Using Scripture, prove to me that God love unconditionally

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

but I still don't know what condition you see that is supposedly on God's Love...can you please show or explain or something that would help my understanding here so I know what we are talking about? what verse shows conditions on God's Love? I missed that verse. again, I haven't seen any conditions on God's Love. what condition is here for God's Love? There is a condition for how we are to behave once we accept God's Love as in how we would behave if we are part of the family of God. We already talked about that, but it does NOT say that God will Love us if we "keep His commandments"...it says that if we keep His commandments we will remain in His love, not receive it...and that remaining just for the record, according to the context of the passage is about the completeness of that Love, iow's receiving the benefits of that Love, something else we already talked about. In fact, as we look at the context, one that I personally love we see that "remaining" in that Love is about a change of relationship not one of the Love being given or taken away. It is to go from God/man to friend. We get to call Christ friend if we obey His commands. It's not a removal or giving of Love but rather a change in status...you know, like being given the adoption papers of a child of the King is not about whether or not God shows Love but whether or not we are willing to accept the new relationship. NO condition of His Love only on the relationship that flows from that Love. You didn't see my response because I couldn't follow who a verse about inheritance is tied to God's Love being conditional...when I asked for clarification I was insulted. See both of these passages are talking about our reaction to God's Love not a condition of God's Love so I don't understand how it addresses the question at hand. Until or unless I understand how it is being applied I can't comment.

First, I don't think I or He-man insulted you. He was pointing to a verse where God didn't let someone repent, which you previously said didn't exist. I think the challenge is you and I are coming at this from opposite sides.

From what I understand, you believe that because God loves first, it means God loves unconditionally. While I agree that God NECESSARILY loves first, I disagree with you that His loving first means He loves unconditionally.

What you call "a reaction to God's love" or "a change in status", I call conditions. A condition is a condition, whether applied before or after. So, if a condition applies--even the condition of "believing" to receive His love, it is conditional, because believing requires action. Jesus says: "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say" (Luke 6:46) and "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt 7:21) And that is consistent with other Scripture, because John 4:23 says that the Father seeks true worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

When John 15:10 says: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love;" I am speaking about the condition to remain in His love. Just previous to that verse, Jesus says: "I am the vine, you are the branches: he that abides in Me and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:5-6) Isa 66:22-24, Rev 20:15.

I don't see how you can justify being "unconditionally" loved and being eternally burned or forever in torment simultaneously? Conditional love does allow for that. Eternal punishment is not teaching with a hope of eventual repentence and a different outcome, it is eternal punishment. Jesus shared about that in many places. People don't choose hell, they choose disbelief and hell is part of the announced consequence for that disbelief--because the only way any of us can avoid what all of us deserve, hell, is by belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

We love him, because he first loved us.

John is not including the antichrists he mentions in the same letter, 1 John 2:19 who "were not of us."

So "us" isn't everyone. These verses lend themselves to showing there is a condition for His love.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What you call "a reaction to God's love" or "a change in status", I call conditions. A condition is a condition, whether applied before or after. So, if a condition applies--even the condition of "believing" to receive His love, it is conditional, because believing requires action. Jesus says: "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say" (Luke 6:46) and "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt 7:21) And that is consistent with other Scripture, because John 4:23 says that the Father seeks true worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

When John 15:10 says: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love;" I am speaking about the condition to remain in His love. Just previous to that verse, Jesus says: "I am the vine, you are the branches: he that abides in Me and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:5-6) Isa 66:22-24, Rev 20:15.

I don't see how you can justify being "unconditionally" loved and being eternally burned or forever in torment simultaneously? Conditional love does allow for that. Eternal punishment is not teaching with a hope of eventual repentence and a different outcome, it is eternal punishment. Jesus shared about that in many places. People don't choose hell, they choose disbelief and hell is part of the announced consequence for that disbelief--because the only way any of us can avoid what all of us deserve, hell, is by belief in Jesus Christ.

