victorinus

[victorinus]

there was a time when I didn't believe in purgatory
-a visit to a nursing home changed that
-these people were in purgatory
-I no longer felt sorry for them
-they had made it
-it was just a matter of time
-Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, per dan 12:10 nab
-they had past the test
-being refined and purified will just take a little more time
-it doesn't have to be a nursing home
-old age even in your home can prepare you for what's ahead

 

[Biblewriter]

Which illustrates the central error of your position, as you have no scriptural instruction to point to that teaches you to apply a polar opposite interpretation to the language used in Matt 24 from the interpretation you apply to the same language found in the OT regarding all of the previous "Day of the Lord" events that transpired in OT times.

If you apply a symbolic interpretation of Sun Darkening, Moon turning to blood, Heavens receding, stars falling, mountains melting, God riding a Cloud, wielding His sword, seen by every eye, etc..to the Past fulfilled OT "Day of the Lord" events, you need to show where the Bible teaches you literalize that language when you find it in the NT.

In the first place, I was not speaking of the language that you assume is apocalyptic in Matthew 24, but to the explicitly stated events:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matthew 24:15-27)

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:36-44)

These events, explicitly stated in Matthew 24, do not even approximately match the events described by the secular historians who recorded the events in Judea around the time of A.D. 70. But your error goes far deeper than this. In the following posts I will address each of the examples you have given.

 

[Biblewriter]

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:


God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

The last part of this chapter very clearly shows that this is not speaking of ANY ancient judgment of Egypt, but is speaking of a time that, even to this day, has not yet come to pass.

16 In that day Egypt will be like women, and will be afraid and fear because of the waving of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which He waves over it. 17 And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts which He has determined against it. 18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. 19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. 21 Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. 22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them. 23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. 24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria--a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance." (Isaiah 19:16-25)

There is no rational way to even pretend that anything even approximately resembling these explicitly stated events has ever taken place.

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Your ASSUMPTION, for that is all it is, that this is speaking of God coming to end the kingdom of Saul, has no merit. For Saul’s kingdom did not end by the hand of God, but by his own hand. For Saul committed suicide, as recorded in 1 Samuel 31:4, “Then Saul said to his armorbearer, ‘Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me.’ But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.”

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

Again, if you had just bothered to read the entire passage, you would have known that this is speaking of events that are still in the future. For it says, “11 From you comes forth on Who plots evil against the LORD, A wicked counselor. 12 Thus says the LORD: "Though they are safe, and likewise many, Yet in this manner they will be cut down When he passes through. Though I have afflicted you, I will afflict you no more; For now I will break off his yoke from you, And burst your bonds apart.”(Nahum 1:11-13)

Even you realize that the affliction of Israel did not end with the ancient destruction of Nineveh. The truth is, that there are a large number of unfulfilled prophecies about this wicked ruler that will come forth out of Nineveh. These include Micah 5:3-5 and Isaiah 10:28-32, among others.

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

This was indeed about the ancient destruction of Egypt. And it indeed called it “the day of the Lord.” This term was also used in other places of ancient judgments. But this passage does not use the apocalyptic language you are speaking of.

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Here, your very quotation itself proves that this is not speaking of the ancuent judgment of Israel. For the exact words you quoted are: “I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face.” but you omitted, whether intentionally or not, other details which prove that this is speaking of a time that has not yet come, for it goes on by saying, “36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD. 37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.” (Ezekiel 20:36-38)

There clearly has never been a time when the Lord brought back the people “from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which” they were scattered, and judged them face to face, purging out the rebels from among them, so that they were brought “out of the country where they” dwelt, But were not allowed to “enter the land of Israel.”

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

This is the only one of the examples you have given that even seems to justify your allegation. For it indeed speaks of a judgment that came in ancient times.

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Here, you have, whether intentionally or not, omitted the part of this prophecy that clearly shows that it cannot even possibly refer to the Maccabean Period. The two verses immediately preceding the part you quoted are:

11 "As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. 12 Return to the stronghold, You prisoners of hope. Even today I declare That I will restore double to you. (Zechariah 9:11-12)

Here, just after describing the coming of our Lord in verses 9-10, its ays that what follows is “Because of the blood of your covenant.” And then, it says “Even today I declare That I will restore double to you.” There is absolutely no way to rationally even pretend that double was restored to the Jews of the Maccabean Period. So this prophecy must, of necessity, refer to some other time that is still future.

 

[Biblewriter]

God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

Here, you are simply ASSUMING that this is speaking of events that took place approximately 24 years BEFORE the date most scholars believe the Revelation was given. The ONLY evidence that this is speaking of the events of ADA 70 is that your doctrine requires that conclusion.

 

[Biblewriter]

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

While all those comings took place in a timeframe near and at hand to those people, as prophesied, the final judgment of God in history--perhaps many thousands of years into the future--will have a similar pattern, though the specific details are unknown to men. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

Actually, most of these prophecies, as I have demonstrated, spoke of times that are still in the future, near the time when the Lord will come in power and glory to punish the wicked. And many of the specific details of that coming have been revealed in the scriptures, in explicit statements mae in plain language. But Preterism rejects the conpt of accepting these many prophecies at face value.

 

[eschaton]

-why john the baptist?
-he bore witness to the Lamb of God
-who else said Lamb of God?
-most chapters in revelation do not mention Jesus
-the time was near
-to prepare the way
-Jesus was added later by another john
-along with the churches and other stuff
-so there were at least two versions of the apocalypse
-copies of the first one were referred to as ancient by eusebius
-victorinus did his commentary on the first version

Hi,
I'm getting a little late on the discussion, but I would like to point out that Victorinus said that the apostle John wrote the Apocalypse.

"Therefore, doubtless, there are appointed also twelve angels of the day and twelve angels of the night, in accordance, to wit, with the number of hours. For these are the twenty-four witnesses of the days and nights (Rev 4:4) which sit before the throne of God, having golden crowns on their heads, whom the Apocalypse of John the apostle and evangelist calls elders, for the reason that they are older both than the other angels and than men. " On Creation, Victorinus

Victorinus refers to the seven churches Paul wrote to as well as the seven churches of Asia.

"Finally, as in Asia, so in the whole world: seven churches as all. Paul taught that the seven named are the one Catholic Church. Indeed, at first, so he might keep this (rule), he did not exceed the number of seven churches, but wrote to the Romans, to the Corinthians, to the Ephesians, to the Thessalonians, to the Galatians, to the Philippians, and to the Colossians."