View of Salvation

[ratchet30]

I'm interested in the Mennonite church and was wondering, do they view salvation as once saved always saved or do they believe that one can turn away from Christ?

 

[mighty2save]

They believe one is saved by grace through faith only. But Mennonites hold the Anabaptist belief that one can turn from their Salvation. This belief comes from the following:
[bible]"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If They shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"[/bible]
This verse comes from Hebrews 6:4-6. Richard Mummau (an Anabaptist/Mennonite) wrote a discourse on a website but I do not have enough posts to put a link so here it is below. The below will really explain the main thought to you which is basically Christians are much quiker to write people off then God and we are much more secure then we possibly think. But one can deny the Lord and turn from their faith.

Many sincere Christians after reading these two verses have become discouraged and have almost given up the faith because they have decided that they sinned and have no hope to repent again. This conclusion is arrived at because they read these verses without considering the context in which it is written. While God has given us warnings in the Scriptures, this passage is really intended to instruct us how to deal redemptively in bringing backsliders back into the fellowship with God and the church. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, but the truth taught here is for all times and for all Christians.

Briefly stated, this passage is declaring that:

1. It is possible for a saved person to fall away from the faith.
   
2. When a saved person falls away from the faith, it does not mean that he was not "born again" initially.
   
3. When a saved person falls away from the faith it is possible to restore them, but it is impossible to restore them the same way they were saved the first time. In other words, a person cannot be born again the second time.

The writer states in Hebrews 5:11-14 that the Hebrews were not growing in their Christian experience. He says they "are dull of hearing," and still babes. The phrase "word of righteousness" in Heb 5:13 is referring to the way in which God saves a person and brings him into a right relationship with Himself.

The Jewish religious economy is known for its many sacrifices. Every year the Jews had to bring a sin offering. The Hebrew Christians were now confronted with the truth that Jesus Christ had by one offering made the final sacrifice for all sin for all time. They were having trouble accepting and applying this truth. They had helped people through to a salvation experience with Jesus Christ. These new believers had given evidence of being saved or "born again." There was fruit that gave evidence that they were indeed Christians. But some of these Christians after a period of time fell away from the faith. When this happened the Jewish Christians thought that they were not properly converted the first time, so they had them start over again. In other words, they tried to have them become "born again" the second time rather than making things right and starting off where they lost out. They did this by discounting all that happened before and making them believe again, repent again, laying hands on them again in baptism, etc. By doing everything again they were implying that the reason they fell away was that God's work in their lives wasn't sufficient the first time. When they did this they were "holding Him up to open shame and crucifying Him afresh."

This interpretation of Hebrews 6:6 is supported by Hebrews 6:1-3. In these verses the Paul tells the Jewish Christians, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,....not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands." Verses 7 and 8 are given as an example of what the Hebrew Christians were doing. One kind of earth was watered and blessed by God. Some earth brought forth herbs, and some of the same earth brought forth thorns and briars. What the Hebrew Christians were doing by having Christians start over again was the same as saying that God's rain and blessing on the earth that brought forth thorns and briars was not good enough, when it was the condition of the earth that made the difference. In this example the earth represents those who have experienced the new birth. Likewise, when a person falls away, it is because of some fault or failure in the exercise of faith of the persons who falls away, not because Jesus didn't do His work right when He saved that person.

There is a current doctrine that says if a person falls away, they were not saved in the first place. Often people will say that the person only "tasted" salvation, but did not experience it. This passage clearly refutes this teaching. Hebrews 6:1-8 is teaching that when a person falls away and does repent, he continues from where he left off. The phrase "For it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance" is referring to taking them back to another New Birth. Also, Hebrews 2:9 says that Jesus was willing to taste death for every man, and we know that Jesus actually experienced death. The word taste is translated from the same Greek word in both Hebrews 6:5 and Hebrews 2:9. Generally, the reason people interpret taste in this way is tomake room for their doctrine "Once saved, always saved."

The Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Romans says that "if we live after the flesh, we shall die", so it is possible for a Christian to come to the place when he dies spiritually and is no longer a Christian. But when this person repents and comes again into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, it is a person being brought back from the dead, not being born again the second time. When Lazarus gave evidence of being alive after he was buried in the tomb, it was not because he was "born again," but because he was brought back to life. There are numerous instances in the Scriptures of people being restored to life, and not one of them was "reborn." The account of the prodigal son is another example. He was born, left home, and returned in repentance. His father said when he returned "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found."

An example of being "born again" the second time is -- if when Israel sinned after crossing the Red Sea, Moses would have tried to take the Israelites back into Egypt and let God bring them out again. Another example would be to tell a person who made a wrong turn in Indiana on his way from Pennsylvania to California that he had to go back to Pennsylvania and start over.

The Apostle Paul's statement in Galatians 4:19 where he says "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" is only indicating that he was having to put as much effort and suffer as much pain trying to establish them as he did when he helped to convert them. He calls them "little children" and later brethren, so he was not trying to make Christians out of them, but only trying to help them grow up into fully mature Christians.

Let us consider some other implications we face if we consider those who are restored to the faith as being "born again" another time. Do we as a church rebaptize a person when that person strays from the faith and returns? Generally all they have to do is make confession of their sin, prove themselves, and we restore them to membership again. When we talk to backsliders, do we ask them to accept Christ, or do we just tell them to repent of their sins and be restored again.

I know a person who was born again and afterward had much restitution to make. He had stolen money which he repaid. If He falls away again, should he try to be "born again," and if he does, must he go back and make the same restitution again? We all know the answer is no. We only ask him to repent of the sins that caused him to fall and to make things right from the time he fell away.

This passage gives the Christian assurance and peace in that it confirms that to fail in some area of our Christian experience is not an indication that we are not truly saved. It assures us that what Christ did for us at our conversion is sufficient and that we can trust Him to continue to work in our lives. The blessings experienced by the Passover Blood in Egypt were not an end in themselves, but were continually benefited from as they allowed God to continue to lead them. Now this article is not to negate the fact that a person can depart from the faith to such a degree that he is no longer a saved person. There are many other Scriptures that declare that our salvation is conditional.

There are also Scriptures that make it clear that people can depart so far from the faith that they cannot return, but Hebrews 6:2-4 is not one of them. Romans 1:24 makes it clear that people can become so reprobate that God will give them up to vile affections. Read also Romans 1:26. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 also declares that God will send people strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrightousness. When God gives people up, there is no hope for them any more. The reason is that no man cometh unto Jesus unless God draws him, and when God gives someone over to a reprobate mind, that drawing power is no longer working in that individual. When God gives someone up He does it by completely leaving him and allowing him to be controlled by his own lusts and desires. We must be careful that we do not decide when this is. Only God knows when a person comes to that place. We are to continue to help everyone that we can to come to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. I know a person who was accused of being so reprobate that there was no hope for him. Well, today that person is a born again Christian and a member of a conservative Mennonite Church.

Probably we should distinguish between a backslider and an apostate. A backslider knows he is wrong, but he is not willing to change. An apostate has convinced himself that he is right and promotes his error as truth. I tend to think that the Apostate is beyond hope. This brings us to another doctrine we should look at.

We are often asked if we believe a person can "lose" their salvation. Most of us probably would say yes. But do we really "lose" our salvation? People can "cease to be a believer." When a person begins to live in sin and disobey the Scriptures, it is because he does not really "believe" the Scriptures. This is not to say that the person who commits a sin has ceased to believe. But when a person can habitually practice those things that the Bible labels sin, they cease to be a believer. Often these are practices that they at one time would have called sin.

Our terminology often leaves people confused and frustrated. When we meet a person who knows only the Calvinistic doctrine of "unconditional eternal security" and we say they can "lose" their salvation, the first thing that comes to their mind is that they can come to the end of a day and not be saved and not know about it. It is like a person working all day and when he goes to his car and reaches in his pocket he cannot find his car key. He lost his keys. This is how those who believe in unconditional eternal security define or understand our use of the term lose. It is easy to understand how this concept would be reprehensible to them.

