Vegan

[Soyeong]

I don't kill anything for your information. You just are brainwashed from the meat industry. My food is natural, that's why you can't say anything. You didn't even watch Cowspiracy, no wonder you're not educated.

"Growing more crops would increase in the use of fertilisers, herbicides, pesticides and other threats to biodiversity and environmental health. In some cases rangelands have been substantially altered to increase the percentage of stock-friendly plants. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year. You might not think the billions of insects and spiders killed by grain production are sentient, though they perceive and respond to the world around them. Replacing red meat with grain products leads to many more sentient animal deaths, far greater animal suffering and significantly more environmental degradation. "

I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

 

[Brookelowe454]

Did you watch it yet??

 

[Ilovegod888]

"Growing more crops would increase in the use of fertilisers, herbicides, pesticides and other threats to biodiversity and environmental health. In some cases rangelands have been substantially altered to increase the percentage of stock-friendly plants. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year. You might not think the billions of insects and spiders killed by grain production are sentient, though they perceive and respond to the world around them. Replacing red meat with grain products leads to many more sentient animal deaths, far greater animal suffering and significantly more environmental degradation. "

I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

Actually, I eat organic food and also I can't help the killing of animals, you can. It's obvious that you didn't watch the video, maybe you're scared to know the truth. I don't eat corpses, I eat healthy food. So why don't you be vegan, you don't loose much. But you have everything to gain.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Survival is also something they prefer, but not everyone prefers survival. Atheists can certainly act in ways that promote survival, but on their worldview, they don't have any grounds to say that we ought to prefer survival. How would you convince a suicide bomber that they ought to prefer survival? Slavery in the Bible was different than it's surrounding culture.

I disagree with both, and I'd happily debate in an appropriate thread. If you start a thread an out atheists having no basis for morality, or one claiming that Biblical slavery (sad that there's even such a thing) was different than slavery in the region and time, or slavery as practiced by Christians up until fairly modern times, I'll gladly participate. This is supposed to he a community forum and a thread for vegans should probably focus on sharing within and learning about the vegan community.
Right now I'm making mushroom risotto. ..favorite comfort food on cold nights!

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Most of the red meat available is fed on grain products, so no, it won't reduce grain consumption. I believe more grain goes to feeding animals not people directly. Yes, there is grass fed beef, but not in enough quantities to feed the world's demand. CAFOs are required to meet the demand for cheap meat, and it's an efficiency and environmental disaster.

"Growing more crops would increase in the use of fertilisers, herbicides, pesticides and other threats to biodiversity and environmental health. In some cases rangelands have been substantially altered to increase the percentage of stock-friendly plants. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year. You might not think the billions of insects and spiders killed by grain production are sentient, though they perceive and respond to the world around them. Replacing red meat with grain products leads to many more sentient animal deaths, far greater animal suffering and significantly more environmental degradation. "

I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

 

[nebulaJP]

Studies in Great Britain have shown soy to be high in plant estrogen which alters hormonal development of youth, emasculates men by shrinking their testicles and making them docile, and contributes to the rampant breast cancer abounding around the world.

This link is to Pub Med.gov which is a medical site for research.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21624456

The study says that phytoestrogens can affect the development of fetal mice testis so the same may be true for humans. If that is correct, then pregnant women should avoid soy. Bold mine:

"These results suggest that fetal exposure to phytoestrogens can affect the development and function of the male reproductive system."

It doesn't say any of the things you said: 1. alters hormonal development of youth, 2. shrinks men's testicles 3. breast cancer.

 

[nebulaJP]

The second line of that study is...

"Indeed, it is well known that genistein, an isoflavone found in soybeans and soy products, mimics the actions of estrogens and that the fetal testis is responsive to estrogens."

OK, the fetal testis is responsive to estrogens. So, why do pregnant women drink cow's milk? It has tons of estrogens:

"Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones," Ganmaa told her audience. Dairy, she added, accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.

