"US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists"

[Loudmouth]

Even in states where they can "marry." They don't wait. They cannot wait. They will not wait. The whole reason for homosexuality is the roll in the hey. That is the start and the end of it.

Are you speaking from experience?

 

[Skaloop]

My parents were married in 1948 and their first child was a stillborn boy in 1951. I was born in 1953. My in-laws married in 1947. Their first child was in 1950. Both are still happily married. My parents started as Catholic and my wife's parents were/are Independent Fundamentalists. I married a 25 year old virgin when I was a 31 year old virgin. That was in 1985. We are still married.

Good for them. Although, just because they had their first children after they were married, that doesn't mean they didn't have sex beforehand.

My parents were married in 1975. I was born in 1976. My wife's parents were married in 1974. She was born in 1981. Both are still happily married. My parents are a mix of Protestant-by-name-only and atheist and my wife's parents are atheists. Both sets of parents had sex before marriage. I married a 22-year old non-virgin when I was a 26-year old non-virgin. That was in 2003. We are still married.

Now, of course, you had a bit of a head start, but nonetheless our stories are quite comparable. No kids out of wedlock. Happy marriages. "Waiting for marriage" doesn't seem to make any real difference between our two stories. And in fact, the situation with your marriage (both being virgins and all) is actually the abnormal one in our society.

 

[LittleNipper]

Are you speaking from experience?

I have met all kinds of people. The one thing that seems to be of the utmost importance to most people is sex. I also know that it was not easy for even me to remain steadfast. I felt that the one thing I could give to the girl I married was my virginity. All the money in the world can never re-establish it. It was well worth the effort. To the person whose only interest is sex, one's virginity is something to trample on and end. I do not see homosexuality as morally uplifting in that regard and I've had to put up my hand and say, "NO, I'm not interested."

 

[LittleNipper]

Good for them. Although, just because they had their first children after they were married, that doesn't mean they didn't have sex beforehand.

My parents were married in 1975. I was born in 1976. My wife's parents were married in 1974. She was born in 1981. Both are still happily married. My parents are a mix of Protestant-by-name-only and atheist and my wife's parents are atheists. Both sets of parents had sex before marriage. I married a 22-year old non-virgin when I was a 26-year old non-virgin. That was in 2003. We are still married.

Now, of course, you had a bit of a head start, but nonetheless our stories are quite comparable. No kids out of wedlock. Happy marriages. "Waiting for marriage" doesn't seem to make any real difference between our two stories. And in fact, the situation with your marriage (both being virgins and all) is actually the abnormal one in our society.

Abnormal does not always mean unhealthy. I'm glad you and your parents are happy. I hope it remains that way. I also hope that when the chips are down that you and yours are willing to fight to remain married and don't just throw over the table and run..... At the very least, GOD reminds me that I made a promise of better or for worse and until death do we part..... (I do not believe in murder either ;-)

 

[Naraoia]

My parents were married in 1948 and their first child was a stillborn boy in 1951. I was born in 1953. My in-laws married in 1947. Their first child was in 1950. Both are still happily married. My parents started as Catholic and my wife's parents were/are Independent Fundamentalists. I married a 25 year old virgin when I was a 31 year old virgin. That was in 1985. We are still married. When I was 19, I was approached by a man on behalf of another man seeking sexual favors for money. Had I not been a strong Christian, I likely would have taken him up on it. So don't speak to me as if I don't understand or as some outsider. I not perfect nor naive. I'm saved.

My parents have been married for what... 22 years now and they both had plenty of sex with plenty of people before. Ah, and neither of them are Christian, I'm not sure what my mother is, my father is definitely an atheist. My aunt and her husband's relationship started with rather frequent rolls in the hay at the age of 16. They are 42, have been married for more than half their lives and still faithfully together. What exactly was your point?

 

[Skaloop]

I felt that the one thing I could give to the girl I married was my virginity. All the money in the world can never re-establish it. It was well worth the effort. To the person whose only interest is sex, one's virginity is something to trample on and end.

You seem to be putting up quite a dichotomy. It seems that it has to be either "virgin-until-marriage" or "sex for sex's sake is all that matters." It's quite possible to have a meaningful, valuable relationship, in which sex plays a role, without being married, and without "trampling" one's virginity. I didn't give my wife my virginity. Nor did she give me hers. What we did (and do) give each other is unwavering and unmatched and unshared romantic love and support. It's the gift that keeps on giving, and that lifelong commitment and exchange between us is far more valuable than a one-time sexual experience.

 

[TheOutsider]

You seem to be putting up quite a dichotomy. It seems that it has to be either "virgin-until-marriage" or "sex for sex's sake is all that matters." It's quite possible to have a meaningful, valuable relationship, in which sex plays a role, without being married, and without "trampling" one's virginity. I didn't give my wife my virginity. Nor did she give me hers. What we did (and do) give each other is unwavering and unmatched and unshared romantic love and support. It's the gift that keeps on giving, and that lifelong commitment and exchange between us is far more valuable than a one-time sexual experience.