The Scriptures teach that redemption is all of God, but salvation is conditional and based upon a conscious act of our will in the exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures also teach that a person who continues to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ is secure. But when a person begins to neglect his spiritual life he will come to the place where he is not truly exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. He may continue to say he believes, but it is only a verbal belief and not a conscious exercise of the will to live for God. That is all that saving faith is, a conscious exercise of the will to always do what we believe the Bible teaches. It is also obeying the voice of the Spirit in areas where the Scriptures are silent.

When a person continues to habitually practice sin, he "ceases to be a believer" and is no longer a Christian. So the statement "The believer is eternally secure" is a correct statement. It is the definition of who is a believer that must be answered.

Our tendency though, is to write people off quicker than God writes them off. I am convinced that true Christians are more secure then they think they are, and those who are careless in their Christian walk, are probably not as secure as they think they are. May God help us continue to consciously exercise a living faith in Jesus Christ, and may we do it in such a way that others are led to Him.

 

[NOTurTypical]

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If They shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"

It's sad Christians use this verse to claim that Christians can be "lost". The context this book of the Bible was written in was to Jews, while the temple was still standing in Jerusalem. Because of intense persecution from the Jewish authorities many Jews who had accepted Christ as their savior were strongly tempted to "switch" back to Judaism and ritual sacrifice to keep themselves from persecution. Paul was exhorting them to remain faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ in the face of intense persecution.

One verse in Hebrews taken out of the context which it was written in cannot nullify other verses stating the eternal security of a believer. Remember folks, salvation is a work of the Lord, it's not based upon our faithfulness but HIS.

 

[2thePoint]

The Greek in that passage is interesting because the word "IF" does not appear. It is a long sentence with many participles (tasting, being illuminated, falling away), and when such words appear with the aorist tense it usually indicates a "second class condition" (ref. here), except that the IF is missing. If it is indeed a 2nd class cond., it "assumes the premise as false for the sake of argument". Then the passage would mean that this is all hypothetical: if it were possible to lose salvation, it would be impossible to regain it. Notice also that the next passage begins with "But", such that what the writer of Hebrews is discussing has nothing to do with the reality of our salvation.

 

[2thePoint]

An interesting discussion at b-Greek :

After examining this verse as part of a recent conversation - in which the
points that Kelley and Carl made were brought up (by me), I've had a couple
thoughts:

1) The "falling away" would necessarily come after the other events ("being
enlightened," "tasting," etc.), so in context I think it would be
reasonable to take it as an adverbial circumstantial participle. Even if it
is adjectival, their having "fallen away" would still be subsequent to all
these other things they did/participated in.

2) The fact that "having fallen away" is NOT followed by an "object" -
whereas all the other participles (except for the first one - "having been
enlightened" - though the TE, closely tying it with "having tasted OF THE
HEAVENLY GIFT," may mean it "shares" the object of "having tasted"? - also,
see my next point) do have an "object" - i.e., tasted THE HEAVENLY GIFT,
became partakers OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, tasted THE GOOD WORD OF GOD AND THE
POWERS OF THE COMING AGE - anyway, this lack of an "object" for "having
fallen away" MAY indicate that the author does wish it to be a
circumstantial adverbial participle. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

3) Does the TE between those who "have once-for-all been enlightened" and
those who "have tasted of the heavenly gift" imply that the hAPAX
(once-for-all) applies to both their "enlightenment/illumination" AND their
"having tasted"? I can't see that hAPAX would apply to ALL the participles
- and certainly not to "having fallen away" if PARAPESONTAS is adjectival.

4) Not having a Greek text of Justin Martyr's First Apology, when he uses
the word "illuminated" (under his chapter 65 or somewhere around there -
it's his chapter on Christian Baptism) to describe baptism, is it the same
word as here, i.e., FWTIZW?

