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Virginia Tech and Calvinism

Boxmaker

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this...and we're probably at an impasse. The second clause does not contradict, but clarifies.
It is a logical contridiction. The first clause says God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. The second clause contridicts this by saying that God does not ordain the evil acts. The definition of ordain would make God directly responsible for the actions of VT shooter. To avoid that, the WCF states as an article of faith, that God is not responsible.

I accept that the WCF states as an article of faith that God is not responsible for evil. Since teh logic of that statement contridicts what God has revealed to me in His word, I choose to reject the WCF in favor of the Biblical confession of faith.

With that, I agree that we are at an impass.



For the believer, God works all things for good. And it may be a long time before we understand why. Joseph had to wait about 20 years before God worked things towards his good. Moses went through 40 years of tempering before God determined he was ready to go to Pharo. Job had to go through a lot before God worked that to his good. Job is also interesting in that God did not tell Satan what he was to do to test Job. Rather, God told Satan what he was not allowed to do. The details of Jobs trials were not preordained. Just an interesting note.

Yes, God has a plan and He carries it out. The question is whether God sending the Assyrians against Israel was preordained or not. I say not. I say God sent the Assyrians against a sinful Israel as punishment.



 
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bradfordl

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I most assuradly do not agree with that assesment of mankind. It is flat out wrong. The universe was not created for Jesus, it was created for us.
And this is what your error hinges upon. All things were created for Christ, even your little bug self. Who was it that said he was but a worm? The man after God's own heart, David. And it is entirely amazing grace that God doesn't squash you and me, since we are such noxious little bugs. But even more amazing is that to glorify His Son, He ordained to redeem some of these bugs to be a people unto Him, a people for His Son.

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

Job is also interesting in that God did not tell Satan what he was to do to test Job. Rather, God told Satan what he was not allowed to do.
Yes, and there was no requirement for Him to tell Satan anything. He ordained to tell him what He told him.
The details of Jobs trials were not preordained.
You deduce that from the fact that God did not explain all the details to Satan? Now I can see why you presume so much importance upon yourself. If by your thinking God is required to give detailed explanations of His plans to the devil, obviously He owes even more than that to one such as yourself, one for whom the Celestial Bellhop spoke the universe into being! I am sure He is grateful to you for taking a little time out of your important and busy life to think about Him once in awhile. I'm sure it just thrills Him to no end that you grace Him with your presence at Church on Sunday. I am sure it sets His heart all a-flutter when you grant Him an occasional prayer.

But what did old Abe think of himself?:
Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
 
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cygnusx1

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cygnusx1

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Excellent challenge Brad!!!!!!




How true bro , and for those who wish to think for a minute , it is simply impossible to foreordain merely the "big" events in life , simply because each big event is dependant upon prior events , many of which are smaller , and they in turn are dependant upon even smaller events . ie, if Hitlers grand parents had not been born , the Jews would not be back in Israel today , and prophecy would be nothing but guess work.
 
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Boxmaker

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I must have missed that one. Which chapter and verse has the proficy that Hitler would be responsible for the return of the Jews to Isreal?
 
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Boxmaker

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I find that statement a massive contradiction , please demonstrate how God works ALL THINGS together for good without ordaining all events ????
Okay, but I can garentee you wont like the answer. God can work all things together for good because God is in control. He can take any situation and work it for good. It does not require Him to preordain everything. All He has to say is, "I am going to do this" and He does.



cygnusx1 said:
Impossible !! see above!
Totally possible! See above.



cygnusx1 said:
No , there is no such thing as part time sovereignty.
Why would you believe that? I don't.




You believe God wouldn't save everyboy either. You make God responsible for sending people to hell after micro managing every thought and action in their life. God's plan was to send His Son to die for our sins and raise from the dead for our eternal life so that WHOSEVER BELIEVED would be saved.

Adam chose not to remain with God. God's plan is to save those who want to be with Him. To be sure, salvation is not possible without God's intervention. But sseek and you shall find.

No grasshopper (which the verse you referenced refers to a great number and is not meant to infer that men are bugs), I think I finally understand the difference between what you believe and what I believe. It goes directly to the nature of God. I believe that God loves all men and desiers that all men be saved. He sent Jesus to provide that salvation. God loves us as a Father, not an Entomologist.

I may well be wrong. Time and study will tell. As it stands now, your God the Puppet Master is not the God I see revealed in scripture. The God of scripture desires that His creation willingly return to its rightful position: communion with, worship of and servent to God.
 
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GrinningDwarf

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Well, then...should I assume we are done here?

