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You get to go to heaven. A great many others do not. That is reason to boast! God loves you more than He loves me. God loves you more than He loves a great many others. WHy are you not shouting from the mountain tops about how much God loves you?everyone who understands election feels privileged humility , there can be no boasting of any sort , not even over faith , God reserves a remnant amongst the Jews , and even the saved Gentiles are said to have found without even seeking God.
It is only a misunderstanding of Grace and Election that can make anyone think in terms of pride ...... God chose the garbage of this world to shame those who thought they were worthy!
A better explanation than I can muster from the Canons of Dordt:The Creator of the univers chose you, above a great many others, and you don't feel honored? You get to go to heaven while many others get to go to hell and you don't call that a privlage? God loves you more than He loves me and you don't think that you are special?
Not honor or boasting, dear Box, but humility and rejoicing. Why do you not react as the gentiles appointed for eternal life did upon receiving this news? Hmmm?FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 7. Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect number, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call an draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
And
FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 10. The good pleasure of God is the sole cause of this gracious election; which does not consist herein that out of all possible qualities and actions of men God has chosen some as a condition of salvation, but that He was pleased out of the common mass of sinners to adopt some certain persons as a peculiar people to Himself, as it is written: "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she (Rebekah) was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Rom 9:11-13). "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48).
Nowhere is boasting or considering ourselves honored or priveliged commended. Those who could choose are these:3:8 The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care (Deu_29:29; Rom_9:20; Rom_11:33), that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election (2Pe_1:10). So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God (Rom_11:33; Eph_1:6), and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel (Luk_10:20; Rom_8:33; Rom_11:5, Rom_11:6, Rom_11:20; 2Pe_1:10).
But we of His choosing are these:Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
I know that I am one unworthy who was compelled to the feast. There was a time some 28 years ago when I had the idea that I deserved to be one invited, but time and experience has proven to me unequivocably that I have never deserved that invitation, and even having recieved it I would have made excuses. My Lord has compelled me to attend His feast, my Shepherd has carried me upon His shoulders to His fold often against my will, and for that I am immeasurably grateful. I will not shout about how much God loves me in comparison to others, but I will shout about how much I love Him, how wonderful are His works in all the earth, and how grateful are His people for the redemption He has wrought for us in His Son.Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
You keep calling yourself non-elect and speak in resentful terms about God loving others more than you. You're really beginning to worry me, Box.Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
You get to go to heaven. A great many others do not. That is reason to boast! God loves you more than He loves me. God loves you more than He loves a great many others. WHy are you not shouting from the mountain tops about how much God loves you?
What the lord has done for you.Oh I do boast , all Calvinists boast ........ we boast about what God has done!!
cygnusx1 have you ever known anyone who the Lord cannot save ? :priest:[/quote said:I bet you know a lot of people the Lord chooses not to save...
Forgive me for saying this, but that is sad. You are compelled because you have no other choice. I serve willingly because I love God. He loved me first, to be sure, but I attend my shepard because I love him of my own (God given) freewill.I know that I am one unworthy who was compelled to the feast. There was a time some 28 years ago when I had the idea that I deserved to be one invited, but time and experience has proven to me unequivocably that I have never deserved that invitation, and even having recieved it I would have made excuses. My Lord has compelled me to attend His feast, my Shepherd has carried me upon His shoulders to His fold often against my will, and for that I am immeasurably grateful. I will not shout about how much God loves me in comparison to others, but I will shout about how much I love Him, how wonderful are His works in all the earth, and how grateful are His people for the redemption He has wrought for us in His Son.
I have used this to teach "fairness" to my children. It is a good lesson or teaching that people who accept Christ at a young age and spend their life serving God and those that accept Chrsit late in life will all receive the same reward.bradfordl said:What does this mean, Box?:
No, I am elect and I am not resentful. Calvinism sees God as loving only the elect and hating all the rest. I do not accept that. Jesus's sacrifice took away the sins of the world.bradfordl said:You keep calling yourself non-elect and speak in resentful terms about God loving others more than you. You're really beginning to worry me, Box.
No, I am elect and I am not resentful. Calvinism sees God as loving only the elect and hating all the rest. I do not accept that.