5) On to theology (but in the context of the Greek text): To me, the GAR in
6:4 means the author is giving the explanation/reason/basis for 6:1-2:
i.e., the REASON one should not again (PALIN) lay a foundation of
repentance (METANOIA) (from dead works) is because if a person has
once-for-all been enlightened, etc., and (then) has fallen away, it is
impossible to again (PALIN) renew them to repentance (METANOIA). Thus, this
would most likely refer to believers who apostasized.

6) With respect to an earlier post, I believe by Dale Wheeler(?) (I
apologize to Dale if this wasn't his post or his point), where those who
fell in the desert had nevertheless been "delivered" from Egypt, etc. -
hence this "falling away" could not be a loss of salvation, but perhaps a
loss of rewards - the seeming close relation of chapter 6 to the end of
chapter 10 - "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" - indicates to me
that it's talking about loss of salvation - and, contra to the statement
that "burning" refers to a cleansing/restorative rather than a destructive
act, the branches that produce no fruit are "burned" in John 15:6 and Jesus
"burns" the chaff in the gospels - so I think a good case can be made that
the burning in 6:8 is a burning to destruction.

Any thoughts?

 

[a pilgrim]

Wow. That all sounds so complicated. I thought is was an Epistle to the Hebrews. Sometime, try reading the epistle as if it is not owned by the Arminians or the Calvinists, but instead, as it is called, is an epistle to Hebrews who have either just came to faith, or are not yet there. It cast new light on who the object of the pronouns are. For example:

Heb.1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb.2
[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Heb.3
[16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
[18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb.4
[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
If we care going to be faithful with the word of God, we need to interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews in context. It was to the Hebrews. They, collectively, as a nation of people to whom the Gospel was given first, (then to the Gentiles,) can no longer look to the old system. If they fail to embrace the New Covenant, just as their fathers failed to enter into the Land, by faith, there is no other option.
They, the Hebrews, were being warned that they, the Hebrews, would fall away. If we look at them for the most part, they have. With the exception of believing Jews, Judaism has led the Jews to destruction. To be scattered to the four winds until the time of the end.

Ben

 

[NOTurTypical]

"Wow. That all sounds so complicated."



That's because Greek is ridiculously complicated and precise. Verbs have to meet 5 different conditions to just be used. It sounds "complicated" to you because English is one of the laziest languages invented by mankind.

 

[2thePoint]

Whether we like it or not, the Bible is an ancient text in a dialect not spoken today. It requires the expertise of linguists, archaeologists, etc. just to make the dictionary of koine Greek words and inform us of the period's figures of speech, historical setting, etc. And often there is disagreement among such scholars, some of which can affect our understanding of a passage.

By wrestling with these difficulties we at least can make an informed judgment and try our best to understand what's being taught in the pages of scripture. Many cults and schisms have arisen from reliance solely upon one translation or another, one commentary or another, one popular theologian or another. We value their educated opinions but at the end of the day we are responsible for what we believe.

Salvation, the topic at hand, is of vital importance, so we need to make sure we aren't getting that wrong, and the only way to know that is by making sure we have a good grasp of the passage pertaining to that topic. Only after we've done our homework can we say with assurance that we understand. Yes, salvation and the Christian life are actually very simple. But as long as there are false teachers or simply misguided ones, we have to remain vigilant.

I'm not saying we have to be theologians to know and spread the gospel, but that anyone spreading a teaching better be qualified, and the rest of us better be Bereans.

I think there is great blessing in scouring the pages of scripture. But I try not to lose site of the "forest", and have written some articles on just how simply our faith can be expressed:

How to Follow Jesus
Three Laws Saved

 

[a pilgrim]

I realize we are getting WAY off topic from the OP, but I disagree in that, there are very few Greek/Hebrew/Chaldee scholars, but there are A WHOLE LOT of carpenters, mechanics, housewives, teenagers, garbage collectors, etc., who would NEVER understand God's will and way for their life if they had to know ALL that stuff.

No, instead, God circumnavigates all the textual problems by keeping his word pure, preserved, and inspired for modern man. Scholars complicate, humble followers of Christ simply obey.

