In trying to catch up on your posts to me:
(1) unconditional love: No conditions to receive the full love. That doesn't mean "no conditions before love is expressed." That means "no conditions at all--before or after that love is expressed."
Okay but what conditions govern God's Love? You show conditions for accepting that Love, conditions for living in the favor of that Love but no conditions for that Love to be given. In fact, one passage used to defend conditions says that God Matthew 5:45 which is the favor of Love shown to everyone, you know, without conditions...now that is not to say that we can't reject Love, if we couldn't it wouldn't be Love at all and we talked about that already...remember our son who refuses the benefits of our love? But that is not a condition on Love it is our son refusing to accept that Love. There is no condition but if he doesn't accept it there is nothing we can do but keep offering it unconditionally.
(2) I have continued to argue that God has never claimed that He has unconditional love for each and every man. This is a theological construct. Where did it come from, if it wasn't blatantly expressed in the Scripture? It is an assumption built on Scriptures that talk about God's GREAT (not unconditional) love and the death of His Son for us, while we were still yet sinners/enemies.
and yet you fail to show conditional Love in scripture. Without support from scripture you have no case by contrast many here have shown you where scripture talks about unconditional Love. I really think the core of the disagreement is what we mean by unconditional Love.
(3) I have never implied or meant to imply that God did not have to LOVE US FIRST (prevenient love). I believe I have said that was absolutely necessary for us and I have argued that all of us needed that prevenient love to be shown to us a minimum of twice (in what Jesus did, and then in an individual way). I don't question that God loves first. I just don't believe that loving first (even while we were still yet enemies) equals "unconditional love".
so we are back to what unconditional Love means...now I have shown you both in scripture and in real life what it means to me and you haven't seemed to question that understanding but you also refuse to address those examples. Let's take my son for example. I told him that he would always be welcomed in our home, invited, wanted, Loved, etc. because we respect him enough to let him make his own decisions. To which he replied, "if that is love I don't want it because it makes me feel bad about myself." Now, he is not reaping the benefits of our Love because he refused it but please tell me what conditions were put on that Love? There aren't any....in fact, our Love still flows out to him and calls him to come home but he refuses. He made up in his mind that because he decided to do something that we personally don't approve of that he would not be Loved. IOW's like you, he himself put conditions on our Love and because of that he refuses the very Love that he craves. The problem is that those conditions are a lie, a false construct of his mind in order for him to justify his decisions. They are not real and unfortunately keep him from the benefits of Love that we want to give him. The same is true for our putting conditions on God's Love that are not there.
(4) I have shared verses that Jesus said (like John 15:9-10). If you have to do something to "continue in His love," it was never unconditionally given. I understand you and I disagree on this. You have already shared that.
the only problem with your assertion if found in the context of scripture which is something we dare not dismiss. I would appreciate you addressing the contextual problems with your assertions.
(5) I also think "salvation"/staying in relationship cannot be separated from the "unconditional love" question.
as with our son it's an acceptance or dismissal of unconditional Love you are talking about here and as such is not making your case that God's Love is conditional.
(a) I don't believe God acting in unconditional love toward ALL MEN would allow ANY MAN to go into the hell described in the Bible. The hell described in the Bible is full out punishment with no chance of parole or repentence, if the Word of God is True (and I believe it is).
now we get into hell...as I pointed out previously, hell is the consequence for sin not the punishment for it....which in essence brings us back to the question of what condition is on Love. What you are trying to make a case for is that unconditional Love should remove our free will or choice. But see the problem with this argument is that if there is no choice it isn't Love at all. Love has built into it a choice, without that there is no Love
(b) Turning people over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1) or a reprobate mind (2 Thes 2) before they die is not "unconditional love" toward those people. Heb 6:4-6 also talks about those who fall away unable to be renewed to repentence if they fall away. That also doesn't show unconditional love which would be ever-ready to take them back no matter what they did, because there are no conditions and God realizes what hell will be like for them, if He doesn't let them repent.
why not...if I am being stubborn and defiant no matter the correction given why is allowing me to go my own way to see what our choices boil down to not LOVE? IOW's sometimes Love allows us to go our own way so that we can see where we should be...that is how Love works. Love has a goal, a purpose and that purpose is to show us that Love desires only what is best for us...if the only way I can see that is through being allowed to go my own way then that is what Love does...as I said, no conditions.
As to Hebrews I laugh only because there is a huge debate over what that means. But I do believe that it is talking about those who have experienced the fullness of God's Love and then reject it. So, let's look at it from a modern standpoint...mix in a bit of scripture and see where the conditions lie or if there are conditions....we have a prodigal son who takes his inheritance and squanders it...comes home and is welcomed with open arms as a son again...yeah...but instead of learning from his days of wandering, the son decided that he is due another inheritance and another bout of disobedient defiant behavior and demands the father cater to his whims no matter what. Does unconditional Love say, "screw the brother this child will get everything I have and can squander it without any restrictions till all I have and all I am is spent"? Or does unconditional Love say, "look, son, I love you but you have already been down this path and you have already spent your inheritance and now it is time for your brother to receive his portion. You are still my son but you have been foolish with what you were given." See, if we carefully read Heb in context this is the picture we are given. Which is unconditional Love?
I understand you don't agree with me on that. That is your choice. But I can't say it more clearly.
I'm not asking you to say it more clearly, you are clear enough on what you believe what I am asking you to do is address the issues I find with your opinions on the matter. If you cannot address the issues and concerns and questions I can't possibly fully understand where you are coming from and why and isn't that what discussion is suppose to do? exchange ideas and opinions in such a way as that we both can grow in our understanding of what the other is saying?