 

[Brookelowe454]

The second line of that study is...

"Indeed, it is well known that genistein, an isoflavone found in soybeans and soy products, mimics the actions of estrogens and that the fetal testis is responsive to estrogens."

OK, the fetal testis is responsive to estrogens. So, why do pregnant women drink cow's milk? It has tons of estrogens:

"Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones," Ganmaa told her audience. Dairy, she added, accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.

Great source. Soy is not something people should be worried about.

 

[Rajni]

Plants are also living beings, but you don't consistently argue that we shouldn't eat plants.

Reminds me of an old article: Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

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[Brookelowe454]

Reminds me of an old article: Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

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Plants are not sentient beings, animals are. They lack a central nervous system, unlike animals, which, if you haven't noticed.... you are an animal. Are meat eaters seriously still doing that "plants have feelings too" garbage? This is a vegan community hangout forum, so feel free to leave, and eat a steak (I mean corpse) instead.

 

[Soyeong]

Reminds me of an old article: Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

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The argument against eating animals was that they were living beings created by God, which is a category that plants also qualify for. If you want to say that it's ok to kill living beings as long as they aren't sentient, then worry about all the critters that are killed when a field is plowed and harvested.

 

[Soyeong]

I disagree with both, and I'd happily debate in an appropriate thread. If you start a thread an out atheists having no basis for morality, or one claiming that Biblical slavery (sad that there's even such a thing) was different than slavery in the region and time, or slavery as practiced by Christians up until fairly modern times, I'll gladly participate. This is supposed to he a community forum and a thread for vegans should probably focus on sharing within and learning about the vegan community.
Right now I'm making mushroom risotto. ..favorite comfort food on cold nights!

Again, atheists can act morally, but not consistently with their worldview. They need to be able to go from a preference to an ought, which they can't do without appealing to standard outside of themselves. There really is no contest between how slaves were treated in surrounding nations and how the Torah commands. If you want to read up about it, here's a good article:

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

 

[Brookelowe454]

The argument against eating animals was that they were living beings created by God, which is a category that plants also qualify for. If you want to say that it's ok to kill living beings as long as they aren't sentient, then worry about all the critters that are killed when a field is plowed and harvested.

Plants were created for us to eat, because according to your belief, God created us to be vegan. (That is, if you believe in the Bible, which you do, so...) Also, do not try to defend eating a dead animal. WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE???? You're not vegan, and this community forum is for vegans. Also, you probably step on 100 insects a day without realizing it, so don't say, "Oh my gosh you kill animals by plowing fields!" You just killed an insect by breathing, you killed bacteria from brushing your teeth. So, if you want to get that specific, go ahead. Just know that I am not eating beings that are even SIMILAR to me, while you eat animals that are as smart as your dog.

 

[Soyeong]

Plants were created for us to eat, because according to your belief, God created us to be vegan. (That is, if you believe in the Bible, which you do, so...) Also, do not try to defend eating a dead animal. WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE???? You're not vegan, and this community forum is for vegans. Also, you probably step on 100 insects a day without realizing it, so don't say, "Oh my gosh you kill animals by plowing fields!" You just killed an insect by breathing, you killed bacteria from brushing your teeth. So, if you want to get that specific, go ahead. Just know that I am not eating beings that are even SIMILAR to me, while you eat animals that are as smart as your dog.

Yes, according to my beliefs, God command a vegan diet and then latter commanded a kosher diet, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't share my beliefs. You have not made any scientific argument or any argument at all from your beliefs that eating meat is wrong, even though you've made it abundantly clear that I have no facts and all the facts are somehow on your side. You just seem to arbitrarily decide that eating a living being is wrong, or that eating a sentient being is wrong, or eating a being with a central nervous system is somehow wrong, but not you've turned around and made it clear that you don't care if more sentient beings are killed in the production of your food. Who cares about killing sentient animals when plowing a field, right? You've also made it clear that intelligence doesn't make a difference in determining whether an animal is acceptable to eat, yet you still bring up the intelligence of a dog. Consistency is not your strong point.

