Vaccines

[ReverendDG]

It is a myth that vaccinations are safe. Why did Japan ban the MMR jab? Government health chief revealed that a four year experiment with it has had serious financial (claims for damages) and human costs. Most of the claims for damages involve the MMR jab. In Japan a record number of children developed non-viral meningitis and other adverse reactions after MMR.

Alternative health campaigner Jock Doubleday offered a $20,000 challenge to the head of any pharmaceutical company if they would "publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine additive ingredients in the same amount as a six year old child is recommended to receive." To date, no Chief Executive of any pharmaceutical company has taken him up on the chance to claim the cash. Don't poison your child with mercury laced vaccines!

it isn't a bloody mercury laced vaccine! it is a compound, its people like you that cause people to freak out and post this nonsense!

give me proof of your claim. also why in gods name would anyone have the right to publicly challenge someone like that? thats just idiotic, i see why no one would take that loon up on his "offer" why encourage the nuts.

 

[metherion]

Vaccines are not only medically useless but they are actually counterproductive and harmful.

All vaccines do is make viruses worse and more powerful and at the same time weaken your immune system by putting it out of commission.

Then what happened to polio and smallpox, praytell?

It is a myth that vaccinations are safe. Why did Japan ban the MMR jab? Government health chief revealed that a four year experiment with it has had serious financial (claims for damages) and human costs. Most of the claims for damages involve the MMR jab. In Japan a record number of children developed non-viral meningitis and other adverse reactions after MMR.

On the other hand, they apparently still require vaccines for the three diseases, they just give multiple shots for it. They are STILL VACCINATING.

Furthermore, there are studies like this one:
Autism in the absence of MMR vaccine
that would tend to decry a link between autism and the MMR vaccine.

Also, does anyone have any statistics on the cases of measles, mumps, or rubella in Japan per capita compared to other countries that do vaccinate?

And for the record, I would consider the ‘alternative health campaigner’s’ challenge of no merit whatsoever.

Metherion

 

[marlowe007]

Um, I didn't even mention autism, but whatever...

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Then what happened to polio and smallpox, praytell?

They've gotten stronger and more dangerous because of vaccines.

 

[metherion]

Um, I didn't even mention autism, but whatever...

Well, yes, it is true you didn’t, however, when I was looking such things up, I came across

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Why Japan stopped using MMR

and several other sites which state that the fears are generally based on autism (yes, I know it’s a popular news article, but on the other hand, it’s a popular fear, so...).

However, you are correct, nothing is mentioned about increased autism in Japan.

So my bad.

However, the fact remains that 1) Japan still requires vaccines for at least one of the three and 2) now a different strains of mumps is used in MMR in at least the UK (and I would highly suspect the USA) than was used in Japan.

They've gotten stronger and more dangerous because of vaccines.

And your evidence is...? Where are they? Where are the outbreaks in mainstream civilization? Why don’t we see it anymore? What names do they go by now, if they’ve changed? Where is it hiding? Do you have ANY evidence or anything for your claim?

Metherion

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

And your evidence is...?

That thing you allegedly believe in called survival of the fittest.

Where are they?

According to the New World Order Government on 3rd Avenue in New York City, the number of polio cases in 2004 reached 1,185, compared with 784 in 2003.

Smallpox is weaponized and deadlier than ever.

Where are the outbreaks in mainstream civilization?

Nigeria.

Why don’t we see it anymore?

Because I've looked for it an you haven't.

If you click on this we'll both see it on the internet: http://images.google.com/images?hl=...o&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

And let's pray we don't ever see it first hand.

 

[metherion]

That thing you allegedly believe in called survival of the fittest.

So in other words, empty rhetoric. Gotcha.

The number of polio cases in 2004 reached 1,185, compared with 784 in 2003.

Smallpox is weaponized.

The numbers I found aren&#8217;t quite that precise. However, they are: ~350,000 cases 1988 to <2000 in 2005. Quite a drop for something that has only become MORE powerful and MORE infectious as you claim.

And your claim that smallpox has gotten stronger through evolution is that humans have ARTIFICIALLY preserved and weaponized it? (The only weaponized smallpox that was out there used to belong to the Soviets and I thought that was destroyed, but I could be wrong about its destruction). So humanity&#8217;s artificial preservation of it shows that it is naturally becoming more virulent and powerful due to vaccinations, when it has been eradicated? Wonderful logic you have there.

Nigeria.

Correct! There are in fact three others (again, as of this report from 2006): Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. The fact that it still exists in four countries, all in either Asia or Africa (none in either North or South America, nor Europe, nor Australia), and in 2005 had less than 1% and closer to .5% of the cases it had in 1988 CLEARLY shows it has been strengthening, gaining in power, waiting to overtake the entire world?

