Venerate

[SeraphimSarov]

ROFL........you gotta be kidding me..........What anti catholic bigot did you learn that from?

As suggested... Jack Chick.

 

[livingword26]

I have no idea why you hate apostolic Christianity so much, because so far you have made horrible misrepresentations about it.

I do not hate apostolic Christians, I hate half truths and doctrines that would lead people astray.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

That was a very informative and helpful post. Thank you.

You're very welcome..........I don't know what you've read, but you've picked up some bad habits in trying to understand anything form the Apostolic Faith that has been passed on for 2000 years...........billions of Chrisitans aren't as ignorant as you would like to think.

 

[livingword26]

As suggested... Jack Chick.

I have no idea who Jack Chick is. Most of what I know about Catholicism I have heard from Catholics on this forum.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I do not hate apostolic Christians, I hate half truths and doctrines that would lead people astray.

Nearly 2000 years of Christian history says that you are the one spewing forth half-truths and doctrines that lead people astray. Apostolic Christianity does not allow for Christ's very natures to be broken up and picked apart like has been done in this thread!

 

[Epiphanygirl]

I do not hate apostolic Christians, I hate half truths and doctrines that would lead people astray.

We say the same about people who preach heretical doctrines

Were the early martyrs heretics? Do you hold high esteem for those who died for the Christian faith in the early centuries?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I have no idea who Jack Chick is. Most of what I know about Catholicism I have heard from Catholics on this forum.

And you think that an Internet forum is an acceptable place to learn about another faith? Man, if I had to go by what I've seen on this forum to judge the beliefs of many Protestants....

By the way, this is Jack Chick's work... is this what you believe? http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp
If so... ugh.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Do you hold high esteem for those who died for the Christian faith in the early centuries?

Starting with St. Stephen the Martyr himself!

 

[Epiphanygirl]

When I have trouble hearing, I use a few drop of peroxide in my ears, does wonders to help one hear what is actually being said.....instead of ....mumble mumble.....I think thats what I heard...........
Also when in doubt, pick up your bible along with the CCC, and look, read, what Catholics actually believe..........then go to the anglican, Orthodox, Coptic official websites and find out what they say too..........

 

[livingword26]

You are basically denying the Incarnation.

Thats just a lie. I have stated plainly that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

 

[Hentenza]

Just because you disagree with my conclusion does not mean I need further study on Nestorianism. The idea that the two natures are separable is heretical, as it is one of the base claims of Nestorianism. At any rate, say whatever you want at this point. I'm not about to debate established fact.

Yes it does because you continue to misrepresent what I am saying.

You've got to be kidding me... is that what you're asking me? Mary did not make God. Read and understand the Nicene Creed; it specifically addresses your concerns

Have you read the Nicene Creed? Do you know what it says? At any rate, you are yet to answer my question.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Starting with St. Stephen the Martyr himself!

O Lord, grant us the spirit of fortitude, so that guided by the example of St. Sebastian, we may learn to bear witness to the Christian Faith and patiently support the sufferings of life. Through Christ our Lord. Amen



We have many excellent martyrs to look to for great example!!!

 

[livingword26]

When I have trouble hearing, I use a few drop of peroxide in my ears, does wonders to help one hear what is actually being said.....instead of ....mumble mumble.....I think thats what I heard...........

Again, very helpful. thanks.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

deleted

 

[PaladinValer]

Nobody on this thread has denied who Jesus is or what He did. Catholic doctrine is what this is about, nothing else.

More than just "Catholic"

Churches don't cast her aside or ignore her. They cast aside the heresy that the Catholic church has created, that she is an intercessor between God and man.

Ever prayed for someone? Ever asked someone to pray for you? That's intercession.

That she is a co-redemptress or a mediator.

Ever prayed for someone? Ever asked someone to pray for you? That's mediation.

As for co-redeemer, there is no formal doctrine or dogma in the Vatican Catholic Church. In addition, while that language is used, it doesn't mean what you are erronously implying it does.

That she as some omnipresent power to hear all Catholics pray and receive their prayers for God.

That is not what they believe. If you've been told that by your pastor, you've been lied to.

That she is forever a virgin and did not die.

She was a virgin forever. They believed that in the 1st century.

As for not dying, actually, they believe she ascended, but whether she was alive when she did or whether it was immediately upon her death is up to personal belief.