 

[Brookelowe454]

Yes, according to my beliefs, God command a vegan diet and then latter commanded a kosher diet, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't share my beliefs. You have not made any scientific argument or any argument at all from your beliefs that eating meat is wrong, even though you've made it abundantly clear that I have no facts and all the facts are somehow on your side. You just seem to arbitrarily decide that eating a living being is wrong, or that eating a sentient being is wrong, or eating a being with a central nervous system is somehow wrong, but not you've turned around and made it clear that you don't care if more sentient beings are killed in the production of your food. Who cares about killing sentient animals when plowing a field, right? You've also made it clear that intelligence doesn't make a difference in determining whether an animal is acceptable to eat, yet you still bring up the intelligence of a dog. Consistency is not your strong point.

Consistency is not your strong point either. You pick apart every detail of my response while refusing to look at the big picture. Don't call me a hypocrite when you are one also. I said those things because I thought you would agree. Now I realize that you have no sense of morality what so ever so don't come here on a VEGAN forum. I have already stated the definition of vegan and it is clear that you are not one of them. Thus, your entire argument is invalid. I hope you learned something from this discussion.

 

[Soyeong]

Consistency is not your strong point either. You pick apart every detail of my response while refusing to look at the big picture. Don't call me a hypocrite when you are one also. I said those things because I thought you would agree. Now I realize that you have no sense of morality what so ever so don't come here on a VEGAN forum. I have already stated the definition of vegan and it is clear that you are not one of them. Thus, your entire argument is invalid. I hope you learned something from this discussion.

If you say it is wrong to kill sentient life, but you pay people to kill sentient life, then that is hypocrisy. How am I insincerely doing something that I've said is wrong? In the Bible, God gave meat as food and actually gave commands for it to be eaten, so it is not inconsistent with my beliefs to eat meat. You have also refused to offer any argument from your beliefs that it is wrong, in spite of claiming all the facts on your side, so you have given no grounds to say that I have no sense of morality. How do you know that we ought to not to eat animals?

This is a Community Hangout forum, not a VEGAN forum. It is a logical fallacy that because I'm not strictly a vegan that therefore arguments I make are invalid. Even if I were still a strict vegan, our diets would still be causing many innocent sentient animals to die horrible deaths. If you had a consistent sense of morality, then you wouldn't eat a vegan diet either.

 

[Brookelowe454]

If you say it is wrong to kill sentient life, but you pay people to kill sentient life, then that is hypocrisy. How am I insincerely doing something that I've said is wrong? In the Bible, God gave meat as food and actually gave commands for it to be eaten, so it is not inconsistent with my beliefs to eat meat. You have also refused to offer any argument from your beliefs that it is wrong, in spite of claiming all the facts on your side, so you have given no grounds to say that I have no sense of morality. How do you know that we ought to not to eat animals?

This is a Community Hangout forum, not a VEGAN forum. It is a logical fallacy that because I'm not strictly a vegan that therefore arguments I make are invalid. Even if I were still a strict vegan, our diets would still be causing many innocent sentient animals to die horrible deaths. If you had a consistent sense of morality, then you wouldn't eat a vegan diet either.

For the last TIME, plants are not sentient beings. The flesh of an animal that YOU consume is a sentient being. OH my gosh, stop using the bible, for the last time, it is not proof, nor do I believe that it's real. I didn't mean to say that it was "wrong" I meant for you to look at the facts. If you don't believe it's wrong, than that's your problem. You keep twisting my words around to help your argument. It is obvious that you don't understand what veganism is, yet ilovegod888 has shown you much evidence, so don't act like two wrongs make a right, in your case. Like I said, for the 5th time, you can stop typing now, because nobody here agrees with you, and this is a VEGAN forum. Your argument makes no sense, and you are picking apart everything I say to distract from the truth. My lifestyle saves lives. Yours doesn't. End of story. You can believe what you want, but your "facts" don't count as they are from the bible. I do not wish to argue anymore. Is that okay? Can you leave us alone now?

