Veggies may not be that good for you

[Lost4words]

I never ever want to see any veg in my bowl! NEVER!

 

[public hermit]

I never ever want to see any veg in my bowl! NEVER!

Are you sure? They look pretty tasty!

 

[Lost4words]

Are you sure? They look pretty tasty!

I cry FAKE! FAKE!!!!

 

[trophy33]

I am sure we could swap sources all day. I got a legit medical doctor also.

The slide presentation was not meant as "another MD says it", but is more about the content - its a thorough examination of the topic.

 

[timewerx]

If you find some edible plants, you must still do quite a lot of alchemy and magic to stay healthy on a purely plant based diet. Even the most skilled plant eaters frequently add at least dairy or else their health will deteriorate with time.

It simply does not have the proper nutrition and is rather an emergency source of food for humans.

My great grandma that lived to 95 yo was the ONLY life long vegan relative we ever had. The rest of our relatives did not live beyond the age of 80 as CVD, diabetes, and cancer runs in the family.

She did not choose the lifestyle but rather force into it by extreme poverty. They lived near the mountains at the time, forest area before ranchers moved in. In time, life got a bit better for her but still did not eat meat due to acquired taste with bitter vegetables.

My point is, vegetables and wild plants won't kill you, it's probably the reason why my great grandma lived far longer than the rest of the family tree being the only life-long vegan relative we had.

Although in your defense. My great grandma ate either wild plants or grew their own vegetables so they don't have to deal with pesticides and only ate 100% genuinely home-grown organic veggies.

As for your concerns about the native toxins in plants. Didn't the Bible also said, that believers will have improved bodily defense against all kinds of toxins? The gut bacteria you get from eating plants that helps metabolize plant food, may also be metabolizing these toxins as well which helps defend against toxins.

Anyway, I'm not vegan myself. I "rotate" diet based on economics of food also because of poverty. I eat whatever is cheaper at the moment. If meat is cheap then I'll eat mostly meat. If veggies get cheaper then I'll eat mostly veggies.

 

[timewerx]

I do not know how many poisons in plants are neutralized by boiling, but the ideal nutrition is still something more than just "now the plant will not kill me or harm my body much".

Which is the point of the OP video - the ideal nutrition for humans, not just "how to survive the wrong food".

I used to eat a certain wild plant raw. I did not even boil, I just picked the leaves and ate. I don't know what species, all I know is that it tastes good that's why I ate it. It tasted a bit like wine-cooked ham which is weird and perhaps why I kept on eating it. It had medium sized dark green leaves with small light green spots.

It had strong oxalate toxin. The first time I ate this plant, my throat is burning and itching and it tasted incredibly bitter. My skin also itched when it contacted juices from this plant. I also developed mild fever.

But I kept on eating it and in just one week, my body fully adapted to eating this plant. All the symptoms went away including skin itchiness. It doesn't taste as bitter, in fact, most of the bitter taste went away and the plant started tasting more like ham and wine!

I've been eating it for one whole year and then I just started to dislike the taste for eating the same plant over and over then I stopped.

I suppose our good defense vs plant toxins was inherited from my great grandma and my own mother who did sometimes ate the plants she collected raw.

I suppose genetics is a factor as well and whether your ancestors were more vegans or carnivores. None of us developed any liver nor kidney problems from eating raw plants so I can only assume our bodies were able to metabolize these plants and their toxins.

 

[FireDragon76]

I used to eat a certain wild plant raw. I did not even boil, I just picked the leaves and ate. I don't know what species, all I know is that it tastes good that's why I ate it. It tasted a bit like wine-cooked ham which is weird and perhaps why I kept on eating it. It had medium sized dark green leaves with small light green spots.

It had strong oxalate toxin. The first time I ate this plant, my throat is burning and itching and it tasted incredibly bitter. My skin also itched when it contacted juices from this plant. I also developed mild fever.

But I kept on eating it and in just one week, my body fully adapted to eating this plant. All the symptoms went away including skin itchiness. It doesn't taste as bitter, in fact, most of the bitter taste went away and the plant started tasting more like ham and wine!

I've been eating it for one whole year and then I just started to dislike the taste for eating the same plant over and over then I stopped.

I suppose our good defense vs plant toxins was inherited from my great grandma and my own mother who did sometimes ate the plants she collected raw.

I suppose genetics is a factor as well and whether your ancestors were more vegans or carnivores. None of us developed any liver nor kidney problems from eating raw plants so I can only assume our bodies were able to metabolize these plants and their toxins.

Oxalates are found in some plants because it's an adaptation to calcium-rich soils, in other cases to act as a toxin to ward off predators grazing on them (like Elephant Ears).

Tolerance to oxalates can vary a great deal. There are actually bacteria in the human gut, like oxalobacter, that can consume oxalates. Not everybody has healthy amounts of them, however.

Certain plants are so high in oxalates they are absolutely toxic and should never be eaten, like elephant ear plants. Other plant foods, such as spinach or almond nuts, are high and should be eaten in only small amounts. Other foods, such as kale or mustard greens, are lower in oxalates, and can be eaten in large quantities by people with healthy gut microbiomes. However, they should generally be cooked because the nutrients aren't as bioavailable uncooked.

