Views on Hell and the problem with punishment

[GrimKingGrim]

There's only two choices... Don't serve God, then you serve the devil.

And if he's Odinian? Where does he stand?

 

[Freodin]

I don't really care what you think , after all since you deny my Father why should I listen to you?

Perhaps because caring about other people, listening to them... loving them!... would be a good way to understand them, and stop them from "denying your father".

But that would require effort and empathy and... love... and it is just soooo much easier to discard all of them (in, at least for you, a very real meaning.)


I know you don't care for this post either... I just found it amusing how much the followers of the God who is... love... show their disregard for anything that doesn't fall into mindless lockstep with them.

You are a shining example of a Christian in this world. Keep up the good work!

 

[GoldenBoy89]

There's only two choices... Don't serve God, then you serve the devil.

I don't serve anyone but myself. Especially not characters in ancient books that have never been shown to be real.

 

[Kristin E]

See there goes the guilt. You choose to carry guilt from childhood as means to shame yourself as an adult. It's madness. And kind of sad. I was very good at stealing as a kid and teen. I don't like that fact but it is what it is. Do I think I should be locked away and tortured because my incomplete, immature child mind caused me to do things I at the time thought it was "cool" to do?

Well Considering how much I've stolen... yes. (It's a joke, no)

But I don't feel guilt about it because it's all water under the bridge and I've since matured and reflected on that and become better because of it. I don't shoulder needless guilt around because it's just unnecessary to my progress as a person.

You don't need a god to forgive you, do you forgive you?

Do I forgive me? Yes and No. What I did wasn't right. I dabbled in bad things.

 

[Kristin E]

Perhaps because caring about other people, listening to them... loving them!... would be a good way to understand them, and stop them from "denying your father".

But that would require effort and empathy and... love... and it is just soooo much easier to discard all of them (in, at least for you, a very real meaning.)


I know you don't care for this post either... I just found it amusing how much the followers of the God who is... love... show their disregard for anything that doesn't fall into mindless lockstep with them.

You are a shining example of a Christian in this world. Keep up the good work!

I do care about people, but God comes first.

 

[Freodin]

I do care about people, but God comes first.

Sure you do, honey! And you are showing it in such a great way!

 

[Wryetui]

You are right. I do deny the bible is the "word of God" mainly because I think a god who can do anything wouldn't choose to communicate through such an inefficient method like telling some nameless people, 25 to 30 centuries ago to "write this down, and pass it on." Why not just talk to us straight? It really would go a long way in giving the story a little more credibility if it didn't come from the minds and mouths of fallible, corrupted men but instead directly from God. Why does He need people to speak for Him?

Right. I don't believe that beings I don't believe exist have ever communicated with humans in any way at any point in history. The bible is the work of men and, it's not even all that good. The bible should have been written by Mark Twain. THAT would be a book worth reading.

I believe the authors of the bible, being the only people who could read and write at the time, were very smart and knew exactly what they were doing. They were creating a basic system of ethics and law and order when they wrote the bible. But people wont just do as they are told. They need either a cookie when they're good or a punishment when they are bad. This is where the heaven/hell concept comes in real handy. They are the ultimate reward/punishment and are predicated on the fear of death that we all have. That's gonna motivate a lot of people to do what you want them to do.

That's your theory, but the evidence doesn't point at that. We have the testimonies of people claiming to talk and to speak with God, not even the writers of the Bible but even of saints today and in the past, so why wouldn't you believe them? You have no evidence that they were under drugs or smart people lying so they can get... wait, what exactly? What do they get? Nothing, so you just call them smart people lying, what's the evidence for that? Just because you don't believe them it doesn't make them liars, just because what happened to them can't fit into your biased brain it doesn't mean it isn't truth.

 

[Freodin]

That's your theory, but the evidence doesn't point at that. We have the testimonies of people claiming to talk and to speak with God, not even the writers of the Bible but even of saints today and in the past, so why wouldn't you believe them? You have no evidence that they were under drugs or smart people lying so they can get... wait, what exactly? What do they get? Nothing, so you just call them smart people lying, what's the evidence for that? Just because you don't believe them it doesn't make them liars, just because what happened to them can't fit into your biased brain it doesn't mean it isn't truth.

"Smart people" who are not under the influence of drugs are claiming to talk and to speak with God, and say something very different from what your people tell. Some smart people are even claiming to talk to completely different gods.

