Vaccines

[sfs]

As someone has already pointed out, biomedical researchers vaccinate their own kids (or at least I've never run into one who didn't). We also vaccinate ourselves: I was in Africa in January, and before I went I received six vaccinations. There's always a small risk with any vaccine (and some of the vaccines I got were worse than most), but the risk is a heck of a lot smaller than the risk of dying from the diseases.

 

[metherion]

That's another straw man, since the anti-vaccination position does not oppose every vaccine in existence....but if there's one thing we are in opposition to, it's parents being bullied and cajoled by government and their doctors. While the medical community often knows best, they don't always tell you what they know

This statement:

It is a myth that vaccinations are safe.

did not qualify which, if any vaccines ARE safe, and a plain reading would tend to interpret it as a blanket statement about ALL vaccines.

Beyond that, your statement of the alternative health ‘challenge’ does not discriminate against any type of vaccines, just talks about them in general.

Furthermore, giving an example of the Japanese MMR vaccine without any sort of qualifying that that particular formulation is no longer used can also give quite the wrong impression. And the fact that at least one of the diseases involved STILL HAS GOVERNMENT REQUIRED VACCINES even in Japan despite the triple disease vaccine being banned certainly has more than a little relevance to the matter at hand.


Also, does your source say why doctors and nurses fail to get the flu shot? I find that mildly interesting, but on the other hand, (I know some cities have exceptions for municipal workers, but overall nationwide) yearly flu shots are NOT mandated like measles/mumps/rubella/diphtheria/etc. Now, if 50%+ of doctors violated the law and refused to vaccinate their own kids against whooping cough or Hep B, that would be a LOT more interesting.

So... what have I strawmanned?n It is bullying and cajoling to officially ERADICATE smallpox from the planet? Or cut down polio, or whooping cough, or hep B, or MMR? Or tetanus? HPV? What disease is the line? How many times larger does the infection rate among nonvaccinated people have to be?

I tend to be extremely precise.

Precise is my middle name...

Really? I could have sworn your middle name was ‘of’

Metherion

 

[Split Rock]

That's another straw man, since the anti-vaccination position does not oppose every vaccine in existence....but if there's one thing we are in opposition to, it's parents being bullied and cajoled by government and their doctors.

The author of the O.P. strongly holds the position that All vaccines are horrible poisons that will hurt her children. Do you disagree?

Vaccines work best when everyone gets vaccinated. If you do no make it mandatory, not enough people will do it. The government has a responsibility to the entire population, not just a few. It was mandatory vaccination that eliminated small pox as a natural threat to mankind.

 

[marlowe007]

It was mandatory vaccination that eliminated small pox as a natural threat to mankind.

Sure, but for every success there is a disaster; and even if vaccines were as benign as the pharmaceutical industry would like us to believe, they are medication--and not just medication, but prophylaxis. Forced medication is unethical and a total violation of informed consent.

 

[Nostromo]

Is it unethical to stand by as millions of people suffer and die when you can do something about it?

 

[sfs]

Sure, but for every success there is a disaster;

What disasters have there been, on a scale anything remotely comparable to the number of lives saved by vaccines? The last major problem that I know of was with the swine flu vaccine in 1976, which probably caused ~500 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, resulting in several dozen deaths and more cases of neurological damage. That was quite a screw-up (since swine flu itself turned out not to be a threat), but it's vastly smaller than the toll of any of the diseases vaccines target. Tetanus, for example, still kill more than 200,000 unvaccinated people worldwide, and this after a major effort to increase vaccination levels. Vaccination has enormously reduced death and disease throughout the world; those who try to persuade people not to vaccinate are helping to kill people.

 

[bigbadwilf]

Dr Gregory House: (examining a baby whose mother isn't vaccinating him because she feels it's a scam; House takes the child's stuffed frog) All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend on research and development. And the worst that a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

Gribbit

 

[Split Rock]

Sure, but for every success there is a disaster;

That is a gross exaggeration and I think you know it. Sfs mentioned the last serious incident with vaccines, and that was back in 1976. I remember hearing about a similar incident with the Salk vaccine back in the 50's where the Polio virus was not properly killed. How many such incidents can you come up with?

and even if vaccines were as benign as the pharmaceutical industry would like us to believe, they are medication--and not just medication, but prophylaxis. Forced medication is unethical and a total violation of informed consent.

You continue to ignore the simple fact that children who are not vaccinated are a threat to all children. As far as "forced medication" being unethical, what about the increasing number of public smoking bans, and the fact that parents can be charged with child endangerment, or worse, if they do not allow their children to get recommended treatment?

