"Virtue was not convienent"

[Steezie]

I just got done watching Kingdom of Heaven, one of my favorite historical-ish movies.

One of my favorite lines from the movie is this

"A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."

I've told this to people before, in a somewhat modified version but the gist is still there, and its always received a strong and positive reaction.

But then...often when the figurative chips are down, people will back down. And that part is not so much a mystery, but what mystifies me is why people will often abandon or even CRITICIZE people who stick to their guns and keep this mentality, even to their own or other's detriment. They call them stubborn or stupid, idealistic or archaic.

Now this is something I take very personally and its something that I've believed in even before the movie put it into such eloquent words and its something I try very hard to stick to. I try hard to stick by things that I believe are right regardless of their reception (As indicated by many posts on here)

Even if you cant stick by an ideal itself that you agree with, shouldnt you at least pay some respect to those who do?

 

[Eudaimonist]

But then...often when the figurative chips are down, people will back down. And that part is not so much a mystery, but what mystifies me is why people will often abandon or even CRITICIZE people who stick to their guns and keep this mentality, even to their own or other's detriment. They call them stubborn or stupid, idealistic or archaic.

Can you give an example?

I try hard to stick by things that I believe are right regardless of their reception

Good! I applaud your attitude.

Even if you cant stick by an ideal itself that you agree with, shouldnt you at least pay some respect to those who do?

Yes, one should. But there are plenty of people who hate good people because they are good people, perhaps because such people make them feel inadequate.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Steezie]

Can you give an example?

Are you talking globally or personally?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Are you talking globally or personally?

Whichever one.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Steezie]

Whichever one.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Personally, I am a Socialist. I believe that Socialism can save this world from the mess that its in. I believe that working together for a common goal can help us achieve it. Predictably that is not a popular viewpoint where I live and there are only two other party (SPUSA) members in a town of roughly 600,000.

Globally, any issue where there are two sides. Abortion, gay marriage, war, pick anything. Neither side will even acknowledge the other's being willing to stand up for what they feel is right

 

[Eudaimonist]

Personally, I am a Socialist. I believe that Socialism can save this world from the mess that its in. I believe that working together for a common goal can help us achieve it. Predictably that is not a popular viewpoint where I live and there are only two other party (SPUSA) members in a town of roughly 600,000.

Globally, any issue where there are two sides. Abortion, gay marriage, war, pick anything. Neither side will even acknowledge the other's being willing to stand up for what they feel is right

Oh, I see. I personally think that collectivist ideologies have done much damage in the world, but I will give you credit for standing up for what you believe in. I can respect someone for being an idealist even if I disagree with the ideal.

Edited to add: I just reread the OP, and you list being called an idealist as a criticism. It is praise coming from me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Steezie]

Oh, I see. I personally think that collectivist ideologies have done much damage in the world, but I will give you credit for standing up for what you believe in. I can respect someone for being an idealist even if I disagree with the ideal.

Edited to add: I just reread the OP, and you list being called an idealist as a criticism. It is praise coming from me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Most people who use idealist use it as a negative

 

[Eudaimonist]

Most people who use idealist use it as a negative

Yes, I suppose so, but is it negative to be an idealist? In your view, not that of others.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Autumnleaf]

Even the Bible seems to be against virtue all the time. God went after Mary who was betrothed to Joseph. David had a guy killed to get his wife, they then created the wisest man ever, Solomon. Even Adam had to defy God to give us the freedom to choose how we want to live. Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, or both warn us not to be too good or too evil. Virtue is a mixed bag.

 

[cantata]

How on earth is it possible to be too good?

 

[quatona]

Personally, I don´t think I have ever heard or read the defense that "virtue was not convenient at that time".

 

[Steezie]

Personally, I don´t think I have ever heard or read the defense that "virtue was not convenient at that time".

Its rarely ever STATED as such or so directly, but people make it all the time. They do something that they may not morally agree with, but they justify it personally or publically by stating that they NEED to do this.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How on earth is it possible to be too good?

It isn't, but that is how it will appear when goodness is poorly defined, in which case "too much goodness" leads to bad results.

It's like how men are told to be "nice" to women as an ideal, and those men who take that ideal seriously end up being "too nice" for most women to find desirable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Its rarely ever STATED as such or so directly, but people make it all the time. They do something that they may not morally agree with, but they justify it personally or publically by stating that they NEED to do this.

So the actual question would be whether your interpretation of their statement is necessarily accurate: Does 'I need to do this' actually and necessarily mean 'It is convenient to do this at this point in time'?

 

[cantata]

It isn't, but that is how it will appear when goodness is poorly defined, in which case "too much goodness" leads to bad results.

It's like how men are told to be "nice" to women as an ideal, and those men who take that ideal seriously end up being "too nice" for most women to find desirable.

Agreed!

If you are being "too good" then you are not being good; most likely, you are working from some rule about being good which does not apply in this particular situation.

 

[MoonlessNight]

God went after Mary who was betrothed to Joseph.

The only way I can understand what you are saying here is if I think you interpret these events in quite a horrendous way. I don't want to do that, so care to elaborate?

David had a guy killed to get his wife, they then created the wisest man ever, Solomon.

If you've read the book of Samuel it's very clear that David's murder of Uriah is by no means condoned, and in fact is probably the greatest evil in David's life. Yes they had Solomon, but if you are judging righteousness just by their descendants, remember the first child died.

Even Adam had to defy God to give us the freedom to choose how we want to live.

Which has traditionally been considered a sin, and is shown as a sin in the text. The fact that good (ultimately God's incarnation) resulted from it is instead an example that God can create good from evil. But the evil actions remain evil.

Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, or both warn us not to be too good or too evil. Virtue is a mixed bag.

Care to give some examples of what you are talking about?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Oh, I see. I personally think that collectivist ideologies have done much damage in the world, but I will give you credit for standing up for what you believe in. I can respect someone for being an idealist even if I disagree with the ideal.

Edited to add: I just reread the OP, and you list being called an idealist as a criticism. It is praise coming from me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I agree. We idealists have all the passion in the world, but it is worthless if it isn't grounded in right and reality. I admire idealists. But I see many who do great evil, such as Lenin, as well as those who do great good, such as MLK junior.

It is difficult for me to understand someone still holding onto socialism and secular leftism as an ideology given the disastrous way it panned out in the 20th century. But... idealists are noted for our eternal optomism. Perhaps they just think if we stay the course...?

The fight of the 20th century was against the two secular "ISM's" that were so damaging beyond words: fascism and communism.

This century has opened with a new enemy: Islamic fascism (or militant Islam, whichever you wish to call it). But it threatens the world, and of course, as always, wishes death to the Jews. The sides are polarizing. It's getting pretty scary out there. My idealist dujour? Dennis Prager.

 

[GeratTzedek]

How on earth is it possible to be too good?

Part of goodness is the balance of virtues. If I pursue one virtue at the expense of all others, it becomes perverted.

 

[Autumnleaf]

[SIZE=-1]Be not righteous overmuch, and do not make yourself overwise; why should you destroy yourself? Be not wicked overmuch, neither be a fool; why should you die before your time? It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand; for he who fears God shall come forth from them all. Wisdom gives strength to the wise man more than ten rulers that are in a city. {Eccl 7:16-19 RSV}[/SIZE]