Vaccinations for our children - good or bad?

[khristeeanos]

I have been studying this subject a bit lately and would like some opinions or links to web pages that help me to understand your stance on this important subject.

The pro side states that the benefits outweigh the risks and that our society as a whole is better off having our children vaccinated.

The con side states that vaccines are shown to cause more problems than any good that may come from them. Also, doctors rarely attribute damage to a child on the vaccine and don't report it properly because they receive money for giving vaccines. They state that studies show that vaccines cause autism, other sicknesses and even SIDS.

I have a few books on this subject and here are a few websites I have found.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/

http://www.alternative-doctor.com/vaccination/index.htm

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/index.shtml

http://909shot.com/Default.htm

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

I don't wish this to turn into a flame war. My bride and I have no children yet and I want to be an informed parent.

 

[alaurie]

I don't wish this to turn into a flame war. My bride and I have no children yet and I want to be an informed parent.

Hi khristeeanos!

You're wise to start learning about this. I know a little about this from my mom who is leading a campaign in our state for stronger vaccine waiver laws since my brother's now 4YO little boy developed regressive autism at 17 months following vaccines.

She and I both work in health care and don't want to see vaccines eliminated, but do want to see a safe revision of vaccine schedules and doses. Right now there is no differentiation in most vaccine doses for age or weight (you can check pharmaceutical package inserts online to verify this). Medications are always dosed for age and weight, so this is a big concern for us. Why assume a child can handle an adult dose?? ....and assumption is pretty much it, since this is woefully under studied.

And back to autism. Recent research is showing an autoimmune component which could be the link between autism and vaccinations. If you're shooting up a kid with a genetic autoimmune flaw predisposing it to autism with something like 36 viral hits (appx. ...and ever increasing) before kindergarten, then where's the surprise at the rising rate of autism?

As for SIDs- I'm not as familiar with that one, but I think it's the Hepatitis B given at birth that's of most concern. And why on earth this is given, I don't know??? Just have the mom breast feed the child and it gets her antibodies.

I'm going to send a link to your thread to a couple of friends on the board who know much more about this than I do.

 

[Gizoux]

So far, neither of my children are vaccinated.

That doesn't mean that I'm against it completely, because I don't think that they're all bad, but now that there's a vaccine for chickenpox, I'm just baffled. You get the pox once and then you have a lifetime immunity. You need a booster shot every so often or the consequences of contracting the disease are disastrous. Their excuse? Compilcations! There could be complications!

Nor do I agree with this insane assault on a young child's immune system for their first three months. I would be okay with a tetanus shot with my kids because I have two cats in the house, but I looked at the battery of needles they call a schedule and I think someone had to be insane to think that it's acceptable to inflict not only that many cultures, but also that many chemicals.

 

[amishparadise]

I am for mandatory vaccination. Even if the evidence were conclusive and fully causal regarding the autism link, I'd still support it. As heartbreaking as any human suffering is, I'd rather chance an isolated minority of autism cases than a nation of kids at risk of spending middle school in a sanitarium or an iron lung. There's a very good reason these vaccines were made national policy in the first place, and, quite honestly, I find the actions of the anti-vaccination crowd to be selfish and unethical. If you're concerned about such a small and unproven risk, press for further research and development in medicine and pharmacology, but don't take out your anxieties on the rest of us and our next generation.

 

[alaurie]

...quite honestly, I find the actions of the anti-vaccination crowd to be selfish and unethical.

The OP is correct ...that's flammable to those of us who have a precious child with autism that followed his vaccinations.

If you're concerned about such a small and unproven risk, press for further research and development in medicine and pharmacology, but don't take out your anxieties on the rest of us and our next generation.

We're doing that, but the CDC is standing behind their schedules and doses. I don't know what it's going to take to motivate them to call for more research. Until recently, they've accepted grants (read lots of $$$) from the pharmaceutical industry. I think that's just been reformed so maybe we'll see a change for the better in years to come. For now we're pressing for a better state waiver because we don't want to see our precious 4 year old subjected to more harm when he's making such great strides in recovering from the regressive autism trigger by his vaccines. We hope for full recovery someday and are terrified at the possible consequences of further vaccines for him.

If you could see the blank, zombied look he developed at onset and the anguish at noises and not being able to communicate that plagues him still today, I don't think you'd be quite so harsh in the wording of your judgements.