Forgive me for saying this, but that is sad. You are compelled because you have no other choice. I serve willingly because I love God.
This is not a biblical theology. The Shepherd does not need attending, He attends to His sheep. It is only sad to you because you would prefer to be the cause of your own good standing with God.Forgive me for saying this, but that is sad. You are compelled because you have no other choice. I serve willingly because I love God. He loved me first, to be sure, but I attend my shepard because I love him of my own (God given) freewill.
So why does it end with "many be called, but few chosen"?I have used this to teach "fairness" to my children. It is a good lesson or teaching that people who accept Christ at a young age and spend their life serving God and those that accept Chrsit late in life will all receive the same reward.
But earlier said:No, I am elect and I am not resentful. Calvinism sees God as loving only the elect and hating all the rest. I do not accept that. Jesus's sacrifice took away the sins of the world.
Very confusing, Box. You do not receive the truth of the scriptures with gladness, but with rejection and resentment. Doesn't that scare you? Or do you resolve the problem by seeking out false and unscriptural theological constructs that allow you to reject the plain truth of the Word? Maybe that doesn't scare you, and maybe there is a good reason it doesn't, and maybe you are a prophet unknowingly?Far more humbling that believing God love you (the Elect) and hates me (the non-elect).
And...
God loves you more than He loves me and you don't think that you are special?
And...
You get to go to heaven. A great many others do not. That is reason to boast! God loves you more than He loves me.
Cavinism doesn't do that, but perhaps you recognize it would in your own heart? There may be a reason for that, as above.Calvinism sets up a mind set where the elect are undeniably better than everybody else.
I guess maybe Paul thought we needed to watch for that, too, but for a different reason:The Westminster recognized that this would create a boastful heart and warns believers to watch for that.
So Paul warns against boasting of any act of ours. But you warn against boasting about an act of God. Curious.Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Then you say:On the other hand, believing that Jesus died for all men makes no man more special than another.
No man more special than another except that he has the admirable wisdom to accept this truth, while his neighbor is a lesser man of vile character because he rejects it. Or do you disagree that it is a vile thing to reject this universal offer and defeat the purpose of God who had His beloved Son "die for all men"?Salvation is available to all. If your hear the Gospel and God convicts you of its truth, any man can accept, or reject, God's ofered salvation.
No, Box. That is the part that made you so sad. Jesus did not "invite", He had His servants bring the poor, the maimed, the halt, and the blind, and He had them compel those living in the highways and hedges to His wedding feast. Not one of those who had a "choice" attended. Now maybe you'd rather be one who has a choice and is given an invitation, and that's your business, but as for me, I'd much rather be one of those brought and compelled. I may be poor, maimed, halt, and blind and live in the highways and hedges, but at least I get to actually attend the party.So Jesus invited other to the wedding (Ofer of salvation to gentiles) and stated that the original guests would have no part in the feast. People make choices. In terms of salvation, those choices are not independant of God.
2Co 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
2Co 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
Calvinism sets up a mind set where the elect are undeniably better than everybody else.
And they are still better than a great many other people because God chose Paul and Jacob. Unless God rolls dice to determine who gets into the book of life, the people there must be there for a reason. And the reason is: God loves them and hates everybody else. Since God loves them, they must be better than those whom God hates, at least in Gods view. Agree or disagree?that is a dirt rotten lie box.
The truth is the absolute reverse , read 1 Corinthians 1.
Paul called himself "the chief of sinners" and Jacob was a dispicable cheat!
And they are still better than a great many other people because God chose Paul and Jacob. Unless God rolls dice to determine who gets into the book of life, the people there must be there for a reason. And the reason is: God loves them and hates everybody else. Since God loves them, they must be better than those whom God hates, at least in Gods view. Agree or disagree?
I am beginning to seriously fear for you, Box. You are entrenched in your rejection of the scriptures and sound exegesis.Originally Posted by Boxmaker
And they are still better than a great many other people because God chose Paul and Jacob. Unless God rolls dice to determine who gets into the book of life, the people there must be there for a reason. And the reason is: God loves them and hates everybody else. Since God loves them, they must be better than those whom God hates, at least in Gods view. Agree or disagree?
