Wal-mart petition

[jrlinz]

JimFromOhio-->
YES. That's the main problem. We should be judging ourselves rather judging others. Are we judging Christians and non-Cristians? For as we judge others so we will be judged by God. Are we heavenly minded or earthy minded? For me as a believer to reach out to those who are lost is a privilege and a responsibility.

Jim, let me ask you, how is my opposition to government sanctification of homosexual marriage judging anything but the sin of homosexuality? Are you saying that this is all these people are, is homosexuals? Is that it? Do you degrade them to just being their sin? I certainly have never suggested that, nor has any respectable Christian leader I have ever heard.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I beg to disagree. Let me give you just one recent incident as an example:
I am visiting my daughter, son-in-law, and two grandsons (ages 10 and 8) that live close by us. I come in, of course, they jump up, run to the door, yell at the top of their lungs "GRAMPA!", and smother me with hugs. I kiss their foreheads, and tell them I love them and missed them (since yesterday). I go out to the yard with their dad, and we discuss a problem he is having with his irrigation system. When that is resolved, I go inside to see my grandkids totally enraptured in a movie on DVD. I hear a main charactor in the movie use the name of the Lord in cvain, loudly. I flinch, but he does it again, and again! I look at my grandkids, who are totally absorbed in the movie. I tell them they should not be listening to this 'garbage' (just my humble opinion). They reply "Oh, grampa, all my friends have seen it, and their parents go to church" and "It's in all the movies now". How do you fight that? Was it policy that let that in my livingroom through the media, or something else? How did that policy come to be? Was it always the 'American way'? I can tell you, in on uncertain terms, it was not! Someone screamed, no one screamed back. jmho. Now, I scream, too.

Does it affect the souls of my grandsons to hear a 'hero' yell God's name in vain repeatedly? HJollywood says 'no!", and that I am anti-diversity, and anti first amendment if I say otherwise. You say I should not try to directly affect 'policy', but God tells me to do something. Who is right?

You are trusting our own efforts rather than God through the Holy Spirit. We cannot change an unbeliever's mind nor we have the power to control their thoughts and beliefs. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). Can we trust the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, to open our minds to understand spiritual truth? If He doesn't do it, it doesn't get done despite all our efforts. For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12). The Word of God is tuned to speak to our inner conscience and demonstrates with spiritual convictions. Jesus had a problem with the pharisees who were very legalists and they had about 613 rules to protect God's commandments. This is my "personal relationship" with God. My concience is what I follow.

 

[JimfromOhio]

My church is not broken. Not perfect, but willing and receptive. If I wait for it to become perfect, it might be too late for some left behind.

We need to look at what the MAIN role of a local church. I never join a church that get involved in secular policies or get political. That's my main problem with some of these churches in Ohio.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, let me ask you, how is my opposition to government sanctification of homosexual marriage judging anything but the sin of homosexuality? Are you saying that this is all these people are, is homosexuals? Is that it? Do you degrade them to just being their sin? I certainly have never suggested that, nor has any respectable Christian leader I have ever heard.

One of the issues that I have learned about God ordained Governments when I was studying God's perspective in "governing" is abortion. An illustration I used earlier if a man hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury. According to the Old Testament law (Exodus 21:22-23), the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life (capital punishment) I don't agree with some of today's government laws because in relation to abortion, is part of Exodus 21:22-23 law, our authorities (United States) have made it legal to abort babies.

Civil government should recognize the sovereignty of other God-ordained institutions (Church, Family) because civil government is necessary and divinely ordained by God (Rom. 13:1–7). We are called to render service and obedience as to submit to civil authority (1 Pet. 2:13–17 ; Matt. 22:21). Even though the Government is God-ordained but human (sinners) are leading governments are also guilty of injustice however Christians should not stop working for justice or cease to be concerned about human rights. Government is a legitimate position of Christian service (i.e. Joseph of the Old Testament) that we are to be concerned with social justice. Jesus taught that the government should work in harmony with the church and should recognize its sovereignty in spiritual matters (Matt. 22:21). As Christians, we can lead human rights based on a biblical view of human dignity. When we change or improvise the law, the law should be the foundation of any government even though they are lead by humanism which means humanity is the source of law.