I hope you never have to experience this personally.

 

[Gizoux]

Mandatory vaccinations? Needles for chickenpox?

What sense is there in vaccinating for chickenpox? That's one of the issues with mandatory vaccinations. You can't decide what the child gets, nor can you stop them if the child reacts badly. I would want to be able to intervene if things take a sudden turn for the worse.

And just a question. How am I unethical and selfish for not giving my children their vaccines? Can I be considered unethical or selfish because I don't get a flu shot?

I may be sounding inflammatory, but I promise I won't jump all over you if you reply.

 

[alaurie]

I just spoke with my much more knowledgeable mom by phone.

She said there are three general camps surrounding the vaccine issue:

• those who blindly accept current schedules and dosing
• those who are anti-vaccine
• those who want reforms to make vaccines safe

We're in the third camp, but don't foresee safe schedules and dosing reforms anytime soon. So for now we want waivers that will allow parents to pick and choose when and what children receive. Some pediatricians are broad-minded enough to split doses into smaller amounts given over several weeks or months, but these doctors are in the minority because most toe the official line.

 

[DieHappy]

Couple of quick thoughts:

As we were leaving the neonatal intensive care ward the head neonatologist mentioned our son's first few shots, which I said we would not be getting. He said to consider this, "The ideal situation would be for your children to not get any shots, and every other child to get them. That way you get the benefits without the risks." This is the head of one of the best children's departments in the country admitting there are significant risks associated with vaccination but that we should be willing to take one for the team. My reply? "Thank you for validating my decision not to vaccinate my son." I had to elaborate since that was not his intent so I explained to him that I care about my son first and foremost. Call me greedy, you're darn right, when it comes to my kids there's nothing I won't do. He realized he'd lost the argument when I said I'd happily toss him under a bus to save my son.

I'd rather chance an isolated minority of autism cases than a nation of kids at risk of spending middle school in a sanitarium or an iron lung.

Autism right now is 1 in 166 people.
ADHD is 1 in 12.

Isolated minority? What?
What was the rate for polio before the vaccine?

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

"All vaccinated boys, compared to unvaccinated boys: - Vaccinated boys were 155% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.55) - Vaccinated boys were 224% more likely to have ADHD (RR 3.24) - Vaccinated boys were 61% more likely to have autism (RR 1.61)"

Take a look at the RR. I love how so many people will look at second hand smoke and think the RR of 1.2 is conclusive evidence but a 3.2 is unproven and worth the risk.

Personally, we wait until the kids are at least 2 and then only give them one shot per visit. And we don't go in more than twice a year so they are very far behind. They might be fully vaccinated by college, but they might not ever get MMR, we'll see.

 

[khristeeanos]

Hi dee.

Thank you for your moding. If you believe that this topic is better suited elsewhere please move it.

I am trying to gather information from both sides and a discussion like this is like talking about OSAS or other doctrines - it is bound to get passion from both sides.

 

[Alaskamomma]

I have three children (12, 7, 6) and none of them are vaccinated. I did a lot of reserach on this before I was pregnant with any of them and to me the risk we take with them not being vaccinated was a good choice considering the risks of those who have died because of complications due to vaccinations.

I read in three different medical journals that in one town in Idaho 18 children died from complications due to the Tentanus/Polio vaccine. That was a way higher percentage of those who contracted the disease itself. By almost 99.1/4 percent higher.

I also read what chemicals were put into the vaccinations as a preservative and those were linked to causing cancer in rats. I also read the link to autism as well.

I also read journals from Japan and England and their case studies as well. And from all that I concluded I would not give my child vaccinations. And to this date in their lives the ONLY time they have been to the hospital is for well baby check ups or for school examinations. I think there is a link there for sure!!!

 

[Gizoux]

alaurie, I keep forgetting about the lobbies. To that end I thank you for setting me straight.

alaskamomma, I appreciate your information, but I'm not so sure I'll skip the shot if they get a nasty bite from one of the cats or somesuch after they're six years old. Even then, your suggestion to read the ingredient list is sound advice. Thank you.

 

[bubblefish]

Thread moved from General Physical Health to Christian Philosophy and Ethics.
​

 

[Ave Maria]

I am all for mandatory vaccinations. The benefits definitely outweigh any supposed risks. That said, I don't think the risks have been studied enough either.