And they are still better than a great many other people because God chose Paul and Jacob. Unless God rolls dice to determine who gets into the book of life, the people there must be there for a reason. And the reason is: God loves them and hates everybody else. Since God loves them, they must be better than those whom God hates, at least in Gods view. Agree or disagree?
I joined a mens group with my pastor. One of the other men he invited to join is a Calvinist. Our pastor wanted to come with 12 pillars of a Christian life. One member said that one of the pillars needs to be believing that Chriat died for all men. The Calvinist said he doesn't believe that. A third member of the group thought the Calvinist was kidding and started laughing. The Calvinist looked at him and said, "I'm not kidding. I don't believe that."I'm really disappointed, box. After all of the ground we've covered, I really thought you were at least coming to an understanding of Reformed theology, even though you didn't necessarily agree with it. You're post here tells me I was wrong.
pure psycho-babel , and you have been told at least twice by me that this i a lie , and you haven't repented because you are determined to say what Calvinists believe and think .... I suggest everyone just leaves you to stew in your own misadventure.......I joined a mens group with my pastor. One of the other men he invited to join is a Calvinist. Our pastor wanted to come with 12 pillars of a Christian life. One member said that one of the pillars needs to be believing that Chriat died for all men. The Calvinist said he doesn't believe that. A third member of the group thought the Calvinist was kidding and started laughing. The Calvinist looked at him and said, "I'm not kidding. I don't believe that."
The following discussion brought up the question I posted here. As we discussed Calvinism we began to see the Calvinism sets up a belief system where its adherents are some how better than everybody else.
better than others ? hardly!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being[3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him[4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
I am a believer. God has shown me His mercy.I am beginning to seriously fear for you, Box. You are entrenched in your rejection of the scriptures and sound exegesis.
First: It is your theology that ascribes a superior quality to the saved, the commendable attributes of wisdom and conscience that enable a decision, which attributes their lesser neighbors lack. The biblical doctrine of predestination rejects any attribute of the elect contributing to their election.
Second: God's decree is not a "toss of the dice", which infers a dependence upon chance to determine who is elect, but a determinate act, planned and carried out with purpose. That purpose is clearly explained in Romans 9: 18-24 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" He has explained His purpose in election very plainly, yet you reject it.
Third: You are determined to make God as yourself. You consider Him to be drifting through time as you are, the theology you call "open theism". You think in your theology that He is picking people as His own as time unfolds according to the "quality" of decision they make. You presume that in biblical theology (you call calvinism) that God is choosing His people according to some other "quality" He spots in them as time unfolds. God is not a man. He is not drifting through time like you. He is carrying out His perfect and precise will in all of creation, including the creation of both vessels made for destruction and vessels made for mercy. Your approval or disapproval of this fact is immaterial, it is scripture.
For quite a long time we've seen you scratch and dig at these plainly biblical doctrines without any scripture to support your position. You've occasionally sounded like Agrippa and were almost persuaded, but almost only counts in, well, you know the drill. This has proven beyond question that you are now rejecting the teaching of God's Word. Whether or not that will be the condition of your heart in perpetuity remains to be seen. But at some point it is encumbent upon christians to shake the dust of the city of the unbelievers off their sandals and be done. I will pray for your conversion, Box, from one who rejects the truth to one who believes God's Word. May God have mercy upon you.
What exactly did your pastor say, and what exactly did the person respond with?I joined a mens group with my pastor. One of the other men he invited to join is a Calvinist. Our pastor wanted to come with 12 pillars of a Christian life. One member said that one of the pillars needs to be believing that Chriat died for all men. The Calvinist said he doesn't believe that. A third member of the group thought the Calvinist was kidding and started laughing. The Calvinist looked at him and said, "I'm not kidding. I don't believe that."