BTW...I was relieved to find Bob George actually deny the WoF theology in Classic Christianity. However, there has still been something nagging at the back of my mind about Classic Christianity, but I don't know what it is. I think I might have found what it is as I was going through Michael Horton's In the Face of God: The Dangers and Delights of Spiritual Intimacy, and it's reflected in the difference between 'theology of glory' versus 'theology of the cross'. More later, I suppose...unless we really are done here.

BTW...about your 'Puppet Master' comment...do you believe a genuine Christian (acknowledging that there are false converts who were never saved to begin with) can lose his/her salvation?
 
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Boxmaker

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Well, then...should I assume we are done here?
I am willing to go on bu I would imagine progress will be slow. But God is patient. Are we?

No, Bob George is not WoF. If he were I would run, fast, in the other direction..

GrinningDwarf said:
BTW...about your 'Puppet Master' comment...do you believe a genuine Christian (acknowledging that there are false converts who were never saved to begin with) can lose his/her salvation?
At this moment in time I am of the opinion that you cannot lose what you never had. That having been said, I have been looking at apostates, those that once believed but now claim they do not. The Bible says some ineresting things about this and it sounds like it is possible to lose it. Forinstance, salt that loses its saltiness is no longer for anything and should thrown out. Jesus spoke those words. So that is something I am studying right now.

By the way, that Puppet Maser comment was aimed at cygnusx1. The way he talks about God and mans relationship to God really leaves me with the impression that God cares very little for His creation. I do not find this to be the case after reading the Bible. From personal experiance, I find it impossible to love something that I do not care about.

I find discussions with you to be more compeling while discussion with cygnusx1 leave me utterly cold to Calvinism. As a result, I usually respond poorly to cygnusx1.
 
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orthedoxy

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Does God want people to sin?
Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Jesus wanted to do something here but couldn't, why could he not do what he wanted to do?

I think it's silly to say God made people to sin and is angry and calls the people evil. It is the same as puppet master blaming the puppet.

Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Read this verse how can you say God causes people to sin?

How can you see it in your heart that God moved the shooter to commit such evil act?
 
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bradfordl

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Does God want people to sin?
If it were not in God's decretive will that men sin, they would not, therefore the answer is either yes, and He is sovereign, or no, and He is not. The latter is impossible.

You misunderstand. He gathered their children as He so willed, they just were not willing and did not cooperate, and will suffer the consequences.

I
think it's silly to say God made people to sin and is angry and calls the people evil. It is the same as puppet master blaming the puppet.
I think its silly to not be willing to believe the scriptures simply because you refuse to wrap your mind around the idea that:


Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

The man is accountable because of his devising, he had no foreknowledge of God's will, and chose his way. That his actions were fore-ordained in the plan of God does not remove his responsibility for the choice he made.

Nobody here said that God forces men to sin. Men sin because they are sinners, and God has decreed that they would sin, and be responsible for that sin as well as responsible for causing others to sin through temptation and evil example.

How can you see it in your heart that God moved the shooter to commit such evil act?
God did not "move" the shooter, the shooter chose to shoot. God decreed that he would.
 
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cygnusx1

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I must have missed that one. Which chapter and verse has the proficy that Hitler would be responsible for the return of the Jews to Isreal?

It's common knowledge , try reading all about the second world war online.
 
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cygnusx1

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spot the bait and switch , "God can works all things together for good " but scripture doesn't sday God can , God does!


Totally possible! See above.
Impossible , you are mixing up this whole thing why ?

You wish to say God controls all things , at the same time as saying God can control all things ....... so which is it!


Why would you believe that? I don't.

no , you fluctuate between God controls all things and God doesn't control all things , that bro is to be double-minded.





that's NOT everybody then is it!

Adam chose not to remain with God. God's plan is to save those who want to be with Him. To be sure, salvation is not possible without God's intervention. But sseek and you shall find.

Did God plan to save you ? demonstrate it!


You know very little about my view , and if you did you would be embarrased for writing that!



Potter , clay! Romans 9 ................. "but you will say to me " ....... yes , it is very clear Paul had your thinking in mind!
 