I don't see how your post has substantiated your claim. Salvation, as a choice to believe is open to all people until their death and Jesus loves them even if they do not love Him.

God's Word says that God has shown His great love for us in sending His Son. This was decided BEFORE the world was created.

Love and letting a free person or someone with free will make their own choice are not the same thing. It is out of great love that God gives us free will.

 

[ToBeLoved]

John is not including the antichrists he mentions in the same letter, 1 John 2:19 who "were not of us."

So "us" isn't everyone. These verses lend themselves to showing there is a condition for His love.

Your verse does not prove that God did not love those who did not stay among them.

Those verses show what the human beings who love God did. Not God's love to His creation.

You can't read something into it that it doesn't say. God is exact.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8
God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Your verse does not prove that God did not love those who did not stay among them.

Those verses show what the human beings who love God did. Not God's love to His creation.

You can't read something into it that it doesn't say. God is exact.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8
God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

You believe he died to save Satan too? Or what Paul said, that some vessels were made to be destroyed?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You believe he died to save Satan too? Or what Paul said, that some vessels were made to be destroyed?

Angels are not part of Christ's plan for redemption. That is for human beings.

Angels made their choice long ago and were not born into original sin (inherited)

We are all vessels headed for distruction until by faith, we choose God and are made into vessels for His Glory.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Angels are not part of Christ's plan for redemption. That is for human beings.

Angels made their choice long ago and were not born into original sin (inherited)

Okay so one condition is if you're an angel or not.

That's a start.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Okay so one condition is if you're an angel or not.

That's a start.

It's not a condition.

Salvation is for humans, mankind. Mankind was separated from God, by sin.

Angels started out in heaven WITH GOD and Jesus does not offer them redemption, the good angels are still with God and do not need salvation.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

It's not a condition.

Salvation is for humans, mankind. Mankind was separated from God, by sin.

Angels started out in heaven WITH GOD and Jesus does not offer them redemption.

But it's not unconditional Salvation we're talking about. It's unconditional love.

Are you really saying that Yahweh doesn't love His other creations the same way He loves people?

 

[ToBeLoved]

But it's not unconditional Salvation we're talking about. It's unconditional love.

Are you really saying that Yahweh doesn't love His other creations the same way He loves people?

I am saying that God has told us about Hos decision regarding human beings and that salvation is open to all who come to Christ.

Angels God handles differently and I don’t believe God has shared what those exact thinks are but He is righteous and just and will deal with them in that manner whatever that is

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

I am saying that God has told us about Hos decision regarding human beings and that salvation is open to all who come to Christ.

Angels God handles differently and I don’t believe God has shared what those exact thinks are but He is righteous and just and will deal with them in that manner whatever that is

Well, he does tell us a bit about Satan at least:

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

So, would you be willing to admit that Yahweh loves people with different conditions than He does other creations?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, he does tell us a bit about Satan at least:

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

So, would you be willing to admit that Yahweh loves people with different conditions than He does other creations?

No. It's not about love.

God is righteous and righteousness for God is perfect, as Jesus Christ was and is perfectly righteous.

God MUST be righteous, perfectly, in perfection, without flaw.

So God must deal with His different creations as to what is just and righteous to that specific situatuation.

We do not know all things. Especially about angels and that creation.

But that doesn't speak to what Godly love is. To hold accountable those given free will who have used that free will to execute choices. Justness must have accountability at least when sin is involved. Hence Jesus having to die. Jesus committed no wrong, but God demanded justice for sin. Instead of us suffering the penalty, Jesus Christ did. To ransome us from that destruction.

That is the love you should feel in your heart and seeing how loving and beautiful God's demonstrated love for you is. Not tying God's love to you to some other circumstance we know little about, like other creation. We do not know all that God does, obviously

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

No. It's not about love.

God is righteous and righteousness for God is perfect, as Jesus Christ was and is perfectly righteous.

