Video: Randomness vs Evolution

[Kylie]

you said that we can compare a cell-phone with a living thing since a cell-phone cant reproduce. right? so here i used a self replicating object. so now according to your criteria such a cell-phone that can reproduce is suppose to be able to evolve since it can reproduce.

So you invoke hypothetical self-replicating cell phone components, and then demand that I somehow know every single step that they must take to assemble into a phone?

They don't even exist in the first place, they are purely the result of your imagination, and you are demanding I answer technical questions about them!

 

[pitabread]

That's what I meant. The presence of a non-evolvable system in nature (which is what I suspect Xianghua means by "IC" in nature) is an a priori argument for which any hypothetical evolutionary pathway for that system is logically sufficient as a refutation. The actual pathway need not be demonstrated.

Agreed.

This is why I think that IDists need to quit trying to argue against evolution and start coming up with a plausible mechanism for design.

 

[xianghua]

The "idea" of an IC system is vacuous. In order to demonstrate the "idea" of an IC system in nature you would have to show us one for which no possible evolutionary pathway could be conceived of to produce it.

can you as intelliget designer make a sonar stepwise?

 

[xianghua]

So you invoke hypothetical self-replicating cell phone components, and then demand that I somehow know every single step that they must take to assemble into a phone?

They don't even exist in the first place, they are purely the result of your imagination, and you are demanding I answer technical questions about them!

no problem. you can show it with your own cell-phone. it should be easy to show it if evolution is true.and as i explained above its irrelevant that your cell-phone cant reproduce. so dont claim again "my phone cant reproduce".

 

[xianghua]

No, we were talking about cell phones. At which point it was mentioned that cell phones don't reproduce. And once again, you invented a magic fantasy version of cell phones that you claim could reproduce. Even though no such thing exists in nature.

When that was explained to you, you then changed the subject. You do this every single time.



If you're invoking an unbounded designer with no limitations, then you're basically talking about magic. In which case the discussion is irrelevant because magic can be used as an answer for anything and everything.

we are not talking about magic now but about the question of stepwise.

 

[Speedwell]

can you as intelliget designer make a sonar stepwise?

I don't see why not, but as a person with training as an engineer I think it would be a dumb way to do it. The principle reason I think so is that as an "intelligent designer" I begin with the goal--a functioning sonar system--and can proceed directly to design the finished system. On the other hand, if I was to do it stepwise like evolution I would have to figure out a series of incremental steps, each one functional in some way and not necessarily leading directly to the goal. Not worth the trouble.

 

[xianghua]

On the other hand, if I was to do it stepwise like evolution I would have to figure out a series of incremental steps, each one functional in some way and not necessarily leading directly to the goal. Not worth the trouble.

and can you do that?

 

[Speedwell]

and can you do that?

Yes. But as I said, it is not a practical approach for a designer who knows what the finished system is supposed to be like.

The random variation and selection method is only appropriate where the nature of the final goal is unspecified, save only that the system must be better in some (any) way than it was before.

 

[xianghua]

Yes.

so what is your first step?

 

[Speedwell]

so what is your first step?

First step of what? For this scenario I would have to know whether two-way radio communication was already established as a regular thing. But what is the point of the exercise?

 

[xianghua]

First step of what? For this scenario I would have to know whether two-way radio communication was already established as a regular thing. But what is the point of the exercise?

the point is to show you that you cant do that. you cant start with a functional single part and end up with a sonar system.

 

[Speedwell]

the point is to show you that you cant do that. you cant start with a functional single part and end up with a sonar system.

Oh, a sonar system. For some reason I lost track and thought we were talking about cell phones.

OK, what single part am I starting with and what is its function?

 

[xianghua]

OK, what single part am I starting with and what is its function?

yes.

 

[Speedwell]

yes.

Yes, what is this single part I am starting with and what is its function?

 

[Kylie]

no problem. you can show it with your own cell-phone. it should be easy to show it if evolution is true.and as i explained above its irrelevant that your cell-phone cant reproduce. so dont claim again "my phone cant reproduce".

Wow, no.

You can't insist I place your magical phone parts into this.

 

[xianghua]

Yes, what is this single part I am starting with and what is its function?

you should tell me. you are the one who said that its possible. not me.

 

[Speedwell]

you should tell me. you are the one who said that its possible. not me.

OK, I'll start with a creature which can hear and make noises. The creature makes noises and listens for the echos. Sonar system complete.

 

[xianghua]

OK, I'll start with a creature which can hear and make noises. The creature makes noises and listens for the echos. Sonar system complete.

so your first step is the abillity to make noise. right?

 

[Speedwell]

so your first step is the abillity to make noise. right?

No, the first step is to be sensitive to environmental sounds. Without that, making noise would be of no use.

 

[xianghua]

No, the first step is to be sensitive to environmental sounds. Without that, making noise would be of no use.

why not? it can reject predators or something.