 

[elcapitan]

I have three children (12, 7, 6) and none of them are vaccinated. I did a lot of reserach on this before I was pregnant with any of them and to me the risk we take with them not being vaccinated was a good choice considering the risks of those who have died because of complications due to vaccinations.

I read in three different medical journals that in one town in Idaho 18 children died from complications due to the Tentanus/Polio vaccine. That was a way higher percentage of those who contracted the disease itself. By almost 99.1/4 percent higher.

You know why so few children contract Tetanus or Polio? Because they took the vaccine.

In any case, I haven't been able to find a reference for this event, and your description isn't very elightening either. 18 children died over what period of time? simultaneously? over 5 decades?

Which "small" town in Idaho is it?

And is there any reason why you should conclude that such a death rate from vaccine complications is normal and not an isolated incident?

I also read what chemicals were put into the vaccinations as a preservative and those were linked to causing cancer in rats. I also read the link to autism as well.

Thiomersal is the chemical in question. There is no autism link.

http://www.slate.com/id/2123647/
http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/questions/en/
http://tinyurl.com/3aqsh5

I even found a study that suggests that thiomersal would kill cancer cells:
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/100/1/109

Of course, even if thiomersal did cause cancer and autism, it wouldn't matter if your children died of a disease easily preventable by vaccines.

I also read journals from Japan and England and their case studies as well. And from all that I concluded I would not give my child vaccinations. And to this date in their lives the ONLY time they have been to the hospital is for well baby check ups or for school examinations. I think there is a link there for sure!!!

I fear for your children's lives (and health).

 

[alaurie]

I am all for mandatory vaccinations. The benefits definitely outweigh any supposed risks. That said, I don't think the risks have been studied enough either.

(underline emphasis mine)


Not for those of us who love a baby that reaped the risks.

 

[Dannager]

(underline emphasis mine)


Not for those of us who love a baby that reaped the risks.

As terrible as your suffering must be, your child is one person. It seems like a big deal to you, but to society as a whole it really doesn't register as anything but a drop in the bucket - and there are very few drops. Vaccination does far, far more good than harm. It doesn't exist solely as preventative care for the child in question, but also to prevent the spread of diseases to others.

So yes, it sucks. There's no way that I can downplay how difficult this must be for your family. But this really is one of those negligible risks that we take in order to ensure our rather incredible standard of living. If your child's condition can truly be linked, causally, to vaccinations, you just ended up on the short end of the probability.

 

[DieHappy]

As terrible as your suffering must be, your child is one person. It seems like a big deal to you, but to society as a whole it really doesn't register as anything but a drop in the bucket - and there are very few drops.

Very few drops?

Autism right now is 1 in 166 people.
ADHD is 1 in 12.

What was the rate for polio before the vaccine?

"All vaccinated boys, compared to unvaccinated boys: - Vaccinated boys were 155% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.55) - Vaccinated boys were 224% more likely to have ADHD (RR 3.24) - Vaccinated boys were 61% more likely to have autism (RR 1.61)"

Take a look at the RR. I love how so many people will look at second hand smoke and think the RR of 1.2 is conclusive evidence but a 3.2 is unproven and worth the risk.

Your bias is blinding you.

 

[Dannager]

Very few drops?

Yes.

Your bias is blinding you.

ADHD is overdiagnosed. Autism existed before vaccines did, and the quotation you used is misrepresenting it - the vast majority of cases (around 80%) that make up that figure are ASD (autism spectrum disorders), which are relatively mild cases of autism. The figures have increased over time not because of vaccinations, but because of changing diagnostic methods which better identify autistic behavior.

In other words, your willingness to accept figures handed to you without question is blinding you.

 

[DieHappy]

I suppose, then, that you could explain the rate differences between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated? If it were merely and across the board rise, I would agree with you, but it's not. I've read the studies, the difference is real.

 

[Dannager]

I suppose, then, that you could explain the rate differences between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated? If it were merely and across the board rise, I would agree with you, but it's not. I've read the studies, the difference is real.

I didn't say that they had no effect. But the small effect they do have (once you've adjusted for unrelated factors) does not even begin to outweigh the benefits (immediate and long-term) of vaccination.