God MUST be righteous, perfectly, in perfection, without flaw.

So God must deal with His different creations as to what is just and righteous to that specific situatuation.

We do not know all things. Especially about angels and that creation.

But that doesn't speak to what Godly love is. To hold accountable those given free will who have used that free will to execute choices. Justness must have accountability at least when sin is involved. Hence Jesus having to die. Jesus committed no wrong, but God demanded justice for sin. Instead of us suffering the penalty, Jesus Christ did. To ransome us from that destruction.

I agree with most of what your saying. It sounds like Romans 9 to me.

But the question of this thread is about love. The general question is, does He unconditionally love everything, everybody, for ever? Yes or no, or what combinations thereof, preferably backed up by Scripture.

We're not trying to determine if Yahweh is righteous or not, we already know that He is (and that would be against the forum rules to debate that here.)

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree with most of what your saying. It sounds like Romans 9 to me.

But the question of this thread is about love. The general question is, does He unconditionally love everything, everybody, for ever? Yes or no, or what combinations thereof, preferably backed up by Scripture.

We're not trying to determine if Yahweh is righteous or not, we already know that He is (and that would be against the forum rules to debate that here.)

This is honestly the way I see it.

God is often compared to a father.

If my child darted out into traffic and almost got killed, out of fear that they may have died and may die if they do it again, I might spank that child's butt fairly hard. Now someone just seeing me standing in the middle of the road spanking a child might think I don't love them, as a matter of fact they may think that I hate them and that is why I spanked them.

But if one looks at the situation as sometimes you have to do something that you may not like to do (like spank a child) in order for them to realize not to do it again, because smiling and saying "honey, don't run in the street again" may not work, the spanking of the child although harsh makes enough of an impact that the child will probably not do it again and get killed.

If the parent laughed and said "don't do that again sweetie", is that loving? Knowing the next time they aren't thinking they may? Sometimes to love is to share consequences and kids don't really understand death. They may just want to get the ball that went into the street.

I don't know if you are a parent, but many times things that are good for them in the long run, don't seem good at the time.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

This is honestly the way I see it.

God is often compared to a father.

If my child darted out into traffic and almost got killed, out of fear that they may have died and may die if they do it again, I might spank that child's butt fairly hard. Now someone just seeing me standing in the middle of the road spanking a child might think I don't love them, as a matter of fact they may think that I hate them and that is why I spanked them.

But if one looks at the situation as sometimes you have to do something that you may not like to do (like spank a child) in order for them to realize not to do it again, because smiling and saying "honey, don't run in the street again" may not work, the spanking of the child although harsh makes enough of an impact that the child will probably not do it again and get killed.

If the parent laughed and said "don't do that again sweetie", is that loving? Knowing the next time they aren't thinking they may? Sometimes to love is to share consequences and kids don't really understand death. They may just want to get the ball that went into the street.

I don't know if you are a parent, but many times things that are good for them in the long run, don't seem good at the time.

It's True. I do believe Yahweh loves His children like unto that, and why wouldn't He?

But I'm minded of John 8:44 where Christ reveals that some people's father is Satan.

Does Yahweh love Satan's kids differently than His own children?

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's True. I do believe Yahweh loves His children like unto that, and why wouldn't He?

But I'm minded of John 8:44 where Christ reveals that some people's father is Satan.

Does Yahweh love Satan's kids differently than His own children?

There are only two masters brother and we all start out with sin as our master.

Satan is the father of sin.

That's just the way it is. Your master is who you follow, not like a devil worshipper, but by the devil, it means your flesh or that part of you that is ego, and pleasure, and desire.

Satan is the default father because it is in sin and living in that sinfullness.

When we come to Christ we change ownership. We change Masters. We were bought for a price by Christ, a heavy price.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

There are only two masters brother and we all start out with sin as our master.

Satan is the father of sin.

That's just the way it is. Your master is who you follow, not like a devil worshipper, but by the devil, it means your flesh or that part of you that is ego, and pleasure, and desire.