 

[trophy33]

Other foods, such as kale or mustard greens, are lower in oxalates, and can be eaten in large quantities

100g of kale contains 20mg of oxalates.

Oxalates are not the only toxins in/on plants, though:

"Strawberries and spinach continue to top the annual list of the “Dirty Dozen” fruits and veggies that contain the highest levels of pesticides, followed by three greens – kale, collard and mustard – nectarines, apples, grapes, and bell and hot peppers"

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/07/health/dirty-dozen-produce-2022-wellness/index.html

Or:
In a recent study, molecular biologist Ernie Hubbard found that kale—along with cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and collard greens—is a hyper-accumulator of heavy metals like thallium and cesium. What's more, traces of nickel, lead, cadmium, aluminum, and arsenic are also common in greens, and this contamination affected both organic and standard produce samples.

The source? Its soil. "If it's left in the ground, the leafy greens are going to take it up," Hubbard told Craftmanship magazine.

If eaten in large quantities, it will produce various "mysterious" problems in your body, hard to diagnose by a doctor, but originating in food poisoning.

 

[FireDragon76]

100g of kale contains 20mg of oxalates.

That's actually low. A serving of spinach can have around 800 mg. Two dozen almonds has around 122mg. Those levels are still safe to eat, for most people, if foods like almonds or spinach are eaten in moderation, and there's no underlying issues like kidney disease.

Oxalates are not the only toxins in/on plants, though:

"Strawberries and spinach continue to top the annual list of the “Dirty Dozen” fruits and veggies that contain the highest levels of pesticides, followed by three greens – kale, collard and mustard – nectarines, apples, grapes, and bell and hot peppers"

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/07/health/dirty-dozen-produce-2022-wellness/index.html

Or:
In a recent study, molecular biologist Ernie Hubbard found that kale—along with cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and collard greens—is a hyper-accumulator of heavy metals like thallium and cesium. What's more, traces of nickel, lead, cadmium, aluminum, and arsenic are also common in greens, and this contamination affected both organic and standard produce samples.

The source? Its soil. "If it's left in the ground, the leafy greens are going to take it up," Hubbard told Craftmanship magazine.

If eaten in large quantities, it will produce various "mysterious" problems in your body, hard to diagnose by a doctor, but originating in food poisoning.

The Environmental Working Group isn't the best source for health information. They tend to be alarmist in their conclusions, and these types of news stories don't usually lend themselves to a balanced perspective.

All organisms contain some level of heavy metal contamination. It's unavoidable. Animal bones, typically used in making broth, can have very high levels of heavy metals as well. In terms of physical health, we know that populations that eat green, leafy vegetables typically are healthier than those that don't, in terms of bone health. Cruciferous vegetables like kale, broccoli, or collards are excellent sources of vitamin K.

 

[RDKirk]

I read many years ago that plants have chemical defenses to make them more toxic to eat so that animal and people won't eat them. However, herbivorous animals are adapted to counteract these defenses and for us, cooking (usually boiling) plant parts will eliminate most of plant toxins.

It's not by accident that every successful people group discovered cooking. I've taught jungle survival, and finding edible vegetables in the natural wild is hard. And also tricky.

 

[RDKirk]

If you find some edible plants, you must still do quite a lot of alchemy and magic to stay healthy on a purely plant based diet. Even the most skilled plant eaters frequently add at least dairy or else their health will deteriorate with time.

It simply does not have the proper nutrition and is rather an emergency source of food for humans.

There were no native people groups that were vegan. No local region can or ever did support year-round veganism, generation after generation. Every people group added some animal protein into their diet, even the Jains. The choice to be vegan depends upon modern food production, storage, and transportation technology.

 

[trophy33]

That's actually low. A serving of spinach can have around 800 mg. Two dozen almonds has around 122mg. Those levels are still safe to eat, for most people, if foods like almonds or spinach are eaten in moderation, and there's no underlying issues like kidney disease.

20mg is relatively low compared to supertoxic foods like spinach, yes. But nobody eats just 100g of kale a day, other plants are being added. The amount of oxalates accumulates.

The safe level of oxalates to eat daily for most people is under 100mg. Ideal amount is 0mg. What is above 100mg, may easily accumulate in various tissues of our body and cause serious problems after years or decades of such accumulation.

Cruciferous vegetables like kale, broccoli, or collards are excellent sources of vitamin K.

Vitamin K in plants is K1. This one is not bioavailable for humans. Humans need K2. This one is found only in animal sources.

 

[FireDragon76]

20mg is relatively low compared to supertoxic foods like spinach, yes. But nobody eats just 100g of kale a day, other plants are being added. The amount of oxalates accumulates.

The safe level of oxalates to eat daily for most people is 100mg. What is above that, may easily accumulate in various tissues of our body and cause serious problems after years or decades of such accumulation.


Vitamin K in plants is K1. This one is not bioavailable for humans. Humans need K2. This one is found only in animal sources.

I don't know where you are getting that information, but K1 is biovailable. It's merely somewhat less biovalaible.

