War!!!!

[InnerPhyre]

Jesus did not teach fighting injustice with weapons, but with love and forgiveness. If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

As I said, Jesus Taught Peace but also taught against Injustice.

Again I am trying to seperate your state and religion since I am only interested in knowing are you a follower of Jesus?

So tell me according to you Jesus taught to fight against injustice? (can you give me a verse from the book that you follow)

 

[InnerPhyre]

Jesus did not teach us to fight against anyone with violence. We are to destroy our enemies by loving them.

 

[Nikos100]

Jesus did not teach fighting injustice with weapons, but with love and forgiveness. If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword.

Indeed but how can we love and forgive those that want to take us over (Muslims) and enforce their doctrine and ISlamic Caliphate on everyone. I would fight to the death against the monstrosity that is the Caliphate, wouldn't you?

 

[InnerPhyre]

Indeed but how can we love and forgive those that want to take us over (Muslims) and enforce their doctrine and ISlamic Caliphate on everyone. I would fight to the death against the monstrosity that is the Caliphate, wouldn't you?

How could St. Polycarp love those who put him in a stadium and threatened to burn him at the stake if he didn't accept their religion of Emperor worship? Same thing, yet he and his followers managed to love those who were killing them.

No, I would not fight to the death against it, but I would rather die than accept it. There is a difference.

 

[rahul_sharma]

Same with Greece. You occupy our land. We want it back because it was taken unjust way.

Look at Indonesia, When the Christians rose up and wanted their own state in Maluku. The Muslims murdered tens of thousands of THEM with the help of LASKAR JIHAD (THEY WANTED HOLY WAR), they the MUSLIMS have the HYPOCRISY to say "Oh, we want Chechnya to given independence" and then support Shamil Basayev The 'Brave Mujahid' who shoots eight year olds in the back at BESLAN.

This is very unfortunate but i agree with you. What i personally believe is muslims dont want to live with Kafirs and non-believers. Given a chance (which they automatically get when they achieve high % in total population) , Extremists among them will go for Holy war.
More unfortunate thing is common muslims (majority of the muslims) who have nothing to do with this so called deadly Holy (unholy?) war directly, start morally supporting such things on the name of Jihad and Islam.

 

[Nikos100]

How could St. Polycarp love those who put him in a stadium and threatened to burn him at the stake if he didn't accept their religion of Emperor worship? Same thing, yet he and his followers managed to love those who were killing them.

No, I would not fight to the death against it, but I would rather die than accept it. There is a difference.

But what if the very survival of Christianity is at stake, then we MUST fight, we would have no other option, let me put it into context:

It's 2062, Osama Bin Laden The Second and his Mighty Caliphate spread to the furthest reachest of the globe since 2032's Islamic Uprising and formation of an Arab Caliphate in Saudi Arabia against the House of Saud. State after State quickly fell, absorbed by this monstrosity of a super-state. They expanded Eastwards, Southwards, Northwards and Westwards, without secure Oil lines the West was quickly put at the mercy of the madman Osama The Second. Africa quickly fell after that, the last proverbial straw on the backs of their economies being the fall of the Oil Market, Christians were herded off to camps in places where Ethnic Hostility is rife, such as Nigeria, nobody knows the true death count of these 'Concentration Camps', or even if they still exist.

Asia was easy, India fell within days as Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uzbekistan picked it apart with a Nuclear Strike. The rest of Asia fell soon after, North America was the final place of conquering, The invasion coming from a seperate revolution in Canada and the occupational forces in South America and Latin America. All that remained was a small pocket of Orthodox Resistance in The Balkans - The Brave Christian Warriors of Greece and Yugoslavia (with a refugee Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists) and quickly expelled all the Muslims from their land, fearing for the very survival of Chrstianity and a Revolution from within. They fortified their lands and now they are the only ones left who can resist the forces of The Caliphate, would you join them if you had the choice?

 

[InnerPhyre]

The survival of Christianity was at stake in the first three centuries as well...to an even greater extent, first under Jewish persecution, and then under the Roman genocide but Christians did not pick up swords to fight their enemies. It is in these times of persecution that Christianity always thrives. God will not allow His enemies to wipe those who love Him from the earth.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Hiya

Unfortunately for Iraq, their country is turning into another vietnam. Already we are undergoing "Iraqization". Just like Vietnam, the "insurgents" are going to take the country over when we eventually leave.