You&#8217;ve shown no evidence of them being either more dangerous or more powerful due to vaccinations, all evidence shows that it has been severely restricted in scope.
&#8232;The fact that various countries have been declared polio-free due to vaccination even tho the disease still exists also shows your point wrong.

US in &#8217;94, at least 37 Asian countries in 2000-2001, Australia in 2000, Europe in 2002, and of course the official eradication of smallpox in 1979. Yes, vaccination is TRULY dangerous... for the diseases.

We do.

Not smallpox. And with less than 2000 cases per year, polio should follow QUITE soon.

SOURCES: (because dates and numbers need them, so I will provide)
Update on vaccine-derived polioviruses. [MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2006] - PubMed result
http://her.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/16/1/109.pdf
Australia declared polio free. [Commun Dis Intell. 2002] - PubMed result
WHO | Europe achieves historical milestone as Region is declared polio polio-free
WHO | Smallpox

Metherion

EDITED TO ADD:
OH BY THE WAY... Nigeria is in fact attempting to vaccinate the populace, but is having some trouble. News article: http://allafrica.com/stories/201003100738.html

EDIT x2: Prayers for all US and UN servicemen in Afghanistan, that they don't get polio (and that they got their vaccines for it, since it's still endemic there AFAIK).

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

So in other words, empty rhetoric. Gotcha.

So you don't believe in survival of the fittest anymore?

The numbers I found aren’t quite that precise.

I tend to be extremely precise.

Precise is my middle name...

 

[Super_Rational]

Anyway i just wanted to know peoples thoughts on vaccines. My children are not vaccinated and i would never vaccinate them. Vaccines cause all kinds of horrible things like allergies and autism and poisoning! And the fact that the government requires vaccinations is even morre reason to be suspicious of them! This is just one more reason for me to homeschool my children! This is my point of view on vaccines. What do other people hear think?

I have no ties to the government, "big pharma," "big vaccine," yadda yadda but I will certainly have my kids vaccinated. Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey fortunately don't get to make those decisions. Do you truthfully believe that physicians who have their children vaccinated are involved in a conspiracy or cannot see for themselves through their own investigation or research that the vaccines work?

Remember, you're putting your kids at risk, but you're also putting others at risk. And for what reason - anecdotal evidence, retracted & falsified research, celebrity opinions, & conspiracy theories? I can tell you haven't researched this for yourself.

But yes, vaccines are harmful, 9/11 was an inside job, and the moon landing was a hoax. All equally nutty to me.

EDIT: Maybe I should note that while there may be isolated incidents where a vaccine has had adverse effects, or where an appearance of a disorder (autism) may not have a well-defined cause, you have to look at the big picture. Your kids stand a much, much, much greater chance of getting an otherwise preventable illness than having complications from a vaccine.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

thank you for the input! i dont like the ideas of vaccines at all, but i see the benefits of soemthing like tetanus! but the more dangerous vaccines seem to be for things that are easliy treatable or dont even get these days in the united states, it seems like a no brainer not to give these vaccines! thank you for the inforation i will def look into that!

Yeah, polio and small pox were easily treatable. I wonder why we don't see those baddies around any longer?

 

[Psudopod]

Vaccines are not only medically useless but they are actually counterproductive and harmful.

So, how many people died of smallpox this year?

 

[Nostromo]

The government gives AIDS to non-whites under the guise of vaccinations!

 

[Nostromo]

So you don't believe in survival of the fittest anymore?

Yes, more infectious strains of diseases will develop over time, but that happens anyway in the wild. As humans develop natural resistance over generations, microorganisms which subvert this defence will thrive and the arms race between diseases and our immune system will carry on regardless. The question is really whether you want to avert millions of deaths from preventable diseases in the meantime.

 

[Psudopod]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Adeline

thank you for the input! i dont like the ideas of vaccines at all, but i see the benefits of soemthing like tetanus! but the more dangerous vaccines seem to be for things that are easliy treatable or dont even get these days in the united states, it seems like a no brainer not to give these vaccines! thank you for the inforation i will def look into that!​

Hi Sweet_Adeline

I'm sure it must be very scary for you as a mother trying to do her best for her kids when there is what appears to be a lot of conspiracy theories and confliciting information about. But if you want to do what's best for your children, then I urge not to dismiss vacination.

No vaccination is ever completely "safe". There is always a risk of side effects. However, the risk of side effects from the vaccine are minimal compared to the risks from catching the disease. And diseases that have been kept under check by vaccination are rising, so the chances of your kids catching one of them are getting higher by the day. Something like measals may seem mild, and indeed most kids recover fine, but do you want to take the chance that your kid is one of the ones who is blinded or suffers brain damage?

To give you some figures, these are from the NHS (uk health body) - The figures in bold are the numbers affected after having the MMR vaccine, the ones preceding are those affected who have measles.