 

[2thePoint]

No, instead, God circumnavigates all the textual problems by keeping his word pure, preserved, and inspired for modern man. Scholars complicate, humble followers of Christ simply obey.

Is this a KJVO plug?

Anyway, why stop there? Lots of people can't even read, so should we just throw the Bible out and "obey" someone we stake our spiritual lives on? What does it mean to be a Berean?

 

[NOTurTypical]

I realize we are getting WAY off topic from the OP, but I disagree in that, there are very few Greek/Hebrew/Chaldee scholars, but there are A WHOLE LOT of carpenters, mechanics, housewives, teenagers, garbage collectors, etc., who would NEVER understand God's will and way for their life if they had to know ALL that stuff.

No, instead, God circumnavigates all the textual problems by keeping his word pure, preserved, and inspired for modern man. Scholars complicate, humble followers of Christ simply obey.

There isn't "very few", there are literally tens of thousands alive today. And exponentially more centuries ago. And I realize there are millions of folks not trained in the ancient languages, that's why easy salvation verses are also in the Word of God.

Check out Romans 10:9.

 

[2thePoint]

Spam Alert!

 

[Sword7]

Jesus said we must be born again or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus also said, nothing and no one can snatch these believers out of His hands.

I believe Jesus.

 

[childofdust]

Remember folks, salvation is a work of the Lord, it's not based upon our faithfulness but HIS.

This brings things back nicely to the Anabaptist perspective...

The Anabapatists emerged out of a society that believed that. In one moment, the people around the Anabaptists said "it's not based upon our faithfulness" and in the other moment, they went out whoring, murdering, lying, cheating, abusing, and working wickedness. The Anabaptists wanted no part of that. Workers of iniquity have no part in the kingdom of YHWH. What company do light and dark have with each other? It is only those who run the race who may make it in the end. It is only those who keep their light burning who will take part in the wedding feast.

 

[Jeffersonian]

sooo.... i think nobody really answer the question : how do anabaptists perceive salvation? can you choose God? or God choose you? can you lose your salvation? or you are always saved? can man resist God grace? Did Jesus die for the whole world or only for the so called ''elect''?

 

[childofdust]

It is right what you say... No systematic answer is fast coming from most Anabaptists when it comes to the Protestant focus on "salvation". Probably because it was never all that important to us (we're not Protestant). Here's my answer:

A non-Anabaptist went up to the farmer and said "what is your belief about that tree over there giving forth fruit"? "Well," said the farmer, "God gave me a seed, I planted it, I tended it as faithfully as I might, God sent rain upon it, and it bore fruit. If I chop the tree down, it won't bear fruit, will it?"

There's another answer on the web site "The Theology of Anabaptism by Robert Friedmann Part Three" (google it). Here is an excerpt:

"soteriology," traditionally the very nucleus of all theology, is not and cannot be a major theme in Anabaptist thought. The concern as to "how to escape eternal damnation," or in Luther's terms, "how to find a gracious God," was certainly not a major concern of the Anabaptists. As has been said, they did not start with the crushing awareness of being lost sinners but began rather with the glorious experience of regeneration or spiritual rebirth. This signifies basically a positive experience of God's grace which subsequently leads to a rather different chain of insights.

 

[a pilgrim]

Because Anabaptism was a "movement," and not a denomination, one cannot give the "tells-all" answer for them. However, having said that, for the most part, anabaptist would tend to be of the Arminian persuassion. I spoke to a well-known pastor, of one of the contemporary anabaptist "movements," and he told me it was like this, being saved is the act of placing saving faith in the finished work of Christ. It is an act of the will. If one fails to continue, as it were, in the faith, daily believing upon the sacrifice of Christ for their sins, they could walk away from their faith. One of their favorite verses is as follows:

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Cor. 9:27

There logic is that the English word, castaway, is the Greek word, adokimos, which is translated "reprobate" in 6 other passages. So, they conclude that this verse, and one's like it prove that one can, by an act of their will, cast themselves away from the faith.