Using Scripture, prove to me that God love unconditionally

[razzelflabben]

Unless you love death the enemy,

you're welcome to read over my posts and any related Scripture quoted therein. Maybe there are some you missed, even one concerning 1 John 5?

But then again, if you love death the enemy it's a waste of time.

why are you even posting in the thread if you aren't interested in communicating what you believe and what you are trying to say?

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

David, I am confused. It seems like you quote Scripture and then refuted it with your words. Paul is making a very clear point in Romans 9. When I go back to to Exodus 33:19, God is speaking to Moses about Moses' request to see His face, not about whether or not He will judge those who won't ever make it out of the wilderness, because of their disbelief. When I go back to where God talked about hardening Pharoah's heart, that is what it says (Exod 12:9-10, Exod 14:4,8, etc)--God did it.

Thanks for finding that reference to Exodus 33:19!

That part is really interesting, as the Most High partially reveals Himself to Moses. It's interesting that He calls it "mercy,' and reminds me of:

John 17:

3 ..this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yahushua Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

1 Corinthians 13:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”​

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for finding that reference to Exodus 33:19!

That part is really interesting, as the Most High partially reveals Himself to Moses. It's interesting that He calls it "mercy,' and reminds me of:

John 17:

3 ..this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yahushua Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

1 Corinthians 13:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”​

Let's assume that you believe this means that God turns people away who humble themselves, repent, and seek forgiveness...please provide one passage that demonstrates where God ever turned someone away that was genuinely seeking Him especially when He says that all who seek Him will find Him....Isaiah 55:6 and Matthew 6:33

See, rightly dividing the word of God is not a matter of dismissing any passages that do not fit our desired interpretation which is why you were asked how you interpret the passages you present.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Hebrews 12:16-17 Esau sold his birthrights and did not repent and was rejected.

Great addition. He couldn't repent. He already drank the soup that he sold his birthright for. He was rejected by God, not man. His earthly father wanted to bless him; but, he couldn't take back what he had already given to another--even though his dad was deceived into giving it to Jacob by Jacob and their mother. In the end, the purposes and plan of God were fulfilled.

Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup and wasn't allowed to repent and take it back.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Let's assume that you believe..

If you loved us and not death, you would not need to assume what I or anyone else believes, for this very thread reveals as much to anyone with eyes to see, but as it is our word has no place in you.

Please do not bother us again, because we are struggling to defeat our enemies, including death and Satan, and we do not pray for them. Rather, we want be with and know our Eternal Creator who hates our enemies so that we might know that He loves us.

 

[razzelflabben]

My enemies are already defeated by Christ on the cross...I don't know about the rest of you all but my God didn't suffer and die for nothing, there was a purpose and the purpose was to set me free...amen and praise the Lord I have been set free John 8:36...since the Son has set me free, I know I am free for it is a promise of God...if you want to be set free rather than be in bondage as the above post indicates, let's talk I can introduce you to the Christ who sets us free.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Great addition. He couldn't repent. He already drank the soup that he sold his birthright for. He was rejected by God, not man. His earthly father wanted to bless him; but, he couldn't take back what he had already given to another--even though his dad was deceived into giving it to Jacob by Jacob and their mother. In the end, the purposes and plan of God were fulfilled.

Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup and wasn't allowed to repent and take it back.

Another detail:

Esau was trying to steal back the firstborn status when he agreed to go hunt for food to receive the blessing from Isaac.

He put Rebecca and Jacob and even Yahweh in a position such that Jacob lied to his own father to rightly receive the firstborn's blessing.

How awful! And how could Esau not know what he was doing?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Thanks for finding that reference to Exodus 33:19!

That part is really interesting, as the Most High partially reveals Himself to Moses. It's interesting that He calls it "mercy,' and reminds me of:

John 17:

3 ..this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yahushua Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

1 Corinthians 13:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”​

I love those two verses. In the first, Jesus defines eternal life, not as going to heaven, but as knowing The Father and His Son. Sadly, the second one is misused by people to claim that "The Bible" is the "that which is perfect comes", so we can know face-to-face. But, if that was true, we wouldn't be having conversations like this, because everyone would know the Truth and there would be no debate.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Another detail:

Esau was trying to steal back the firstborn status when he agreed to go hunt for food to receive the blessing from Isaac.