 

[Ilovegod888]

If you say it is wrong to kill sentient life, but you pay people to kill sentient life, then that is hypocrisy. How am I insincerely doing something that I've said is wrong? In the Bible, God gave meat as food and actually gave commands for it to be eaten, so it is not inconsistent with my beliefs to eat meat. You have also refused to offer any argument from your beliefs that it is wrong, in spite of claiming all the facts on your side, so you have given no grounds to say that I have no sense of morality. How do you know that we ought to not to eat animals?

This is a Community Hangout forum, not a VEGAN forum. It is a logical fallacy that because I'm not strictly a vegan that therefore arguments I make are invalid. Even if I were still a strict vegan, our diets would still be causing many innocent sentient animals to die horrible deaths. If you had a consistent sense of morality, then you wouldn't eat a vegan diet either.

This is a VEGAN thread as stated in the title. You keep using your kosher animals as an excuse, face it, you have NO sense of morality when you only think of yourself. Plants want to be eaten, animals don't. Keep paying people to slaughter INNOCENT animals. Why don't you bring your religion in an argument somewhere where people agree. You eat animals who are caked in manure and you act all high and mighty, have fun with your bones. It's time to wash your hands, Soyeong, they are bloody.

 

[Soyeong]

For the last TIME, plants are not sentient beings. The flesh of an animal that YOU consume is a sentient being. OH my gosh, stop using the bible, for the last time, it is not proof, nor do I believe that it's real. I didn't mean to say that it was "wrong" I meant for you to look at the facts. If you don't believe it's wrong, than that's your problem. You keep twisting my words around to help your argument. It is obvious that you don't understand what veganism is, yet ilovegod888 has shown you much evidence, so don't act like two wrongs make a right, in your case. Like I said, for the 5th time, you can stop typing now, because nobody here agrees with you, and this is a VEGAN forum. Your argument makes no sense, and you are picking apart everything I say to distract from the truth. My lifestyle saves lives. Yours doesn't. End of story. You can believe what you want, but your "facts" don't count as they are from the bible. I do not wish to argue anymore. Is that okay? Can you leave us alone now?

I never said plants were sentient beings, I'm talking about all of the field animals that are killed when a field is plowed and harvested. Those are sentient beings you don't care about because you would rather sate your appetite. This is not based on the Bible, but on the realities of what it takes to farm crops. If you count all of the mice that are killed at grain storage facilities, then your diet kills more sentient life than mine does.

It's ridiculous for you to make an argument from the Bible and then criticize me for using the Bible to show that your argument is wrong. If you also refuse to make an argument from your beliefs for why it is wrong, then I have no reason to think so. I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, but you're the person who has arbitrarily decided it is wrong, but your inconsistent actions show that you don't really believe that it is wrong.

I've already state a few times that I stand corrected about what veganism is, so there is one thing I've learned from this conversation. I've also stated a number of times that this is a Community Hangout forum, not a VEGAN forum.

 

[Ilovegod888]

I never said plants were sentient beings, I'm talking about all of the field animals that are killed when a field is plowed and harvested. Those are sentient beings you don't care about because you would rather sate your appetite. This is not based on the Bible, but on the realities of what it takes to farm crops. If you count all of the mice that are killed at grain storage facilities, then your diet kills more sentient life than mine does.

It's ridiculous for you to make an argument from the Bible and then criticize me for using the Bible to show that your argument is wrong. If you also refuse to make an argument from your beliefs for why it is wrong, then I have no reason to think so. I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, but you're the person who has arbitrarily decided it is wrong, but your inconsistent actions show that you don't really believe that it is wrong.

I've already state a few times that I stand corrected about what veganism is, so there is one thing I've learned from this conversation. I've also stated a number of times that this is a Community Hangout forum, not a VEGAN forum.