 

[jrlinz]

Politics is nothing more than a medium, like TV or books. We can use them for Christ, or ignore them. For me, that would not be giving my all.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Politics is nothing more than a medium, like TV or books. We can use them for Christ, or ignore them. For me, that would not be giving my all.

God will use ALL circumstances for His Glory. How do we submit the Holy Spirit to glorify God through those circumstances is the issue. A Christian who witness to others must have a good reputation, especially to the outsiders who are watching. A word is only as good as the character of the one who is a Christian and act like Christ. Creditbility is behaving like Christ when you have the title: "Christian". Our Christian testimonies (action, words and motives) are important to God because it is motive that gives to every holy act that glorifies God. Creditbility is evangelism. The cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ. Love alone can make my conduct acceptable to God to unbelievers.

By judging and voicing our "views" on unbelievers will do more harm than good when God is trying to convict them to turn to God. We are to to strive to achieve, reading 1 Timothy 4 explains that Christians must choose their priorities carefully like an athlete as to have disciplined lives to be careful of actions that may hinder doing God's will. What should motivate me like an athlete who trains for the Olympics to win a gold medal such self-discipline and willing to face the endurance of the spiritual training as Hebrews 12 and other biblical passages describes? Like an athlete when training, I should always keep drinking water so that I won't be dehydrated and feeling weak. With that thought in my mind, I should always keep filling the Holy Spirit in my life so that I am able to witness others.

 

[jrlinz]

God will use ALL circumstances for His Glory. How do we submit the Holy Spirit to glorify God through those circumstances is the issue. A Christian who witness to others must have a good reputation, especially to the outsiders who are watching. A word is only as good as the character of the one who is a Christian and act like Christ. Creditbility is behaving like Christ when you have the title: "Christian". Our Christian testimonies (action, words and motives) are important to God because it is motive that gives to every holy act that glorifies God. Creditbility is evangelism. The cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ. Love alone can make my conduct acceptable to God to unbelievers. Can you spot the fine distinction?

By judging and voicing our "views" on unbelievers will do more harm than good when God is trying to convict them to turn to God. We are to to strive to achieve, reading 1 Timothy 4 explains that Christians must choose their priorities carefully like an athlete as to have disciplined lives to be careful of actions that may hinder doing God's will. What should motivate me like an athlete who trains for the Olympics to win a gold medal such self-discipline and willing to face the endurance of the spiritual training as Hebrews 12 and other biblical passages describes? Like an athlete when training, I should always keep drinking water so that I won't be dehydrated and feeling weak. With that thought in my mind, I should always keep filling the Holy Spirit in my life so that I am able to witness others.

Amen, and speaking unadulterated truth. What displeases God, displeases God. I do not speak ill of others. I do speak ill of sinful behavior. Can you spot the not-so-fine distinction?

 

[jrlinz]

JimFromOhio-->By judging and voicing our "views" on unbelievers will do more harm than good when God is trying to convict them to turn to God

I hope I am wrong, Jim, but I do understand you as saying you wish to mislead the unsaved, letting them see only half the picture of who God is, then get them saved and spring the 'bad news' on them. Am I reading you right? Not at all the way I see it.

 

[BearerBob]

I hope I am wrong, Jim, but I do understand you as saying you wish to mislead the unsaved, letting them see only half the picture of who God is, then get them saved and spring the 'bad news' on them. Am I reading you right? Not at all the way I see it.

You are using the technique the religious of Jesus' time used. I think Jim is working for the approach Jesus used. I personally think it might be a good idea to get people saved before you try to fix them, but you may, of course, do as you see fit.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I hope I am wrong, Jim, but I do understand you as saying you wish to mislead the unsaved, letting them see only half the picture of who God is, then get them saved and spring the 'bad news' on them. Am I reading you right? Not at all the way I see it.