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cygnusx1

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A.W. PINK'S

THE
SOVEREIGNTY
OF GOD


CHAPTER ONE GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY DEFINED

"Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine; Thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and Thou art exalted as Head above all" (1 Chron. 29:11).
The Sovereignty of God is an expression that once was generally understood. It was a phrase commonly used in religious literature. It was a theme frequently expounded in the pulpit. It was a truth which brought comfort to many hearts, and gave virility and stability to Christian character. But, today, to make mention of God's Sovereignty is, in many quarters, to speak in an unknown tongue. Were we to announce from the average pulpit that the subject of our discourse would be the Sovereignty of God, it would sound very much as though we had borrowed a phrase from one of the dead languages. Alas! that it should be so. Alas! that the doctrine which is the key to history, the interpreter of Providence, the warp and woof of Scripture, and the foundation of Christian theology should be so sadly neglected and so little understood.
The Sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the god-hood of God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in Heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Psa. 115:3). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.
How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.
To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism.
The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is Sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
Sovereignty characterizes the whole Being of God. He is Sovereign in all His attributes. He is Sovereign in the exercise of His power. His power is exercised as He wills, when He wills, where He wills. This fact is evidenced on every page of Scripture. For a long season that power appears to be dormant, and then it is put forth in irresistible might. Pharaoh dared to hinder Israel from going forth to worship Jehovah in the wilderness-what happened? God exercised His power, His people were delivered and their cruel task-masters slain. But a little later, the Amalekites dared to attack these same Israelites in the wilderness, and what happened? Did God put forth His power on this occasion and display His hand as He did at the Red Sea? Were these enemies of His people promptly overthrown and destroyed? No, on the contrary, the Lord swore that He would "have war with Amalek from generation to generation" (Exo. 17:16). Again, when Israel entered the land of Canaan, God's power was signally displayed. The city of Jericho barred their progress-what happened? Israel did not draw a bow nor strike a blow: the Lord stretched forth His hand and the walls fell down flat. But the miracle was never repeated! No other city fell after this manner. Every other city had to be captured by the sword!
Many other instances might be adduced illustrating the Sovereign exercise of God's power. Take one other example. God put forth His power and David was delivered from Goliath, the giant; the mouths of the lions were closed and Daniel escaped unhurt; the three Hebrew children were cast into the burning fiery furnace and came forth unharmed and unscorched. But God's power did not always interpose for the deliverance of His people, for we read: "And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword; they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented" (Heb. 11:36, 37). But why? Why were not these men of faith delivered like the others? Or, why were not the others suffered to be killed like these? Why should God's power interpose and rescue some and not the others? Why allow Stephen to be stoned to death, and then deliver Peter from prison?
God is Sovereign in the delegation of His power to others. Why did God endow Methuselah with a vitality which enabled him to outlive all his contemporaries? Why did God impart to Samson a physical strength which no other human has ever possessed? Again; it is written, "But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18), but God does not bestow this power on all alike. Why not? Why has He given such power to men like Morgan, Carnegie, Rockefeller? The answer to all of these questions is, Because God is Sovereign, and being Sovereign He does as He pleases.
God is Sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Necessarily so, for mercy is directed by the will of Him that showeth mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that adorable attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. But under the righteous government of God no one is wretched who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy isa contradiction of terms.
God bestows His mercies on whom He pleases and withholds them as seemeth good unto Himself. A remarkable illustration of this fact is seen in the manner that God responded to the prayers of two men offered under very similar circumstances. Sentence of death was passed upon Moses for one act of disobedience, and he besought the Lord for a reprieve. But was his desire gratified? No; he told Israel, "The LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me:and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee" (Deut. 3:26). Now mark the second case: "In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying, I beseech Thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before Thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in Thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go unto the house of the LORD. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years" (2 Kings 20:1-6). Both of these men had the sentence of death in themselves, and both prayed earnestly unto the Lord for a reprieve: the one wrote: "The Lord would not hear me," and died; but to the other it was said, "I have heard thy prayer," and his life was spared. What an illustration and exemplification of the truth expressed in Romans 9:15!-"For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
The Sovereign exercise of God's mercy-pity shown to the wretched-was displayed when Jehovah became flesh and tabernacled among men. Take one illustration. During one of the Feasts of the Jews, the Lord Jesus went up to Jerusalem. He came to the Pool of Bethesda where lay "a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water." Among this "great multitude" there was "a certain man which had an infirmity thirty and eight years." What happened? "When Jesus saw him He, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answer Him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but when I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked" (John 5:3-9). Why was this one man singled out from all the others? We are not told that he cried "Lord, have mercy on me." There is not a word in the narrative which intimates that this man possessed any qualifications which entitled him to receive special favor. Here then was a case of the Sovereign exercise of Divine mercy, for it was just as easy for Christ to heal the whole of that "great multitude" as this one "certain man." But He did not. He put forth His power and relieved the wretchedness of this one particular sufferer, and for some reason known only to Himself, He declined to do the same for the others. Again, we say, what an illustration and exemplification of Romans 9:15!-"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
 
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cygnusx1

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THE
SOVEREIGNTY
OF GOD


GOD GOVERNS THE CHILDREN OF MEN.