He put Rebecca and Jacob and even Yahweh in a position such that Jacob lied to his own father to rightly receive the firstborn's blessing.

How awful! And how could Esau not know what he was doing?

Very interesting point. I never thought of it like that. Thanks!

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

My enemies are already defeated by Christ on the cross...I don't know about the rest of you all but my God didn't suffer and die for nothing, there was a purpose and the purpose was to set me free...amen and praise the Lord I have been set free John 8:36...since the Son has set me free, I know I am free for it is a promise of God...if you want to be set free rather than be in bondage as the above post indicates, let's talk I can introduce you to the Christ who sets us free.

I appreciate your change in attitude, thank you. But we're already following Christ:

Ephesians 6:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

And spiritual wickedness in people too.

 

[razzelflabben]

I appreciate your change in attitude, thank you. But we're already following Christ:

change of attitude? What change of attitude? I am saying the same thing in the same tone I have said from the beginning.

Ephesians 6:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

And spiritual wickedness in people too.

You are the one that said you were in bondage. Christ died on the cross to free me from both sin and death...including but not limited to the sin of refusing to clarify your intentions when I asked you to do so so that communication could happen.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

..the sin of refusing to clarify your intentions..

The pharisees added to the Law of Yahweh by saying that not washing your hands before eating is a sin.

We follow Christ and rebuke pharisees, and we "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

We leave you to it.

 

[razzelflabben]

The pharisees added to the Law of Yahweh by saying that not washing your hands before eating is a sin.

We follow Christ and rebuke pharisees, and we "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

We leave you to it.

lol so you add to your sin the sin of judgment and blame me? Where is that scriptural? And all this because I was interested enough in what you were saying to ask you to clarify what I didn't understand in your words....sounds a bit like pride getting in the way, don't you think? rhetorical question...we can see for ourselves...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am re-examining a lot of traditionally used theological concepts. I believe in the power of God's Word and believe if the concept is not "of man", it will be found clearly expressed in Scripture. I am looking for a Scriptural validation of the concept, if anyone has one.

One of the claims people make is that God loves unconditionally. In examining Scripture, I don't see that concept. His love is greater than any love we can imagine; but it isn't unconditional. I do see that God must preveniently love us (loving us first both collectively and individually) before we can come to really love Him.

My bigger concern is that we actually work against God when claiming something about Him that isn't true. And, in this case, we open the door for shackian universalists and others who call Jesus a liar, because they can't fathom an unconditionally loving God sending anyone to hell.

1 John 4:19King James Version (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

If God never unconditionally loved sinners, we would not love God. Simple

 

[razzelflabben]

1 John 4:19King James Version (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

If God never unconditionally loved sinners, we would not love God. Simple

nice

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Let's assume that you believe this means that God turns people away who humble themselves, repent, and seek forgiveness...please provide one passage that demonstrates where God ever turned someone away that was genuinely seeking Him especially when He says that all who seek Him will find Him....Isaiah 55:6 and Matthew 6:33

See, rightly dividing the word of God is not a matter of dismissing any passages that do not fit our desired interpretation which is why you were asked how you interpret the passages you present.

I completely agree with your claim that "rightly dividing the Word of God" means you don't dismiss any verses. That is what led to this quest. Claiming "conditional love toward men" is an easier to substantiate than claiming "unconditional love toward men" (meaning NEVER conditional) as a characteristic of God, because if one verse shows conditional love, by your own discussion above, it should refute the idea of unconditional love. I have already shared many verses that would challenge the idea of "unconditional love", because there are conditions attached. Jesus talked about "remaining/abiding in His love" by "keeping His commandments". (John 15:9-10) If one verse shows God's love isn't unconditional, doesn't that refute the idea of unconditional love?

I didn't see your response to what He-man shared regarding Heb 12:16-17. Another example would be Heb 6:4-6. Neither of those verses negate what God says about people who diligently seek Him finding Him. Finding Him doesn't mandate a person choosing Him nor remaining in His love.