 

[jayem]

The US military requires certain vaccinations, including seasonal flu, MMR, Td, and polio. I believe recuits are also required to get meningococcal vaccine. And others, like typhoid and yellow fever are given in special circumstances. If vaccines make large numbers of people ill, why would the armed forces--who obviously need healthy bodies--give them to their personnel?

 

[marlowe007]

What disasters have there been, on a scale anything remotely comparable to the number of lives saved by vaccines?

Keep in mind that I'm counting the sheer number of deaths and permanent disabilities from vaccines that are completely hushed up. In the US alone for example...the NVICP has paid out well in over a billion dollars in vaccine injury awards, and in an effort to reduce the enormous claims for damages as a result of the MMR vaccine, the US govt has imposed tight restrictions on claims; like the very short time period allowed. So it is reckoned that only about 10% of cases of vaccine injuries are reported.

You continue to ignore the simple fact that children who are not vaccinated are a threat to all children. As far as "forced medication" being unethical, what about the increasing number of public smoking bans, and the fact that parents can be charged with child endangerment, or worse, if they do not allow their children to get recommended treatment?

There is no way to prosecute parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, because it's impossible to objectively assert that a child who contracts a vaccine-available disease wouldn't have contracted it anyway, as no vaccines are even close to completely effective.

Further, vaccines are not a one-size-fits-all solution because they have such a varying effect on each individual child. They are made with ingredients that are common allergens, such as eggs, yeast, and peanut oil. They can cause documentable injury and even death and there is no way to know what effect a vaccine will have on a child until the reaction has already occurred. It is no surprise that many people do not want to take that risk. Forcing parents to administer a drug to their perfectly healthy child as a form of prophylaxis that might not even work is totalitarian and foolish.

 

[sfs]

Keep in mind that I'm counting the sheer number of deaths and permanent disabilities from vaccines that are completely hushed up.

In that case you should also count the number of deaths and disabilities caused by vaccinations administered by aliens and leprechauns. No, you're not allowed to count deaths that you made up out of whole cloth.

In the US alone for example, the NVICP has paid out well in over a billion dollars in vaccine injury awards.

Over what time period, and for how many individual events? Answer: 22 years, 2400 events. That's about 100 incidents per year where there was some kind of reasonable suspicion of an adverse outcome from vaccines, in a country of ~300,000,000 people. As I said, the "disasters" are vastly smaller than the benefits the vaccines provide.

In an effort to reduce the enormous claims for damages as a result of the MMR vaccine, the US govt has imposed tight restrictions on claims; like the very short time period allowed.

More accurately, the government has imposed restrictions in order to reduce the enormous glut of spurious claims about the MMR vaccine, which were the result of wholly unfounded falsehoods spread about MMR and autism.

So it is reckoned that only about 10% of cases of vaccine injuries are reported.

Reckoned by whom, and based on what evidence?

Further, vaccines are not a one-size-fits-all solution because they have such a varying effect on each individual child. They are made with ingredients that are common allergens, such as eggs, yeast, and peanut oil.

What is the rate of actual allergic reactions to vaccinations? And I mean real allergic reactions, the kind that can be seen by clinical exam?

They can cause documentable injury and even death and there is no way to know what effect a vaccine will have on a child until the reaction has already occurred.

This is quite true. There is no way to know who will be injured by vaccination, and it is a real tragedy every time someone is seriously hurt. My barber develop Guilain-Barre syndrome after getting the swine flu vaccine in 1976 and I never saw him again -- he was paralyzed. (I do hope he improved eventually.) It really, truly sucks.

One thing we do know, however, without any doubt at all: the effect of not vaccinating large numbers of children. The effect will be thousands upon thousands of dead children and adults, and much larger numbers of permanent disabilities.

It is no surprise that many people do not want to take that risk.

No, it's not surprising. If you could get everyone else to vaccinate their children, your children would be better off not being vaccinated. (Note: we don't live in that world. Here on this planet, everyone has some risk of exposure to these diseases.) But that's true of everybody else, too. So the only way in practice that we are able to avoid all of those many thousands of dead and injured children is to impose some kind of coercion.

Forcing parents to administer a drug to their perfectly healthy child as a form of prophylaxis that might not even work is totalitarian and foolish.

Totalitarian? No. Every society in history has practiced some forms of coercion for the collective good. If every society is totalitarian, then the word has no meaning. (It's not consistent with libertarianism, to be sure, but real human societies are never consistent with pure libertarianism.) As for foolish -- also no. I don't think preventing all of those deaths is foolish in the least.

 

[DaisyDay]

The government gives AIDS to non-whites under the guise of vaccinations!