Alot of supplement-related interests have been pushing K2, perhaps to sell more supplements and make money (K2 is expensive). K1 has a shorter half-life in the body and its somewhat less biovalaible than K2, but in terms of real world diets, there's no evidence that diets rich in K1 lead to poorer bone health vs. supplementing with K2.

 

[trophy33]

I don't know where you are getting that information, but K1 is biovailable. It's merely somewhat less biovalaible.

Phylloquinone, also known as vitamin K1, is synthesized by plants. However, phylloquinone in plant foods is tightly bound to chloroplasts, so it is less bioavailable. Boiling the plants does not help.

Studies estimate that less than 10% of the K1 found in plants is actually absorbed by the body.

Vitamin K1 vs K2: What’s the Difference?

Vitamin K has two main forms: vitamin K1 and vitamin K2. This article examines the differences between the two, as well as their sources and benefits.

www.healthline.com

Effect of food composition on vitamin K absorption in human volunteers - PubMed

The human vitamin K requirement is not known precisely, but the minimal requirement is often assumed to be between 0.5 and 1 x 10(-6) g/kg body weight. In the present study we addressed the question to what extent circulating vitamin K concentrations are influenced by the form in which the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But in terms of real world diets, there's no evidence that diets rich in K1 lead to poorer bone health vs. supplementing with K2.

If you are talking about infamous epidemiological studies, those do not have a power to demonstrate causality and to isolate one specific vitamin as doing or not doing something. Randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blinded trials are needed for that.

 

[timewerx]

It's not by accident that every successful people group discovered cooking. I've taught jungle survival, and finding edible vegetables in the natural wild is hard. And also tricky.

I have read the FM 21-76 (Military field manual for wilderness survival) cover-to-cover couple of times and I still haven't memorized the plants to eat and not!

It's probably easier to memorize the edible plants because they're fewer....But you also need to memorize the toxic plants because many of the edible plants mimic the appearance of toxic plants (mimicry) and you need to learn to differentiate the two look alikes!

It's probably "easier" to just make Tarantula smoothies if you're for something to eat in the jungle

 

[timewerx]

Oxalates are found in some plants because it's an adaptation to calcium-rich soils, in other cases to act as a toxin to ward off predators grazing on them (like Elephant Ears).

Tolerance to oxalates can vary a great deal. There are actually bacteria in the human gut, like oxalobacter, that can consume oxalates. Not everybody has healthy amounts of them, however.

Certain plants are so high in oxalates they are absolutely toxic and should never be eaten, like elephant ear plants. Other plant foods, such as spinach or almond nuts, are high and should be eaten in only small amounts. Other foods, such as kale or mustard greens, are lower in oxalates, and can be eaten in large quantities by people with healthy gut microbiomes. However, they should generally be cooked because the nutrients aren't as bioavailable uncooked.

I suspect the gut bacteria.

I never took meds at the time. Even if sustaining injuries with deep wounds and getting contaminated, I never went to the hospital, never took antibiotics.

I read that antibiotics can wipe out gut colony and they'll have to start over after medication. Doctors are aware of this dilemma with using antibiotics. If you're out of gut bacteria, it compromises immunity as well, somewhat, negating the effect of antibiotics and even making the problem worse.

 

[keith99]

So we have a video from a guy who went from plants are magic to meat is magic!

I would not trust him at either point.

 

[trophy33]

Not sure what study proved that gut bacteria (specifically oxalobacters) can safe people from the harmful effects of higher amount of dietary oxalates.

This one found them ineffective:

Efficacy and safety of Oxalobacter formigenes to reduce urinary oxalate in primary hyperoxaluria - PubMed

Oxabact was safe and well tolerated. However, as no significant change in Uox was seen, further studies to evaluate the efficacy of Oxabact treatment are needed.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

 

[timewerx]

So we have a video from a guy who went from plants are magic to meat is magic!

I would not trust him at either point.

I've read research from both camps and it seems there's lots of misinformation / biased information flying around.

You can't trust anyone, anymore.

So I'll just remain omnivorous and eat whatever I can afford (except for steamed tarantulas).....Win/win!

 

[FireDragon76]

Not sure what study proved that gut bacteria (specifically oxalobacters) can safe people from the harmful effects of higher amount of dietary oxalates.

This one found them ineffective:

Efficacy and safety of Oxalobacter formigenes to reduce urinary oxalate in primary hyperoxaluria - PubMed

Oxabact was safe and well tolerated. However, as no significant change in Uox was seen, further studies to evaluate the efficacy of Oxabact treatment are needed.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

The population studied had primary hyperoxaluria, which is a rare genetic condition. The human body itself makes oxalate, but people with the genetic condition make too much, leading to frequent kidney stones.

Also, a pill can at most contain only a quarter gram or so of bacteria, but the human microbiome is far more massive. It's the equivalent of scattering a few grains of wheat in a forest and expecting a wheat field to spring up, it's unlikely to happen. Gut microbiomes change slowly, and typically track a person's diet over time. Few probiotics can successfully colonize the gut, most make superficial changes that last only as long as the probiotic is taken.