There's not anything that makes us better in our view. But there's an awful lot that allows your view to say you're better in your view. You have faith -- we don't say God bases His choice on your faith. You have repentance -- we don't say God bases His choice on your repentance. You say you want to believe before God gets hold of you (something that in our view never occurs, acc. Scripture (Rom 3:9-19) -- yet we don't say God bases His choice on your will (thankfully, because no one would come acc. Scripture). And it goes on and on and on -- greater humility? No. Good works done in faith? No. Doing what God says? No. Loving God? No.The following discussion brought up the question I posted here. As we discussed Calvinism we began to see the Calvinism sets up a belief system where its adherents are some how better than everybody else. After all, God loves them enough to redeem them to heaven while God hates everybody else. While people claim that they are humbled by the choice, I find that a little hard to believe. Knowing something about the human psyche, whenever we are set apart from the rest of humanity we feel proud.
That's just mistaking means for ends. I want you to consider something: that the very Gospel we preach having reached the ears it has reached, that's hope. Why? Because we follow the Spirit of God around. And we preach the Gospel. If there's any hope, it's that the Gospel has reached a heart -- not that a heart has reached after the Gospel, but the other way around. The Spirit brings people to spiritual life: they don't do it themselves. And wherever the Gospel is preached, there the Spirit is at work.Bradford pointed out that there is no difference between pre-destined and open theology. God either chose you because he loved you and hated me or God worked in both of our hearts and you accepted God and I didn’t because of something inside of you. I think there is a difference. We both agree that salvation is from God and God alone. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone and even that faith is a gift from God lest we be boastful. A major difference myself and others in my group see is that Calvinist can offer no hope to the non-elect. None. From our point of view, there is hope for all. Those who seek, find. That is God’s promise. Here again is another point of disagreement. The Calvinist will claim that none will seek unless God does something first.
I claim fallen men don't really suspect the vastness of what they're missing. They don't really become aware of the nature of a fulfilled life until they truly are fulfilled. They simply connect it to half-truths. Then they rush after those half-truths. They feel a need, sure. We have a natural need. But that's the essential problem. The natural need is not enough for eternal life; the spiritually dead man doesn't feel hungry for the Spirit.I claim that fallen men can look around and see that their life is missing something. Fallen man knows that something is missing from his life and will search for something to fill it. Drugs, sex, service, whatever. Nothing will fill that longing until they come to know Jesus. The fact that they are spiritually dead does not mean they don’t know something is missing. It is that longing for completeness that may first open their ears to God’s truth.
I have read Romans and I am reading it again.Boxmaker, read Romans, chapter 9. Jacob and Esau. Did God choose Jacob because Jacob was "better" than Esau? Doesn't the Bible explicitly deny this, by stating that "when Rebecca conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:10-13, ESV) How do these verses leave any room for believing that God chose Jacob to be among the elect because he was "better" than Esau?
Man 1 - "One of the pillars of a Christian life is to believe that Christ died for all men"What exactly did your pastor say, and what exactly did the person respond with?
And here is an example o what seperates believers. You contend the Chrsit did not intend to save all men. I contend that Christ died knowing that not all men would be saved.heymikey80 said:Very often these subtle searches for common creeds will result in people saying something a particular way that offends a point of doctrine in another viewpoint.
To me it seems clear this has occurred. I'd probably point out that Christ didn't die intending to save everyone, myself. Christ did extend His calling to everyone, though, because He's the sole Savior in the matter. The extent of the Atonement was universal. The intent of the Atonement was the salvation of specific people. It's very easy to polemicize this kind of thing, and I fully expect your next response will emphasize one to the exclusion of the other. But that's the problem with your argument. Half a truth is a half-truth.
Actually, there is no difference between our two views here. In either case, we believe that God is the only source of salvation. Whether God predestined only the elect or works in the hearts of all men, only those to whom God grants faith recieve His gift of salvation. We are chosen by God. Many are called but few are chosen. It is God's choice. But we must not forget that those who seek find.heymikey80 said:There's not anything that makes us better in our view. But there's an awful lot that allows your view to say you're better in your view. You have faith -- we don't say God bases His choice on your faith. You have repentance -- we don't say God bases His choice on your repentance. You say you want to believe before God gets hold of you (something that in our view never occurs, acc. Scripture (Rom 3:9-19) -- yet we don't say God bases His choice on your will (thankfully, because no one would come acc. Scripture). And it goes on and on and on -- greater humility? No. Good works done in faith? No. Doing what God says? No. Loving God? No.
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