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Convulsions - One in 200 vs​

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One in 1000

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Meningitis or encephalitis - One in 200 to one in 5000 vs​

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Less than one​

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in a million​

Conditions affecting blood clotting One in 6000 (measles) and One in 3000 (rubella) vs​

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One in 22,300​

SSPE (a delayed complication (children under two) of measles that causes brain damage and death) One in 8000 vs​

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0​

Deaths One in 2500 to​

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one in 5000 (depending on age) vs 0

(Hope the formatting on that makes sense!)

So you can see the risks from the disease are pretty high. The reasons we don't have those levels of death currently is because most children are vaccinated, but as vaccination rates drop, measles cases rise (and this goes for any other disease). You see vaccination works on something call the herd principle. We need as many children vaccinated as possible to minimise and then hopefully illminate the disease. This is one of the reasons governments recomment or enforce vaccination. It's not a power trip, it's not about being in the pocket of Big Pharma, it's about people's health, particularly children. Not everyone can be vaccinated - some children are too sick, some have immune problems. Because vaccination is like catching the disease without getting ill, it would be very dangerous for these people. And sometimes when we vaccinate a person, they don't get the immunity they should have. (This is one of the reasons for giving booster shots, the other being that immunity isn't always permanent.) So we have some people with no resistance, and some people with resistance. The larger the number of resistant people there are, the harder it is for a disease to take hold in a community. So even though some people have no immunity, they are still protected (the vaccinated people act like a barrier).

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[29apples]

Wow..

Would you anti vaccine people feel the same way when they develop a vaccination for cancer?

For everyones info, exposure to a pathogen (antigen) takes 7-10 days to elicit an immune response. After an immune response the body builds a "memory" of the infection. If a second infection occurs, the memory response is much faster, around 1-3 days. This much faster immune response is typically fast enough to clear the infection before it makes you really sick.

Vaccination is just a deliberate, low dose exposure to a pathogen (antigen) to allow your immune system to develop immunological memory. Some diseases can evade the immune system (like flu or cold) by random mutations in their antigens (pathogens) that our immune system is specific for.

 

[Split Rock]

Wow..

Would you anti vaccine people feel the same way when they develop a vaccination for cancer?

Actually, this has already happened. There is a vaccine now for a virus linked to certain forms of cervical cancer : HPV vaccine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is scientifically shown to work but has been contraversial, however, and guess why? All this scare talk about vaccines.

 

[Psudopod]

It is scientifically shown to work but has been contraversial, however, and guess why? All this scare talk about vaccines.

I think that one is more on the "it will make the kiddies have sex!!!!" than actual fear over the health implications. But it's scaremongering nevertheless.

 

[29apples]

Actually, this has already happened. There is a vaccine now for a virus linked to certain forms of cervical cancer : HPV vaccine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is scientifically shown to work but has been contraversial, however, and guess why? All this scare talk about vaccines.

Yes I am aware, but thanks for bringing that up. I was thinking about vaccines for metastatic lesions after the primary malignant tumor was removed. The metastatic lesions are what typically kills cancer patients.

My friends grandmother died a year ago from breast cancer. She had surgery 8 years ago and for all of a sudden a bunch of new tumors had popped up in her lungs and bones. Unfortunately this occurs in 40% of breast cancer patients. It would be really awesome to develop a vaccine for these metastases, so your body could destroy the tumor before it sets in. Fortunately a large amount of money from the govt is funding these studies.

 

[marlowe007]

However, the fact remains that 1) Japan still requires vaccines for at least one of the three and 2) now a different strains of mumps is used in MMR in at least the UK (and I would highly suspect the USA) than was used in Japan.

That's another straw man, since the anti-vaccination position does not oppose every vaccine in existence....but if there's one thing we are in opposition to, it's parents being bullied and cajoled by government and their doctors. While the medical community often knows best, they don't always tell you what they know;

"Although doctors want you to receive an annual flu shot, doctors and nurses are among the least likely to be vaccinated. In fact, 70% of doctors and nurses do not get annual flu shots; 62% of healthcare workers do not get a flu vaccine." Source: Journal of General Internal Medicine (February 6, 2006); Associated Press.

 

[Psudopod]

That's another straw man, since the anti-vaccination position does not oppose every vaccine in existence....but if there's one thing we are in opposition to, it's parents being bullied and cajoled by government and their doctors.

So what do you do when parents refuse vaccination that means preventable diseases start infecting more and more people and putting people's health at risk? Can you image how heart breaking it would be for your child to fight off cancer and then die of something like measles because herd immunity was too low to prevent outbreaks taking place? I don't particularly like the idea of enforced vaccination, because I think it sends a message that can be interetated wrong by some parents, but at the same time goverments and health care workers have a responsibity to all members of society. Vaccination isn't just a personal decision, it ends up affecting populations.