Are they lying?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Do I forgive me? Yes and No. What I did wasn't right. I dabbled in bad things.

And you believe you should shoulder that guilt for the rest of your life? As a child, the mind isn't fully developed so your behavior can rarely be seen as rational all the time. Why put such weight upon your own conscience when it's just a part of growing up? And when is the time that you can finally own up your past actions and forgive and accept yourself rather than seek forgiveness and acceptance from an unseen third party?

When are you going to do that?

Because constantly seeking those from a third party doesn't change how you feel about you, it's just there to coast you along and make you feel better. But it's hollow.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

That's your theory, but the evidence doesn't point at that.

It doesn't point at an infinitely intelligent agent with perfect love, justice and compassion for His creation either. So I guess we are both wrong in that respect.

We have the testimonies of people claiming to talk and to speak with God, not even the writers of the Bible but even of saints today and in the past, so why wouldn't you believe them?

Because God has never spoken to me. Why should I believe that He has spoken to others. Do you always just accept what people tell you?

You have no evidence that they were under drugs or smart people lying so they can get... wait, what exactly? What do they get?

Power, control, the same things all people ever put in any position of authority try to get. In this case, what greater authority would there be besides God? None so the people are almost guaranteed to follow along especially when the system plays on their biggest fears (dying/eternal punishment).

Nothing, so you just call them smart people lying, what's the evidence for that?

The fact that they were the only people who could read and write at the time and that they were men in power and governance and well, your bible does call men liars... I don't see why these men would be exempt from that.

Just because you don't believe them it doesn't make them liars, just because what happened to them can't fit into your biased brain it doesn't mean it isn't truth.

Just because you do believe them doesn't mean what they are saying is true. To me, if it didn't come directly from God then it probably wasn't God who said it.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

That's your theory, but the evidence doesn't point at that. We have the testimonies of people claiming to talk and to speak with God, not even the writers of the Bible but even of saints today and in the past, so why wouldn't you believe them?

I saw Jesus too. We talked alot about Fettuccine Alfredo. Do you believe me?

You have no evidence that they were under drugs or smart people lying so they can get... wait, what exactly? What do they get?

Political and social power and all of the benefits that come with that in an ignorant society that would believe pretty much anything? I've explained this to you before in great detail. Shows you don't absorb information very well or you just flatout refuse to even think about it. Either way it just makes you look like a blank dry erase marker board rather than say an encyclopedia.

Nothing, so you just call them smart people lying, what's the evidence for that?

Past societies who have also been theocracies and the vast wealth and power of those high up in the religious ranks? Study up on what a theocracy does. Also look at how wealthy the Catholic church is, if you're not even gonna absorb information from someone who's straight up telling you then the least you can do is observe it with your own two eyes.

Seriously man, get... a... clue.

Just because you don't believe them it doesn't make them liars, just because what happened to them can't fit into your biased brain it doesn't mean it isn't truth.

He's probably using the obvious evidence that points to obvious conclusions. The same evidence you willingly ignore. No big, eventually you'll look at it.

 

[Kristin E]

And you believe you should shoulder that guilt for the rest of your life? As a child, the mind isn't fully developed so your behavior can rarely be seen as rational all the time. Why put such weight upon your own conscience when it's just a part of growing up? And when is the time that you can finally own up your past actions and forgive and accept yourself rather than seek forgiveness and acceptance from an unseen third party?

When are you going to do that?

Because constantly seeking those from a third party doesn't change how you feel about you, it's just there to coast you along and make you feel better. But it's hollow.

I was around 16 I should have known better, but I agree I need to learn to forgive myself.
I hold a lot of pent up guilt and anger against so many it seems.
God had nothing to do with my anger, again its guilt I feel I inadvertently caused my mothers suicide.
I had a terrible childhood, if God were not real then where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

 

[FireDragon76]

God doesn't have to threaten anybody, he offers salvation freely to those who would believe. The "threats" you see are merely the equivalent of a parent warning of consequences, such as running across a street without looking.

Within this life our freedom is not absolute. But that's part of being a creature. That doesn't make God evil.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I was around 16 I should have known better, but I agree I need to learn to forgive myself.

The best path to happiness is self forgiveness and acceptance. It has to come from within and not from an outside party. Outside parties should add to your happiness but not be the main source.

I hold a lot of pent up guilt and anger against so many it seems.

I did too. Bullying isn't fun.