Satan is the default father because it is in sin and living in that sinfullness.

When we come to Christ we change ownership. We change Masters. We were bought for a price by Christ, a heavy price.

Well, to ask in another way, does Yahweh love people who deny Christ even unto the Judgment Day (and all knowing Father knows who they are) as He loves His own?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, to ask in another way, does Yahweh love people who deny Christ even unto the Judgment Day (and all knowing Father knows who they are) as He loves His own?

I don't get your premise here, so I'm going to come at this from a different angle.

I think God's love is much more complex than our love. Imagine you were a parent and you knew the perfect life for your child, the perfect life that would bring them the most happiness, but they decided to say get addicted to crack and then 8 years later kill themselves.

How hard for you as a parent would it be to know that your child could have had the most fabulous life of such joy and happiness, but threw it away and killed themself? Would you not love that child that killed themself?

If you love someone, when they don't do what you want do you stop caring? and if you are able to turn that love on and off like a light switch, was it ever really love in the first place?

Then you say had a second child. That child was also on crack but this one was alive.

Do you love the alive child more than the dead one?

I don't know if you are a parent or not ,s o maybe bad examples

As a parent you get joy seeing your child do well or live up to their potential or be happy, it brings you joy and you may be closer to that one child, but true love lasts a lifetime. It's not a switch that turns on and off.

Not like romantic love, but deep love for say parents, or brothers/sisters or a best friend.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

If you love someone, when they don't do what you want do you stop caring? and if you are able to turn that love on and off like a light switch, was it ever really love in the first place?

I appreciate your parent parables. You raise a good question. I say no.

And I believe if you ask Father Yahweh, He too would say no.

Which is why I believe He never really loved Satan or Esau in the first place.

Paul explains that before he was even born (Romans 9:11) that Esau, like Pharaoh, was intended to be a vessel of destruction (Romans 9:22,) and that He created him this way (Romans 9:21.)

Perhaps one could convince me that Yahweh's love for those whom He will save (which He decided to save before being born) is unconditional. Whether they have been saved yet or not. Whether they are currently with Satan or not. He will save whom He will save (Romans 9:15,) and there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop Him (John 10:27-29), not even ourselves (Romans 9:16.)

But for those He created whom He knows are going to eternal torment, He never loved them at all. And as Paul indicates, He hates them (Romans 9:13,) and He created them for the express purpose of showing His Wrath and Power (Romans 9:22,) and that we have no right to question Him (Romans 9:20,) or His Righteousness (Romans 9:14.)

 

[ToBeLoved]

I appreciate your parent parables. You raise a good question. I say no.

And I believe if you ask Father Yahweh, He too would say no.

Which is why I believe He never really loved Satan or Esau in the first place.

Paul explains that before he was even born (Romans 9:11) that Esau, like Pharaoh, was intended to be a vessel of destruction (Romans 9:22,) and that He created him this way (Romans 9:21.)

Perhaps one could convince me that Yahweh's love for those whom He will save (which He decided to save before being born) is unconditional. Whether they have been saved yet or not. Whether they are currently with Satan or not. He will save whom He will save (Romans 9:15,) and there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop Him (John 10:27-29), not even ourselves (Romans 9:16.)

But for those He created whom He knows are going to eternal torment, He never loved them at all. And as Paul indicates, He hates them (Romans 9:13,) and He created them for the express purpose of showing His Wrath and Power (Romans 9:22,) and that we have no right to question Him (Romans 9:20,) or His Righteousness (Romans 9:14.)

Ok. Let’s follow your train of thought that God never loved Satan example.

So God has this angel inn heaven Lucifer who he gave one of the highest angel command post to in heaven, similar to arch angel amdd God hated him.

Was this the only angel created God hated or does he hate all of them?

And since God
Doesn’t change does Je right now hate all angels, some angels or what?

For no reason. Just created them and hated them