I had to make a comment. Most threads dealing with the politics of the War on Terrorism, I don't involve myself in, becuase I have quite a stake in it. However, something has gotten the best of me and I just gotta opine.

First, I'm a soldier. I enlisted becuase of the events of 9-11. Since then, I have been in Afghanastan and Iraq. I've seen and fought in both countries. Some of the places I've been (Fallujah), have been the center of media attention on the war of terror. I like to think, becuase I was a pair of boots on the ground, I have a pretty good grasp on things.

I can't justify either combat zone. I'm not nor will I ever be privy to the intellgince reports the Commander of Cheif is privy too. All I know is, I rose my right hand and swore an oath to a higher power then myself, that I will obey his orders.

With this in mind, I'm not sure how someone can accurately compare the War on Terrorism to Veitnam;

--First, Veitnam was considered a conflict for containment, to keep communinsim from spreading. Iraq wasn't about containing Sadaam, but taking him out of power.

--Second, all Military branches today are volunteer. Everyone I have and am serving with, agreed to go, knowing full well the dangers. No one was drafted against their will, no one race, creed or tax bracket is bearing the burden of sending their family members there, they are all equally sharing it.

--Third, The oppostion in Veitnam was much stiffer. NVA and Veit Cong had firm grasp of gorilla tactics that took a toll on human life, that the combined life loss in the War on Terrorism is just a fraction off. The oppostion faced in Iraq and the Stan are **** poor in comparison. Suicide bombings and kidnaping are not the acts of proud resisters, they are acts of desparation, by believers of a failed idealogy.

-- Fourth, Service members are supported. I've never been spit on, mocked, ignored or treated with anything but dignity and respect by every civilian I come across while in uniform. Veterans of Veitnam didn't have the luxory or dare I say, the glory that I received. The public has supported us 110%.

-- Fifth, Veitnam was unpopular and costed officals their terms in office. The war in Iraq and it's occupation got President Bush re-elected. Thats got to mean something.

Ya know, when I walked the streets of Fallujah and the canals of the small villages up and down the river of the Euphrates, I never got the evil eye. When I looked those people in the eye, I didn't see hate. I didn't see mass resistence. What I did see, was a people caught between American occupiers they didn't understand and radical muslims from around the Arab world (rarely Iraqi natives) that couldn't wage an effective war to save their lives ( which often didn't ) so they had to resort to bullying poor farmers.

Was this war started becuase of lies and motivated for some kind of poltical or monetary gain? I dunno. However, when people ask me, " Was it worth it?" reffering of course, to the price we and I have paid, I can look them in the eye and say with a confident conscience, " Yes. everybit of it was."

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Was this war started becuase of lies and motivated for some kind of poltical or monetary gain? I dunno. However, when people ask me, " Was it worth it?" reffering of course, to the price we and I have paid, I can look them in the eye and say with a confident conscience, " Yes. everybit of it was."

Even at the cost of 100,000++ innocent had to die and you are still alive?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Even at the cost of 100,000++ innocent had to die and you are still alive?

Where are you posting from Bookofknowledge?

I'm asking, becuase these kind of comments I've never gotten from a Muslim I've met in Afghanastan or in Iraq. From people who lived and suffered under a regime that was under the philosphy that keeping Muslims in the dark ages was a good thing.

Thats really what the War on Terrorism is about in my opinion. Bringing Fundamental Islam out of the dark ages and catching it up with the rest of the world. Have you ever traveled on the roads of Iraq, Kuwait, Iran or Syria? They fall apart easily, becuase their construction is shoddy. They have been nickle and dimeing technology for the past few hundread years and now it's kicking them in the butt.

I've worked with sevreal different sub-cultures in Afghanastan, different tribes in Afghanastan that live on the Pakistan boarder, not one of them could be considered Arab, but persian and all staunch Muslims. Do you know what kind of things they do that they consider normal? It would curl you hair. It's a dierect result of isolationism preached by Fundamental Islam.

Same thing with the Sunnis of Western Iraq, and the Bedouin of Southern Iraq. Cultrualy, they have little to do with the Pashtus I worked with in the Stan, but same brand of fundamental Islam and same kind of backward and inherently, wrong social statues was there. Brought to you by none other then Fundamental Islam.