But.. but.. wedding rings are magical. That's why they have a 100% success rate!

 

[Skaloop]

Abnormal does not always mean unhealthy.

Same goes for homosexuality.

I'm glad you and your parents are happy. I hope it remains that way.

And I for you and yours.

I also hope that when the chips are down that you and yours are willing to fight to remain married and don't just throw over the table and run..... At the very least, GOD reminds me that I made a promise of better or for worse and until death do we part..... (I do not believe in murder either ;-)

I assure you that we are very committed. We've both seen some marriages end badly, and we're both ready to fight to stay together if need be. So far, we haven't had much in the way of marital woes, but the small difficulties we have faced we have gotten through together. We're also both fiercely monogamous, so neither of us worries about the other straying. Of the relationships of our friends around the same age, I don't think I'm letting too much bias through if I say that we are amongst the most happy with our relationship.

I made my promise, but I don't need god to remind me of it because she's the first thing I see in the morning and the last thing I see at night.

 

[LittleNipper]

My parents have been married for what... 22 years now and they both had plenty of sex with plenty of people before. Ah, and neither of them are Christian, I'm not sure what my mother is, my father is definitely an atheist. My aunt and her husband's relationship started with rather frequent rolls in the hay at the age of 16. They are 42, have been married for more than half their lives and still faithfully together. What exactly was your point?

This happens, but with a 50% divorce rate it's not common. I assume that they are not still rolling in the hay with assorted other people. And the reality is that they are heterosexual and not living with a significant "other." The 50 year old man seeking out the 28 year old stud at a bar in another town is not unheard of. It rarely amounts to a permanent commitment. My feeling is that Christianity can and does influence how people outside the faith think and behave towards others of various backgrounds. It took 2000 years, but Roman thinking concerning women, slaves, the poor, orphants, the sick and marriage have been affected. That does not mean that the pendulum can not swing back.... Homosexual behavior was very GREEK & ROMAN. It didn't amount to marriage, but a way of breaking in young boys. The Spartans married to sire future soldiers but lived mostly apart; men with men and women with women.

 

[LittleNipper]

Same goes for homosexuality.



And I for you and yours.



I assure you that we are very committed. We've both seen some marriages end badly, and we're both ready to fight to stay together if need be. So far, we haven't had much in the way of marital woes, but the small difficulties we have faced we have gotten through together. We're also both fiercely monogamous, so neither of us worries about the other straying. Of the relationships of our friends around the same age, I don't think I'm letting too much bias through if I say that we are amongst the most happy with our relationship.

I made my promise, but I don't need god to remind me of it because she's the first thing I see in the morning and the last thing I see at night.

Homosexuality is an abomination, unproductive, and very unhealthy. The body, soul and spirit become infected.

 

[LittleNipper]

You seem to be putting up quite a dichotomy. It seems that it has to be either "virgin-until-marriage" or "sex for sex's sake is all that matters." It's quite possible to have a meaningful, valuable relationship, in which sex plays a role, without being married, and without "trampling" one's virginity. I didn't give my wife my virginity. Nor did she give me hers. What we did (and do) give each other is unwavering and unmatched and unshared romantic love and support. It's the gift that keeps on giving, and that lifelong commitment and exchange between us is far more valuable than a one-time sexual experience.

Unmatched how? Unwavering when? Unshared romance to whose standard?

 

[Loudmouth]

I have met all kinds of people. The one thing that seems to be of the utmost importance to most people is sex.

Then we have met very different people.

It seems to me that the people who are obsessed the most with sex are fundamentalists, just as those who are obsessed most with doughnuts are those on diets.

I do not see homosexuality as morally uplifting in that regard and I've had to put up my hand and say, "NO, I'm not interested."

Then don't do it. However, not everyone shares your opinion. Should they then be denied legal rights just because you disagree on moral grounds (even though it doesn't affect you).

 

[Vene]

Homosexuality is an abomination, unproductive, and very unhealthy. The body, soul and spirit become infected.

I would love for you to back this up with empirical evidence.

 

[Skaloop]

Homosexuality is an abomination,

In your eyes, perhaps.

unproductive,

Unreproductive, but other than that, no.

and very unhealthy.

Not inherently so.

The body, soul and spirit become infected.

Again, in your eyes, perhaps. I've had personal experience with gay couples that says wholeheartedly otherwise.

 

[mpok1519]

the words 'proof' and 'evidence' arent in the Bible.

lol jk

 

[Skaloop]

Unmatched how? Unwavering when? Unshared romance to whose standard?

Unmatched by any other relationship I have ever had, or likely will have.

Unwavering always. Since falling in love, we have never not loved each other.