 

[razzelflabben]

I completely agree with your claim that "rightly dividing the Word of God" means you don't dismiss any verses. That is what led to this quest. Claiming "conditional love toward men" is an easier to substantiate than claiming "unconditional love toward men" (meaning NEVER conditional)

but I still don't know what condition you see that is supposedly on God's Love...can you please show or explain or something that would help my understanding here so I know what we are talking about?

as a characteristic of God, because if one verse shows conditional love, by your own discussion above, it should refute the idea of unconditional love.

what verse shows conditions on God's Love? I missed that verse.

I have already shared many verses that would challenge the idea of "unconditional love", because there are conditions attached.

again, I haven't seen any conditions on God's Love.

Jesus talked about "remaining/abiding in His love" by "keeping His commandments". (John 15:9-10) If one verse shows God's love isn't unconditional, doesn't that refute the idea of unconditional love?

what condition is here for God's Love? There is a condition for how we are to behave once we accept God's Love as in how we would behave if we are part of the family of God. We already talked about that, but it does NOT say that God will Love us if we "keep His commandments"...it says that if we keep His commandments we will remain in His love, not receive it...and that remaining just for the record, according to the context of the passage is about the completeness of that Love, iow's receiving the benefits of that Love, something else we already talked about. In fact, as we look at the context, one that I personally love we see that "remaining" in that Love is about a change of relationship not one of the Love being given or taken away. It is to go from God/man to friend. We get to call Christ friend if we obey His commands. It's not a removal or giving of Love but rather a change in status...you know, like being given the adoption papers of a child of the King is not about whether or not God shows Love but whether or not we are willing to accept the new relationship. NO condition of His Love only on the relationship that flows from that Love.

I didn't see your response to what He-man shared regarding Heb 12:16-17. Another example would be Heb 6:4-6. Neither of those verses negate what God says about people who diligently seek Him finding Him. Finding Him doesn't mandate a person choosing Him nor remaining in His love.

You didn't see my response because I couldn't follow who a verse about inheritance is tied to God's Love being conditional...when I asked for clarification I was insulted. See both of these passages are talking about our reaction to God's Love not a condition of God's Love so I don't understand how it addresses the question at hand. Until or unless I understand how it is being applied I can't comment.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

1 John 4:19King James Version (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

If God never unconditionally loved sinners, we would not love God. Simple

I love that verse. And, it is sooooo true that without His PREVENIENT love (loving us first), we couldn't really love Him--on both a collective and individual level.

But "prevenient" doesn't equal "unconditional". His prevenient love was displayed with what He did for us (collectively) and His prevenient love is again demonstrated by His drawing us.

Conditional love does not mean that the love is withheld unless people meet conditions up front. But, there comes a time when God stops reaching out (2 Thes 2:11-12, Romans 1:28-32, Heb 6:4-6, Rev 3:5/Rev 20:15, Rev 21:7-8, Isa 55:6, etc)

 

[razzelflabben]

I love that verse. And, it is sooooo true that without His PREVENIENT love (loving us first), we couldn't really love Him--on both a collective and individual level.

But "prevenient" doesn't equal "unconditional". His prevenient love was displayed with what He did for us (collectively) and His prevenient love is again demonstrated by His drawing us.

Conditional love does not mean that the love is withheld unless people meet conditions up front. But, there comes a time when God stops reaching out (2 Thes 2:11-12, Romans 1:28-32, Heb 6:4-6, Rev 3:5/Rev 20:15, Rev 21:7-8, Isa 55:6, etc)

I am wondering how many people here know what Biblical Love is...for the purpose of being able to answer the OP Question....

 

[ToBeLoved]

I love that verse. And, it is sooooo true that without His PREVENIENT love (loving us first), we couldn't really love Him--on both a collective and individual level.

But "prevenient" doesn't equal "unconditional". His prevenient love was displayed with what He did for us (collectively) and His prevenient love is again demonstrated by His drawing us.

Conditional love does not mean that the love is withheld unless people meet conditions up front. But, there comes a time when God stops reaching out (2 Thes 2:11-12, Romans 1:28-32, Heb 6:4-6, Rev 3:5/Rev 20:15, Rev 21:7-8, Isa 55:6, etc)

And how does that change the fact that God's love is unconditional of whether we love Him or not?

Your verses do not support that God ever stops reaching out to us. Maybe list them out or somethign.