We fully appreciate the fact that this is the most difficult part of our subject, and, accordingly, it will be dealt with at greater length in the pages that follow; but at present we consider the fact of God's government over men in general, before we attempt to deal with the problem in detail.
Two alternatives confront us, and between them we are obliged to choose: either God governs, or He is governed; either God rules, or He is ruled; either God has His way, or men have theirs.
And is our choice between these alternatives hard to make? Shall we say that in man we behold a creature so unruly that he is beyond God's control? Shall we say that sin has alienated the sinner so far from the thrice Holy One that he is outside the pale of His jurisdiction? Or, shall we say that man has been endowed with moral responsibility, and therefore God must leave him entirely free, at least during the period of his probation? Does it necessarily follow because the natural man is an outlaw against Heaven, a rebel against the Divine government, that God is unable to fulfill His purpose through him? We mean, not merely that He may overrule the effects of the actions of evil-doers, nor that He will yet bring the wicked to stand before His judgment-bar so that sentence of punishment may be passed upon them-multitudes of non-Christians believe these things-but, we mean, that every action of the most lawless of His subjects is entirely beneath His control, yea that the actor is, though unknown to himself, carrying out the secret decrees of the Most High. Was it not thus with Judas? and is it possible to select a more extreme case? If then the arch-rebel was performing the counsel of God is it any greater tax upon our faith to believe the same of all rebels?
Our present object is no philosophic inquiry nor metaphysical causistry, but to ascertain the teaching of Scripture upon this profound theme. To the Law and the Testimony, for there only can we learn of the Divine government-its character, its design, its modus operandi, its scope. What then has it pleased God to reveal to us in His blessed Word concerning His rule over the works of His hands, and particularly, over the one who originally was made in His own image and likeness?
"In Him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). What a sweeping assertion is this! These words, be it noted, were addressed, not to one of the churches of God, not to a company of saints who had reached an exalted plane of spirituality, but to a heathen audience, to those who worshipped "the unknown God" and who "mocked" when they heard of the resurrection of the dead. And yet, to the Athenian philosophers, to the Epicureans and Stoics, the Apostle Paul did not hesitate to affirm that they lived and moved and had their being in God, which signified not only that they owed their existence and preservation to the One who made the world and all things therein, but also that their very actions were encompassed and therefore controlled by the Lord of Heaven and earth. Compare Daniel 5:23, last clause!
"The disposings (margin) of the heart, and the answer of the tongue is from the LORD" (Prov. 16:1). Mark that the above declaration is of general application-it is of "man," not simply of believers, that this is predicated. "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God? Again: "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand" (Prov. 19:21). Can this mean anything less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the will of his Maker which is executed? As an illustration take the "Rich Fool." The "devices" of his heart are made known to us-"And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there I will bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry." Such were the "devices" of his heart, nevertheless it was "the counsel of the Lord" that stood. The "I will's" of the rich man came to nought, for "God said unto him, Thou fool, this night shall thy soul be required of thee" (Luke 12:17-20).
"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will (Prov. 21:1). What could be more explicit? Out of the heart are "the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23), for as a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). If then the heart is in the hand of the Lord, and if "He turneth it whithersoever He will," then is it not clear that men, yea, governors and rulers, and so all men, are completely beneath the governmental control of the Almighty!
No limitations must be placed upon the above declarations. To insist that some men, at least, do thwart God's will and overturn His counsels, is to repudiate other Scriptures equally explicit. Weigh well the following: "But He is one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13). "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations" (Psa.33:11). "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD" (Prov. 21:30). "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isa. 14:27). "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:9, 10). There is no ambiguity in these passages. They affirm in the most unequivocal and unqualified terms that it is impossible to bring to naught the purpose of Jehovah.
We read the Scriptures in vain if we fail to discover that the actions of men, evil men as well as good, are governed by the Lord God. Nimrod and his fellows determined to erect the tower of Babel, but ere their task was accomplished God frustrated their plans. God called Abraham "alone" (Isa. 51:2), but his kinsfolk accompanied him as he left Ur of the Chaldees. Was then the will of the Lord defeated? Nay, verily. Mark the sequel. Terah died before Canaan was reached (Gen. 11:32), and though Lot accompanied his uncle into the land of promise, he soon separated from him and settled down in Sodom. Jacob was the child to whom the inheritance was promised, and though Isaac sought to reverse Jehovah's decree and bestow the blessing upon Esau, his efforts came to naught. Esau again swore vengeance upon Jacob, but when next they met they wept for joy instead of fighting in hate. The brethren of Joseph determined his destruction but their evil counsels were overthrown. Pharaoh refused to let Israel carry out the instructions of Jehovah and perished in the Red Sea for his pains. Balak hired Balaam to curse the Israelites but God compelled him to bless them. Haman erected a gallows for Mordecai but was hanged upon it himself. Jonah resisted the revealed will of God but what became of his efforts?
Ah, the heathen may "rage" and the people imagine a "vain thing"; the kings of earth may "set themselves," and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against His Christ, saying, "Let us break Their bands asunder, and cast away Their cords from us (Psa. 2:1-3). But is the great God perturbed or disturbed by the rebellion of his puny creatures? No, indeed: "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:the LORD shall have them in derision" (v. 4). He is infinitely exalted above all, and the greatest confederacies or earth's pawns, and their most extensive and vigorous preparations to defeat His purpose are, in His sight, altogether purile. He looks upon their puny efforts, not only without any alarm, but He "laughs" at their folly; He treats their impotency with "derision." He knows that He can crush them like moths when He pleases, or consume them in a moment with the breath of His mouth. Ah, it is but "a vain thing" for the potsherds of the earth to strive with the glorious Majesty of Heaven. Such is our God; worship ye Him.
Mark, too, the Sovereignty which God displayed in His dealings with men! Moses who was slow of speech, and not Aaron his elder brother who was not slow of speech, was the one chosen to be His ambassador in demanding from Egypt's monarch the release of His oppressed people. Moses again, though greatly beloved, utters one hasty word and was excluded from Canaan; whereas Elijah, passionately murmurs and suffers but a mild rebuke, and was afterwards taken to Heaven without seeing death! Uzzah merely touched the ark and was instantly slain, whereas the Philistines carried it off in insulting triumph and suffered no immediate harm. Displays of grace which would have brought a doomed Sodom to repentance failed to move an highly privileged Capernaum. Mighty works which would have subdued Tyre and Sidon left the upbraided cities of Galilee under the curse of a rejected Gospel. If they would have prevailed over the former, why were they not wrought there? If they proved ineffectual to deliver the latter then why perform them? What exhibitions are these of the Sovereign will of the Most High!

