• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

War!!!!

BourbonFromHeaven

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2005
1,294
93
✟1,904.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
When did you return?

this past November.

and why are you so strange to the body count of innocents died in Iraq?

Becuase you just dropped 100,000 out there with no sources and it seemed suspcious to me. (However, you offered some up this time)

However, I don't think the actual number of dead innocents was your point, your point was, innocents had died, which isn't kosher to begin with, yes?
 
Upvote 0

Kripost

Senior Veteran
Mar 23, 2004
2,085
84
46
✟2,681.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Nikos100 said:
As I said, Jesus Taught Peace but also taught against Injustice. Injustice happened when we lost our lands to the barbarian ottomans. Sorry, but you muslims can't have it all your own way, greece will eventually strike back and we will take back our own lands and burn turn the blue mosque into a church, just as you did with Hagia Sophia defiling it with the Minarets.

Are you refering to The Great Idea (η Μεγάλη Ιδέα ) ? The last attempt ended in disaster.
 
Upvote 0

Bookofknowledge

Senior Veteran
Sep 8, 2004
4,913
29
✟35,321.00
Faith
Muslim
BourbonFromHeaven said:
Becuase you just dropped 100,000 out there with no sources and it seemed suspcious to me. (However, you offered some up this time)

It is not a surprise that you suspect the number.

BourbonFromHeaven said:
However, I don't think the actual number of dead innocents was your point, your point was, innocents had died, which isn't kosher to begin with, yes?

Do you follow a religion?
 
Upvote 0

Yaqinud Din

Active Member
May 26, 2005
289
1
✟417.00
Faith
Muslim
I think we need to take a look at what Jihad is.

Jihad is an Arabic word, the meaning of which is explained here in the light of Arabic lexicology, the Holy Quran, Hadith, and writings of the scholars of Islam.
The root jaahada means `to strive'. Juhd means power or exertion. Jihad is the noun of jaahada, and its meaning given in the Mufradat of Raghib, the classical dictionary of Quranic terms, is as follows:

``To exert one's power in repelling the enemy. Jihad is of three kinds: against a visible enemy; against the devil; and against self.''

Lane's Arabic-English lexicon says under jihad:

"Jihad, infinitive noun of jaahada, properly signifies the using or exerting of one's utmost power, efforts, endeavours or ability, in contending with an object of disapprobation; and this is of three kinds, namely, a visible enemy, the devil, and one's self; all of which are included in the term as used in the Quran 22:77.''

It is clear from the Quran that the word jihad has been used there to mean `striving' or `exerting'.

[1.]"Those who strive (jaahada) for Us, We guide them in Our ways'' (26:69). Here the meaning is to carry on a spiritual struggle to attain nearness to God.

[2.] "Whoever strives (jaahada), he only strives for his own self'' (29:6). The meaning here again is struggle for self-purification.

[3.]"We have enjoined on man to do good to his parents. But if they strive (jaahadaa) with you to worship that of which you have no knowledge [i.e. false gods], then obey them not'' (29:8). Here the meaning is that of `arguing' or `disputing', and is applied to an act of unbelievers.

[4.] :Strive for God a true striving (jihad).'' (22:78)

[5.]"Obey not the unbelievers and hypocrites, and strive against them a mighty striving (jihad) with it [i.e. the Quran].'' (25:52)

Both these verses give the command to conduct jihad. The first refers to a jihad for attaining nearness to God. The second mentions a jihad against the deniers of Islam, not by the sword but by means of the Quran itself. It is called a ``mighty jihad'', and is a constant duty.

[6.] As against the word jihad, the Quran has used qu`ood to mean the opposite, and this clarifies the meaning of jihad itself:

"Those believers who sit back, not disabled by injury, are not equal to those who do jihad in the way of God with their wealth and lives." (4:94)

Qu`ood is to sit back and be lazy. Jihad is in contrast to this, meaning `making a full effort' even at the cost of one's life.

Four conditions are given here for allowing jihad by the sword:
[i.]Fighting has to be initiated by the unbelievers, as is clear from the words "those upon whom war is made".

[ii.] There has to be extreme persecution of the Muslims ---"because they have been wronged".

[iii.] The aim of the unbelievers has to be the destruction of Islam and the Muslims, as is clear from the words "there would have been pulled down…".

[iv.] The object of the Muslims must only be self-defense and protection, as shown by the words "if God had not allowed one people to repel another".

The other verse allowing fighting says: ``Fight in the way of God those who fight you, but do not go over the limit'' (2:190). Hence the command in the Holy Quran to fight, or conduct jihad with the sword, is subject to the above conditions.
THE HADITH

Just as the Holy Quran has used the word jihad in a very wide sense, so it is in Hadith.