I don't have the power to "fix" them or change their minds. Only God can. I am to do what Christ commanded. To Love and spread the Gospel. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Man often want to get credit for "winning souls" when in fact, only the Holy Spirit can win souls. We are nothing without the Holy Spirit.

 

[jrlinz]

You are using the technique the religious of Jesus' time used. I think Jim is working for the approach Jesus used. I personally think it might be a good idea to get people saved before you try to fix them, but you may, of course, do as you see fit.

Don't you think it out of 'context' to use Jesus' example in a time when men had no say in politics to silence people in a time when we do?

 

[JimfromOhio]

You are using the technique the religious of Jesus' time used. I think Jim is working for the approach Jesus used. I personally think it might be a good idea to get people saved before you try to fix them, but you may, of course, do as you see fit.

Yes.. basically follow Christ's examples. He didn't have problems with sinners. He had problems with religion leaders. "Jesus reserved his hardest words for the hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed and legalism." Philip Yancey A.W.

"A pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself, but a spiritual man is easy on others and hard on himself" (A.W. Tozer).

 

[jrlinz]

I don't have the power to "fix" them or change their minds. Only God can. I am to do what Christ commanded. To Love and spread the Gospel. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Man often want to get credit for "winning souls" when in fact, only the Holy Spirit can win souls. We are nothing without the Holy Spirit.

Is the concept of homosexuality being sin not Gospel? Is that the only thing Christ commanded you to do? By your statement, I would be led to conclude that is the sum total of His commandments to us.

I don't have the power to "fix" them or change their minds. Only God can.

And He always chooses to do this without using His people?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Don't you think it out of 'context' to use Jesus' example in a time when men had no say in politics to silence people in a time when we do?

Who did Jesus argue with the most?

Politicians
Sinners
Religion leaders

 

[JimfromOhio]

Is the concept of homosexuality being sin not Gospel? Is that the only thing Christ commanded you to do? By your statement, I would be led to conclude that is the sum total of His commandments to us.

We are to love sinners, not the acts of sin.

People are using "sins" to hate sinners. That's not what Jesus taught.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Let's take Pharisees for an example, Pharisees got very irritated at what Jesus says because He confronts Pharisees legalism. The Pharisee stood and prayed, "God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican; I fast twice in the week, I give tithes ...’ (Luke 18:11). Here was a man setting up the topsail of pride; but the publican, who was poor in spirit, stood afar off and would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast saying, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner.’ This man carried away the garland. ‘I tell you’ (says Christ) ‘this man went down to his house justified rather than the other’.

 

[jrlinz]

We are to love sinners, not the acts of sin.

People are using "sins" to hate sinners. That's not what Jesus taught.

Granted. Now, if you don't mind, give me examples, within the context of this discussion, of who is doing that? Who is using sin to hate sinners, and how? Because I and other good Christian brothers and sisters dare to voice our disapproval at legitimizing the sin? Is that what you see as using the sin to hate the sinner?

 

[jrlinz]

Let's take Pharisees for an example, Pharisees got very irritated at what Jesus says because He confronts Pharisees legalism. The Pharisee stood and prayed, "God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican; I fast twice in the week, I give tithes ...’ (Luke 18:11). Here was a man setting up the topsail of pride; but the publican, who was poor in spirit, stood afar off and would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast saying, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner.’ This man carried away the garland. ‘I tell you’ (says Christ) ‘this man went down to his house justified rather than the other’.

He went ahead and confessed his sin, and repented. Excellent example.

 

[JimfromOhio]

He went ahead and confessed his sin, and repented. Excellent example.

Yes.... Jesus never condemns sinners but he condemn religion people like us. Religion leaders don't show love because they magnify sins as people are bad rather their sins.

 

[jrlinz]

Look, I am not suggesting, or advocating, that we knock sinners over the head with their sin, or to claim that any of us are totally without sin. But, I am saying I want to be a voice, in whatever medium I can use, for righteousness. I do not want to stand by and allow sin to be rewarded, justified.