A W Pink
 
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Boxmaker

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It's common knowledge , try reading all about the second world war online.
So a notoriously unreliable extra-biblical source is where we are supposed to look for Biblical prophecy? Sorry, I was expecting a Biblical reference that said Hitler was responsible for the Jews return to Israel. I know that “Hitler” doesn’t appear in the Bible but, a lot of Biblical prophecy can only be interpreted after it happens so I was hoping you would be able to point to the proper passage. I though you might also provide a little commentary. Forgive me for expecting that.
 
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Boxmaker

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A.W. PINK'S

THE
SOVEREIGNTY
OF GOD


CHAPTER ONE GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY DEFINED


A W Pink​


Here's a shocker for ya, I do not agree, at all, with Pink's definition of God's sovergienty. It does not fit with scripture.​
 
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cygnusx1

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Here's a shocker for ya, I do not agree, at all, with Pink's definition of God's sovergienty. It does not fit with scripture.

in which case nothing I say will make you re-examine your Arminian views , that's your choice. And I won't. waste any more time .
 
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cygnusx1

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there ya go again , confounding things that differ , The Jews going back to Palestine is in scripture , the mechanism God chose (second World war) is not ...... I don't really have the time , nor the patience for these games , sorry , find someone else to play with . Bye
 
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Boxmaker

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And if we had avoided teh Second World War, God would have used a different method. Just as Joseph's brothers had done something evil to Joseph and God turned it to good, so to did God use the second world war for His own purpose. I do not believe that God intended that millions of people would die just send the Jews home to Israel.

Be that as it may, thanks for dropping by. Your contributions have been... predictable, shall we say? (Theres a pun in there, did you get it? )
 
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orthedoxy

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If it were not in God's decretive will that men sin, they would not, therefore the answer is either yes, and He is sovereign, or no, and He is not. The latter is impossible.
I have to disagree with you on what sovereign mean. The bible says God can't do a lot of things for example God can't sin, God can't lie. How could God be sovereign and not be able to lie? Your definition doesn't fit scripture.
I would agree with Box. do you believe a government or a judge be sovereign?
You misunderstand. He gathered their children as He so willed, they just were not willing and did not cooperate, and will suffer the consequences.

Read the verse again he wanted to gather but he couldn't because their unwilling to cooperate.
Jesus wanted to do something but was not able to because the people were not willing. Explain how could Jesus (God) couldn't do what he wanted to do?

The verse says:
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
God can't be the cause of the little ones who believe in him to sin.
What do you mean by decree?
How could there be choice when something is decreed?
That would be same as saying the robot chose to go right and not left.
 
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