[1.] "The Holy Prophet said: Do jihad against the idolaters with your wealth, lives and tongues.''

(Mishkat, Book of Jihad, ch. 1, sec. 2)
[2.] "The Holy Prophet was asked: Which jihad is best? He said: He who does jihad against the idolaters with his wealth and life."

(ibid.)
[3.] "A group of Muslim soldiers came to the Holy Prophet [from a battle]. He said: Welcome, you have come from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad. It was said: What is the greater jihad? He said: The striving of a servant against his low desires.''

(Al-Tasharraf, Part I, p. 70)
[4.] "The Holy Prophet said: The greatest jihad is to speak the word of truth to a tyrant."

(Mishkat, Book of Rulership and Judgment, ch. 1, sec. 2)
[5.]"The Holy Prophet said: Do jihad against your desires as you do jihad against your foes."

(Mufradat, under root j-h-d, p. 100)
[6.]"The Holy Prophet said: Do jihad against the unbelievers with your hands and tongues."

(ibid.)
[7.]"Jihad involves four things: enjoining the doing of good, forbidding the doing of evil, speaking the truth in a situation of trial, and having enmity for the wrong-doer."

[8.] "The most excellent jihad is the Hajj."

(Bukhari, Book of Sacrifices, 25:4)
[9.]"The mujahid [one engaged in jihad] is he who strives against his own self to obey God."

These hadith make it clear that jihad means to exert oneself to the utmost, whether by means of one's wealth or tongue or hands or life, whether it is against one's desires or a visible enemy, whether its aim is to attain nearness to God or to propagate the word of God. Briefly, the Holy Quran and Hadith speak of three kinds of jihad:

[i.] A great jihad;

[ii.] The greatest jihad;

[iii.] A lesser jihad.

The first two are to be undertaken constantly, while the third, which includes jihad by means of the sword, is only undertaken if specific conditions are satisfied.

I hope this helps I seen some people say Jihad I put this to make sure we all know what Jihad is. :)

 
Upvote 0

Nikos100

Colourless Green ideas sleep furiously
May 14, 2005
628
12
38
London
✟838.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
"The first two are to be undertaken constantly, while the third, which includes jihad by means of the sword, is only undertaken if specific conditions are satisfied"

That's never happened, there has never been a 'Defensive Muslim War' - It's always been conquest. Thats why the Crusades were launched, because Muslims were attacking Christian land. The Crusades were justified and were a glorious period of Christian History.
 
Upvote 0

WhySoSerious77

Senior Contributor
Jan 4, 2003
10,040
421
Arizona
✟35,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Bookofknowledge said:
Correct me If I am wrong since I do have little knowledge with regards to the religion you follow.

1. Jesus never said don't fight

could this mean Jesus did say fight for justice?

First of all, I don't follow a religion, I don't follow man made rules, I don't follow superstitions. I follow Scripture and Spirit's guidance and I worship Lord Jesus Christ. Your unresolved issues about Christians serving in the military has been explained above, other than that you need to remove the pacifist Christ and Christian impression from your mind.
 
Upvote 0

WhySoSerious77

Senior Contributor
Jan 4, 2003
10,040
421
Arizona
✟35,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
arunma said:
I take it you disagree with my anti-war stance. You seem to have a high regard for soldiers, and I share that feeling. In fact it's precisely due to my respect for soldiers that I'm against war. I don't think soldiers should have to surrender their lives to satiate the greed of the same politicians whose own sons find clever means of avoiding military service.

I realized I didn't read your St. Augustine comments clearly. However, you can be against war, fine with me. There is evil we need to take care of and in everything that happens God is in charge. I have a high regard that is correct because I am one. Politicians, tax payers, always corrupt, doesn't effect our service. :groupray:
 
Upvote 0

WhySoSerious77

Senior Contributor
Jan 4, 2003
10,040
421
Arizona
✟35,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nikos100 said:
I'm up for it, A Turkish Muslim family is living illegally in my family's ancestral home in Kyrenia, they burnt down the Churches, they kicked and humiliated and killed the Orthodox priests, they even urinated on the ceremonial crosses inside the church in Kyrenia - Whatsmore they decimated entire Christian Graveyards by knocking all the headstones down.

I know I am supposed to forgive, but for me, forgiveness will come AFTER Constantinopoli is back in our hands with the Hagia Sophia turned back into it's rightful place as a Glorious Church as is the whole of Thrace and the Armenians, Kurds, Bulgarians, Russians, Serbians and we Greeks have exacted our revenge.