God had nothing to do with my anger, again its guilt I feel I inadvertently caused my mothers suicide.

It has nothing to do with God. It shouldn't.

And don't force that type of guilt on yourself. Just love the memories you shared with her and honor them. Continue on in your life and be a person you believe your mother would be proud of. Continue to make her and yourself happy. It's what any mother would want.

I do the same for my grandfather, he died when I was 9. His death hits me harder than anything to this day. And I would give anything to have him to see me as a man today. But I can't change that, so the best I can do is live a life he'd be proud to see me living. And love every memory I had with him.

I had a terrible childhood, if God were not real then where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

Because of my on conviction to not influence others philosophical beliefs I can't answer that with an answer. Those answers have to come from you. But at least you're asking the right questions.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

God doesn't have to threaten anybody, he offers salvation freely to those who would believe. The "threats" you see are merely the equivalent of a parent warning of consequences, such as running across a street without looking.

Within this life our freedom is not absolute. But that's part of being a creature. That doesn't make God evil.

He "offers" salvation with the alternative.

"But if you don't [insert punishment] so whaddoya say? "

"Those are my only two options?"

"Yes. But you're free to choose one or the other, no pressure."

"What kind of- I don't even."

 

[Wryetui]

The thing is that we are inevitably His creation, after all we all should do what He intended us to, that's why He created us, our protoparents ruined it all so with Christ we can return to that eternal communion with God which we lost because of sin, that's the purpose we have in this life, the rest of the things we do are just dreams, are just vain waves that break when they reach the rocks and are moved by the wind, that's our purpose in this life.

 

[Skavau]

God doesn't have to threaten anybody, he offers salvation freely to those who would believe. The "threats" you see are merely the equivalent of a parent warning of consequences, such as running across a street without looking.

Within this life our freedom is not absolute. But that's part of being a creature. That doesn't make God evil.

The consequences that God enabled or allowed.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

The thing is that we are inevitably His creation, after all we all should do what He intended us to, that's why He created us

So I'm no better than this:

Created for one reason and if I don't do that I'm trash.

Score one for human dignity! HIGH FIVE!

our protoparents ruined it all

Adam and Eve were setup.

so with Christ we can return to that eternal communion with God which we lost because of sin

Apparently you're lost at birth because someone ate an apple. But apparently children are okay with God until they're no longer okay with him because ... reasons.

that's the purpose we have in this life

That's a horribly narrow purpose.

the rest of the things we do are just dreams

Disgusting notion that frankly insults me so much that it deserves no dignifying.

are just vain waves that break when they reach the rocks and are moved by the wind, that's our purpose in this life.

Again, disgusting. You believe humans are toys built for one purpose and if they're not adherent to that then they are defective and should be thrown away. Wow. The self-esteem in this post is just so low. It disturbs me.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

God doesn't have to threaten anybody, he offers salvation freely to those who would believe.

Intellectual honesty is all that would cost me, then. I cannot in good faith say that I believe in god when in reality I don't think such a being exists. The first person I need to be honest with is myself and honestly, I don't believe any gods are "out there" somewhere, anywhere. I honestly don't believe they exist. And that's the messed up part about God's plan... I have to accept the story first, change my life around and submit to something that has never been shown to be more than human imagination. Otherwise, as the story goes, I will suffer unimaginable pain and agony for the rest of eternity.

This is not something anybody would support if it were the government using this tactic. We would find it deplorable and a revolution would ensue to overthrow such an oppressive government. It's reminiscent of North Korea.

The "threats" you see are merely the equivalent of a parent warning of consequences, such as running across a street without looking.

Within this life our freedom is not absolute. But that's part of being a creature. That doesn't make God evil.

The parent and child in your example both live in a world that they do not have the power to change. Further, the parent only knows about the dangers in this world through trial and error. God, being a god and all, does not have either of these problems. He, being the one who personally designed and created the entire universe created the conditions that could lead a person to hell. There is no escaping this unless you want your god to be either impotent, or uncaring or purposely setting us up to fail.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The thing is that we are inevitably His creation, after all we all should do what He intended us to, that's why He created us, our protoparents ruined it all so with Christ we can return to that eternal communion with God which we lost because of sin, that's the purpose we have in this life, the rest of the things we do are just dreams, are just vain waves that break when they reach the rocks and are moved by the wind, that's our purpose in this life.

Does He care more about the creation itself or about us as individuals?