So, you are asking if a 100,000 innocent lives was a bearable price to pay to start getting this evil ( Yes, evil ) idealogy the way of the do-do bird and start catching the Muslim world up with the rest of us, then it was the price it had to be paid.

So, back to my orginal question. Where are you posting from? I'm willing to bet it's not from a 3rd world country. I'd like to give you the benefiet of the doubt and say maybe Damascus, or Istanbul or maybe even Egypt. However, I get the subtle feeling you are posting from either North America or Europe and never really spent significant time with you Pashtu or Bedouni cousions to see first hand, the effect Fundamentalism brings on people.

 

[ghazirizvi]

So, back to my orginal question. Where are you posting from? I'm willing to bet it's not from a 3rd world country. I'd like to give you the benefiet of the doubt and say maybe Damascus, or Istanbul or maybe even Egypt. However, I get the subtle feeling you are posting from either North America or Europe and never really spent significant time with you Pashtu or Bedouni cousions to see first hand, the effect Fundamentalism brings on people.

Trust me, I understand what you are talking about. I have met many people from Afghanistan and have talked with many Pashtu's from the NWFP of Pakistan. But your blame in my opinion is heavily misplaced. It is not fundamental Islam which is to be blamed but feudalism. The feudalistic mindset is destroying many tribal societies which exist on it.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Trust me, I understand what you are talking about. I have met many people from Afghanistan and have talked with many Pashtu's from the NWFP of Pakistan. But your blame in my opinion is heavily misplaced. It is not fundamental Islam which is to be blamed but feudalism. The feudalistic mindset is destroying many tribal societies which exist on it.

Thats a pretty valid point. I'll have to take that into consideration.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

So, you are asking if a 100,000 innocent lives was a bearable price to pay to start getting this evil ( Yes, evil ) idealogy the way of the do-do bird and start catching the Muslim world up with the rest of us, then it was the price it had to be paid.

Who decided this price had to be paid?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Who decided this price had to be paid?

Fate? The will of Allah?

Point is, it happened.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Fate? The will of Allah?

Point is, it happened.

It happened Just like that?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

It happened Just like that?

I'll stop this little dance here.

You gave me some figure from no where that 100,000 innocent people died since America entered and occupied Iraq. Instead of arguing over where you got your number or the sematics of "innocent", I just accepted the number.

Then I reasoned, well, they died, no bringing them back, might as well look at the positive aspect of bringing Iraq out of the Dark Ages and into modern times, where no doubt, many more innocents would have suffered an undeserved fate.

Then you asked, who decided they had to pay this pirce? (Meaning the 100,000 dead innocents ), and I can't answer you. Did Allah allow pagans to do this to his own followers? Was it just the cruel hand Fate dealt them? Whatever spiritual belief you have, will answer that for you.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

I'll stop this little dance here.

You gave me some figure from no where that 100,000 innocent people died since America entered and occupied Iraq. Instead of arguing over where you got your number or the sematics of "innocent", I just accepted the number.

Then I reasoned, well, they died, no bringing them back, might as well look at the positive aspect of bringing Iraq out of the Dark Ages and into modern times, where no doubt, many more innocents would have suffered an undeserved fate.

Then you asked, who decided they had to pay this pirce? (Meaning the 100,000 dead innocents ), and I can't answer you. Did Allah allow pagans to do this to his own followers? Was it just the cruel hand Fate dealt them? Whatever spiritual belief you have, will answer that for you.

You said you are a soldier.

If you are on leave or you will be going back to iraq or afghan then this is not a right time to debate this and if you are on time-off spend your time with your family and friends because they deserve your time more than this forum.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

You said you are a soldier.

If you are on leave or you will be going back to iraq or afghan then this is not a right time to debate this and if you are on time-off spend your time with your family and friends because they deserve your time more than this forum.

I'm on stateside duty. I'll be here till next summer when I get out of the service. So, you are stuck with me

 

[Bookofknowledge]

I'm on stateside duty. I'll be here till next summer when I get out of the service. So, you are stuck with me

O Allah have mercy on me. So it seems like I am stuck with a soldier... lol

When did you return? and why are you so strange to the body count of innocents died in Iraq?

http://citypaper.net/articles/2004-11-04/canon.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3964689.stm

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00025.htm