Unshared in that our love (as far as it is unmatched, from above) for each other is of a romantic sort (as opposed to the love of family or good friends) that we share only with each other.

I felt my description was rather innocuous. I'm surprised you take issue with it. Is the love you have with your wife not similar?

 

[flatworm]

One major difference between homosexual sex and natural sex, is that the there have been many instances where the man and the woman waited until they were ceremonially united in order to consumate a marriage.

1. Certain groups have long lobbied to deny marriage to homosexuals and even force their relationships underground. You can hardly blame homosexuals for what you deny them.

2. Not everyone agrees that abstinence before marriage is a good idea.

3. 95% of people have had premarital sex by the age of 44. That's 97% of people who have ever had sex.

They in fact may even have married because each felt the other would make a wise parent for any children they might conceive together.

As if this were the only valid reason for marriage.

The woman may even see the man as the spiritual head of a family they maybe starting together.

Many people with very healthy marriages see no difference between the "spiritual" and the "imaginary". Considerable evidence suggests that this religious dimension is not necessarily conducive to healthy marriages.

This has never been true of homosexual relationships,

Nor need it be for their relationships to be healthy and worthy of public endorsement.

in that they are drawn together by eye attraction, sexual performance and through the total sensual "experience".

Are you:

1) Speaking as a homosexual with experience in many relationships;

2) Referencing some psychological research (citation required); or

3) Making this up?

They cannot conceive with each other (good father/mother material is out of the question). They are not liooking for spiritual fellowship.

Are you:

1) Speaking as a homosexual with experience in many relationships;

2) Referencing some psychological research (citation required); or

3) Making this up?

They seek only sexual fulfillment of a hunger that they themselves encourage.

Are you:

1) Speaking as a homosexual with experience in many relationships;

2) Referencing some psychological research (citation required); or

3) Making this up?

 

[flatworm]

Even in states where they can "marry." They don't wait. They cannot wait. They will not wait.

I have yet to see a coherent argument as to why they should wait. Remember, 95% of people have engaged in premarital sex by age 44. Don't act as if your hang-ups are normative because they clearly are not.

The whole reason for homosexuality is the roll in the hey. That is the start and the end of it.

Are you:

1) Speaking as a homosexual with experience in many relationships;

2) Referencing some psychological research (citation required); or

3) Making this up?

 

[flatworm]

I have met all kinds of people. The one thing that seems to be of the utmost importance to most people is sex.

Then you haven't met all kinds of people, or at least didn't get to know them.

I felt that the one thing I could give to the girl I married was my virginity.

I can't begin to tell you how sad that is.

All the money in the world can never re-establish it.

I can't imagine my girlfriend wanting to re-establish my virginity, were it even possible.

To the person whose only interest is sex,

Have you personally met any? I haven't. Not one. Perhaps you're making one of your bizarre hyperbolic oversimplifications again.

I do not see homosexuality as morally uplifting in that regard and I've had to put up my hand and say, "NO, I'm not interested."

I don't see your beliefs re: homosexuality morally uplifting in any regard. Should we ban them?

 

[flatworm]

This happens, but with a 50% divorce rate it's not common.

Christian conservatives have no high horse to sit on when it comes to divorce.

I assume that they are not still rolling in the hay with assorted other people.

Funny how you'll make that assumption about heterosexual couples, but make the opposite about homosexuals.

And the reality is that they are heterosexual and not living with a significant "other."

"Significant other" is generally understood to mean a long-term conjugal partner of either sex.

The 50 year old man seeking out the 28 year old stud at a bar in another town is not unheard of.

Neither is the 50 year-old man seeking out the 28 year-old woman. Does the phrase "trophy wife" ring a bell? How about "arm candy"?

It rarely amounts to a permanent commitment.

1. See above example.

2. You don't suppose this might have anything to do with people like you working to deny their relationships recognition and basically make their lives hell, do you?

My feeling is that Christianity can and does influence how people outside the faith think and behave towards others of various backgrounds. It took 2000 years, but Roman thinking concerning women, slaves, the poor, orphants, the sick and marriage have been affected.

Did you think Christianity is the driving force behind that?

That does not mean that the pendulum can not swing back.... Homosexual behavior was very GREEK & ROMAN. It didn't amount to marriage, but a way of breaking in young boys.

More of a way of preserving the virginity of girls until marriage, since women could still be treated as commodities back then, complete with a freshness seal. The only other way of preserving female virginity, historically, has been to divide women into the "marriageable" class and the "disposable" class. Higher-class girls had to remain virgins (or else keep it secret) but the boys could go sow their wild oats with the harlots, the outcasts, the servant girls, what have you. Everyone would then revile said harlots and outcasts so no one cared what became of them. You can still see this dynamic in action today.

The Spartans married to sire future soldiers but lived mostly apart; men with men and women with women.

Your ideal society, huh?