They are the ones who have done her the dishonor by elevating her and diminishing the truth of what her Son came to accomplish, that is to restore the relationship between God and man. Not between Mary and man.

Sorry, but that is not what they teach.

I actually am versed in what Vatican Catholicism teaches and doesn't. I disagree with them, as Epiphanygirl here will tell you, but I disagree based on knowing the facts of what they believe, teach, and practice, not some fantasy. You owe them that much respect at least.

That is why I get along with many the VCs here on CF, particularly Epiphanygirl. We disagree, but we do so respectfully and knowledgefully.

I would hope that you would actually stop and learn first before you continue. As you admitted, you were wrong about St. Mary being the Mother of God. Is it then possible that you could have been wrong then about other things?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Yes it does because you continue to misrepresent what I am saying.

No, I am not. If that's the only response you can conjure up, I wonder if you've got any arguments left to stand on at all...

Have you read the Nicene Creed? Do you know what it says? At any rate, you are yet to answer my question.

Your question has been answered a number of times, a number of ways. I am not going to repeat myself just because you refuse to contribute anything else to this discussion.

And would I be talking about the Nicene Creed if I didn't know it? I know it by heart. I say the Nicene Creed nearly every day. And it seems to me that you have to affirm the Nicene Creed to even be considered a Christian for the purposes of this forum. Why are you insulting me?

 

[livingword26]

And I don't even agree with the phrase "God manifest in the flesh." How many times did He make it obvious Who He was? (Because that's what a manifestation is!) I recall the Transfiguration on the Mount... and the Resurrection... and the Ascension...

1Ti 3:16
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

but if He were so plainly God the rest of the time, why did the Jews kill Him? Just because that's what was supposed to happen?

Joh 10:17-18
(17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
(18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

No, it's because He was fully human while still fully God. He had feelings, He suffered, and He died, just as we do. For Him to be so much like us (indeed, to be one of us!), He had to have a mother! And you're saying she's only His half-mother!

No argument about feelings or suffering, or that He had a mother.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

No argument about feelings or suffering, or that He had a mother.

Then what are you objecting to?

And I don't know what I was thinking objecting to the manifestation in the flesh deal... I almost deleted that post, and apparently I should have. (And did now... my apologies for letting my feelings cloud my thinking! I'm kind of riled up. )

 

[Hentenza]

That's a Straw Man. You don't seem to understand then what Nestorianism is.



No, but it is irrelevent since and this is all a Straw Man argument anyhow.

Nestorianism creates two Persons: Jesus the Man and Jesus the Divine, only one of which was in the womb. St. Mary is more than just the Christokos (or Anthrotokos, if you will) since Jesus is not Jesus the Human and Jesus the God but Jesus the Theanthropos. He is both at the same time, not two people. Therefore, she is both Christokos and Theotokos, since Jesus is not two persons but one.

And while you can claim to say that you believe this, if your words do not support your claim, then it is your words, not your claim, is what matters. Mormons claim to be Christians all the time, yet their words dictate otherwise, just to give a prime example.

His humanity and divinity are distinct, true, but inseperable. You cannot have Jesus with just one nature; He comes as a package deal: two natures, two wills, One Person.

St. Mary is Theotokos, Mother of God, and Queen of Heaven as a result.

The HS concieved Jesus in Mary's womb. Jesus's divinity was a product of the HS and Jesus humanity was a product of Mary. Mary then carried Jesus both divine and human until birth. Mary gave birth to both. However, Mary was JUST a human who could not have given Jesus his divinity. How can a sinful person give divinity to God?
Nestorians said that Mary gave birth to ONLY the human nature of Christ. That is a far cry from what I am saying. It amazes me that just because someone does not agree with you, that you put them in some subgroup or label them something. That is just pathetic.
Get this straight, I do not agree with you and think that your view is unbiblical. Lets see, what subgroup do I put that in?

 

[livingword26]

Ever prayed for someone? Ever asked someone to pray for you? That's mediation.

1Ti 2:5
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

As for co-redeemer, there is no formal doctrine or dogma in the Vatican Catholic Church. In addition, while that language is used, it doesn't mean what you are erronously implying it does.

I have many times on this thread something doesn't mean what I believe it does, but with no explanation of what it means. Care to enlighten me on what a Co-redeemer is?