You may be joking (I hope you are), but there's a guy arguing just that in the Health and Fitness Forum

http://www.christianforums.com/t7443805-2/#post54211968

 

[metherion]

I’m going to pose a hypothetical, using the numbers that are in the thread earlier.
&#8232;According to Agonances &#8220;precise&#8221; of Susa (note, that&#8217;s an attempt at friendly humor and not mean humor), there were 1,185 polio cases in 2004, 784 in 2003, and according to the source I linked to in my post, <2000 in 2005. Well, absolute max you can get with whole numbers and be less than 2000 is 1999. So, between 2003 and 2005, there were

784+1185+1999= 3968 cases of polio worldwide. Maximum. If there are unreported cases, that only drives it up.

Now, according to sfs&#8217;s source (which I WOULD like to see linked), there have been 2400 events over 22 years for ALL vaccines. ALL of them. Which, as he said, totals to a bit over 100 per year.

Now, it&#8217;s math time. A disease that has been nearly wiped out worldwide STILL KILLS about 11/6 times the number of people over the past three years than have been reported affected by vaccines over the past 22 years. And polio was officially reported wiped off the face of several continents in the past decade, so since 2000 cases would have fallen DRAMATICALLY. (again, for source see my earlier post).

So EVEN IF your unsourced 10% of all cases are reported is true, that means there were only 24000 cases. Which means that in 1988 alone there were almost 15 times more cases of polio (ONE disease vaccinated against) than there have been TOTAL numbers of vaccine incidents in the US. (350/24 = 14.58, so 15 is very close). This does NOT count cases of Hep B, or diphtheria, or whooping cough, or measles, or mumps, or rubella, or... you get my drift. And up until the past few years, there have been more cases of polio in the world per year than the 100 reported cases times ten.

Yes, it IS a disaster every time someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine, especially when it results in lifelong injuries or disability. There is no doubt about that. But on the other hand, what if people were afraid the SMALLPOX vaccine would do them harm? It would still be around, and killing hundreds or thousands of people per year, just like polio still does. And that is only ONE disease. Do your sources say how many people are affected and disables or killed per year by Hep B? Whooping cough? Diphtheria? Between 2005 and the present by polio? Measles, mumps, or rubella? Get back to us on that, please.

Metherion

 

[united4Peace]

I personally believe in vaccinations. I have had our children done and myself.
My husband just had a tetnus shot a couple of yrs ago as he was injured at work (its reccommended that one is updated every 10 yrs).
Tetanus Toxoid - Canadian Immunization Guide - Seventh Edition - 2006 - Public Health Agency of Canada
I have just had my Hep shots updated (where I work I am at high risk) and was given the mantoux shot to make sure I am protected against TB.
Tuberculosis FACT SHEETS - Public Health Agency of Canada
Hepatitis A Vaccine - HealthLink BC File #33

The only shot I put off was the chickenpox shot for the boys as it wasnt covered until they were five. As soon as they turned five they were immunized.
As I had the Chickenpox as a child I am at risk for shingles which if I end up having I could easily pass it along as the chickenpox to someone who has never had it or been immunized. I would hate myself if I gave it to a pregnant person.
Chickenpox

 

[sfs]

Now, according to sfs’s source (which I WOULD like to see linked),

Here.

 

[marlowe007]

Sfs - very good post. I don't purport to be an expert on this topic - and I'm only regurgitating what I vaguely remember reading in books and articles - so I cannae respond to your questions.

But the statement that "the effect will be thousands upon thousands of dead children and adults" sounds rather like scare propaganda to me. Time and time again scare tactics have been proven to be false and ill-founded. A case in point was the polio scare that Split Rock mentioned, when people were queuing up for mass immunisation. The real reality was stated by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Department of Biostatics at the University of North Carolina. He said that polio increased by 50% between 1957 and 1958 and 80% from 1959-1960, after the introduction of mass immunisation. Immunisation increased the cases of polio, not vice-versa. It is well known that many diseases suddenly flair up and then just as suddenly diminish. Fortunately, there are few cases of polio today but this is in no way due to immunisation.

 

[sbvera13]

Please, homeschool your children. I don't want them spreading diseases to mine because you were too opinionated to actually care about their health.

Seriously, it is offensive that you are harming people by spreading that nonsense. The facts show that vaccines work, and you are putting your children, and other people's children at risk because you are too prideful to look at the evidence and admit you were wrong.

 

[marlowe007]

Please, homeschool your children. I don't want them spreading diseases to mine because you were too opinionated to actually care about their health.

