give me Bible verses that say what you claim and I will believe what you claim.

No other way.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok so let’s just recap so we can get all of this together in one post. Basically F2G and G8G teach that you can disregard what the Bible says about sin and repentance. That you can just do whatever you want and as long as you believe you’ll be saved. Being born again and becoming a new creation doesn’t mean changing your way of life it just means going from not believing to believing. You don’t need to do anything good or love others. You don’t need to honor God’s commandments. You can be a serial killer rapist and just go around lobbing off the heads of Christians, you can lie, cheat, and steal, worship satan or be an idolater and if you believe your still going to be saved. All you must do is believe and BAM your saved. They paint this nice warm and fuzzy picture of a humungously wide gate to heaven in that couldn’t possibly get any wider unless absolutely nothing is required of us to enter heaven. This idea is never taught by any of the early churches. These guys believe that Jesus’ church has either disappeared from existence without a trace with the death of the apostles or has remained silent and hidden for over 15 centuries bearing no fruit at all and being a light to no one. That somehow the gates of hell have managed to silence the Church of God having the ability to prevail over it and that God has either allowed this to happen or is powerless to stop it. This means that the Holy Spirit must’ve taken a very very long vacation from His duties having no regard at all for the trillions of people who lived between the time of the apostles and the Protestant reformation. I am utterly in total disbelief of how anyone can come to these conclusions thru the study of word of God. It truly baffles me.

 

[BCsenior]

I am utterly in total disbelief of how anyone can come to these conclusions (i.e. grace only) thru the study of word of God. It truly baffles me.

I like your honest recap, BTW.

Satan is "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31, etc.),
Satan is "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Satan "deceives the whole world" (Revel. 12:9).
Satan is "the father of lies!" (John 8:44).

Hence, it is not too difficult for Satan to deceive pastors
... and then their sheep can easily get deceived.
Believers also can get brainwashed with false doctrine through family, friends, etc.

If the deceived are ever presented with the Truth
and actually see that it is the Truth,
they may choose to stick with their deceptions
... for several possible reasons.