Hey buddy I am a Turk now are you against me? I was born on the soil that has people you seem to dearly hate. History has happened and those pages are turned. Turks came and ruled and they have their country over there now, your statement is far from what a Christian should speak of according to Scripture, these are revengeful thoughts where God says vengence is mine. Turk side not much different than yours, we grew up with seeing all those people you listed second class and we were superior, we won wars throughtout history, we kicked Greek out in 1920 etc etc etc. Well, with Jesus I broke boundaries, when I want to eat something close to Turkish food, I stop by a Greek restaurant, listen to their music. Lived together longest time, I am not going for revenge for past. You are young, and still have time to calm down...
 
Upvote 0

WhySoSerious77

Senior Contributor
Jan 4, 2003
10,040
421
Arizona
✟35,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Again I am trying to seperate your state and religion since I am only interested in knowing are you a follower of Jesus?

So tell me according to you Jesus taught to fight against injustice? (can you give me a verse from the book that you follow)

You need to stop messing with this kid, you might as very well know that what he says is terribly mixed with nationalist emotions and what he says isnot supported in Scripture. It seems like you are trying to get words out of his mouth like he is some type of authority.

My people and his people fought for hundreds of years, I don't feel any animosity towards him.
 
Upvote 0

WhySoSerious77

Senior Contributor
Jan 4, 2003
10,040
421
Arizona
✟35,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
BourbonFromHeaven said:
Hiya



I had to make a comment. Most threads dealing with the politics of the War on Terrorism, I don't involve myself in, becuase I have quite a stake in it. However, something has gotten the best of me and I just gotta opine.

First, I'm a soldier. I enlisted becuase of the events of 9-11. Since then, I have been in Afghanastan and Iraq. I've seen and fought in both countries. Some of the places I've been (Fallujah), have been the center of media attention on the war of terror. I like to think, becuase I was a pair of boots on the ground, I have a pretty good grasp on things.

I can't justify either combat zone. I'm not nor will I ever be privy to the intellgince reports the Commander of Cheif is privy too. All I know is, I rose my right hand and swore an oath to a higher power then myself, that I will obey his orders.

With this in mind, I'm not sure how someone can accurately compare the War on Terrorism to Veitnam;

--First, Veitnam was considered a conflict for containment, to keep communinsim from spreading. Iraq wasn't about containing Sadaam, but taking him out of power.

--Second, all Military branches today are volunteer. Everyone I have and am serving with, agreed to go, knowing full well the dangers. No one was drafted against their will, no one race, creed or tax bracket is bearing the burden of sending their family members there, they are all equally sharing it.

--Third, The oppostion in Veitnam was much stiffer. NVA and Veit Cong had firm grasp of gorilla tactics that took a toll on human life, that the combined life loss in the War on Terrorism is just a fraction off. The oppostion faced in Iraq and the Stan are **** poor in comparison. Suicide bombings and kidnaping are not the acts of proud resisters, they are acts of desparation, by believers of a failed idealogy.

-- Fourth, Service members are supported. I've never been spit on, mocked, ignored or treated with anything but dignity and respect by every civilian I come across while in uniform. Veterans of Veitnam didn't have the luxory or dare I say, the glory that I received. The public has supported us 110%.

-- Fifth, Veitnam was unpopular and costed officals their terms in office. The war in Iraq and it's occupation got President Bush re-elected. Thats got to mean something.

Ya know, when I walked the streets of Fallujah and the canals of the small villages up and down the river of the Euphrates, I never got the evil eye. When I looked those people in the eye, I didn't see hate. I didn't see mass resistence. What I did see, was a people caught between American occupiers they didn't understand and radical muslims from around the Arab world (rarely Iraqi natives) that couldn't wage an effective war to save their lives ( which often didn't ) so they had to resort to bullying poor farmers.

Was this war started becuase of lies and motivated for some kind of poltical or monetary gain? I dunno. However, when people ask me, " Was it worth it?" reffering of course, to the price we and I have paid, I can look them in the eye and say with a confident conscience, " Yes. everybit of it was."

I like this post from a fellow soldier. Are you 11B Bourbon? I have the most respect for those guys...
 
Upvote 0
Feb 21, 2003
5,058
171
Manchester
Visit site
✟28,683.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Bookofknowledge

Senior Veteran
Sep 8, 2004
4,913
29
✟35,321.00
Faith
Muslim
Bushmaster said:
First of all, I don't follow a religion, I don't follow man made rules, I don't follow superstitions. I follow Scripture and Spirit's guidance and I worship Lord Jesus Christ. Your unresolved issues about Christians serving in the military has been explained above, other than that you need to remove the pacifist Christ and Christian impression from your mind.

You don't follow man made rules :scratch: does this mean you don't follow any man made rule?

I need to remove the pacifist what now? I guess I have to re-think with regards to why I am on this forum?
 
Upvote 0

Bookofknowledge

Senior Veteran
Sep 8, 2004
4,913
29
✟35,321.00
Faith
Muslim
Upvote 0