Seriously, it is offensive that you are harming people by spreading that nonsense. The facts show that vaccines work, and you are putting your children, and other people's children at risk because you are too prideful to look at the evidence and admit you were wrong.

Thanks for your suggestion, but I guarantee that my children will be disease-free as a result of their cleanliness, better food and safe drinking water.

 

[metherion]

But the statement that "the effect will be thousands upon thousands of dead children and adults" sounds rather like scare propaganda to me.

Normally, it would be. But not in this case. That is what lethal diseases tend to do. Polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, etc are not unconfirmed boogiemen. They are documented diseases that DO kill and disfigure children AND adults for life, if they survive, which noticeable portions don&#8217;t. How many millions people died due to smallpox? How many died from the Black Death? How many died due to polio? Diphtheria? Measles? How many die due to other nasty nasty diseases? No, disease is one of the few things that can LEGITIMATELY claim results of thousands of people if let to run rampant. (yes, I know, I know, afaik there is not a black death vaccine. But my point is that DISEASE kills thousands and millions of people, black death is a good example)

Time and time again scare tactics have been proven to be false and ill-founded.

Yes, in many cases. But then again, that doesn&#8217;t mean there are none with any credibility.

A case in point was the polio scare that Split Rock mentioned, when people were queuing up for mass immunisation.

And the quarantines, and the closing of public pools, etc etc etc. Polio is real, polio ACTIVELY kills and maims.

The real reality was stated by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Department of Biostatics at the University of North Carolina. He said that polio increased by 50% between 1957 and 1958 and 80% from 1959-1960, after the introduction of mass immunisation.

On the other hand, haw far down are the increases from previous 1950s levels?


Now, according to poliomyelitis - Infection, Polio and children, History, Recent eradication efforts, Famous polio survivors, Further reading and a book listed as a source on wiki that I could not physically access and therefore will not cite say that in 1957, there were only 5600 cases of polio. So, in 1958 there would be about 8400, and if it did not decrease from &#8216;58-&#8217;59 in &#8217;60 there would be 15,000 cases, give or take a few hundred. Now, while I cannot find a specific source (nobody seems to want to cite theirs...) the general consensus of polio articles tends to pin numbers of infections pre-1950 at about 20k/year.

(while I was writing this I found this: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-ipv.pdf notice it is a flyer thing from the CDC, who SHOULD be considered fairly knowledgeable about how many polio cases the US had. It pegs it in the 20k/year range by the beginning of the 1950s, when the epidemic started).

So, back to ze math. Even in 1960, assuming the two increases you mentioned and no decreases... you still have ~15k/year compared to 20k/year+. IT IS STILL AN OVERALL DECREASE.

Immunisation increased the cases of polio, not vice-versa. It is well known that many diseases suddenly flair up and then just as suddenly diminish. Fortunately, there are few cases of polio today but this is in no way due to immunisation.

Then what did, and why was in coinciding with where the polio vaccine was going around, and why is it still in places with low/troubled vaccination rates? That&#8217;s an awful lot of serendipity for all the vaccine givers to stumble upon, you know.

Also, if your unvaccinated kids DON"T get them, I'd go thank all the parents of the kids who DID get vaccinated, so the herd immunity protected yours. And hope that not too many think like you, or you might wind up with infected kids. I know that recently the UK has had a mumps outbreak, that also spread to portions of NY and NJ, and there have been small resurgence of measles as recently as last year in the US of A... gotta LOVE it. And strangely, they coincide with several of the anti-vaccination movements. HRM.

(Edit: I do wish to clarify my sentiment. I do hope your kids grow up clean and disease free. But it won't be refusing vaccines that makes them so.)


And sfs, thanks for the source. It can NEVER hurt to be too sure, especially when dealing with a (bizarrely) touchy situation like this one.
&#8232;Metherion

 

[Split Rock]

But the statement that "the effect will be thousands upon thousands of dead children and adults" sounds rather like scare propaganda to me. Time and time again scare tactics have been proven to be false and ill-founded. A case in point was the polio scare that Split Rock mentioned, when people were queuing up for mass immunisation. The real reality was stated by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Department of Biostatics at the University of North Carolina. He said that polio increased by 50% between 1957 and 1958 and 80% from 1959-1960, after the introduction of mass immunisation. Immunisation increased the cases of polio, not vice-versa. It is well known that many diseases suddenly flair up and then just as suddenly diminish.

Explain how dead or attenuated viruses cause polio.

Fortunately, there are few cases of polio today but this is in no way due to immunisation.

What Is It Do To?

Remember this was the 1950s... not the Dark Ages when people were [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing in the water they drank.