Upon this rock

[Meowzltov]

I do use the proper name. The Roman Church, one body of the Catholic Church.

Are you referring to the diocese of Rome? The latin rite? I'm looking for some excuse for you to say Roman Church.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

Thank you for the quotes!!!! I truly appreciate them.

By time of the Reformation, the Catholic church was simply called the Catholic church, or simply, the Church. It was not until the rebellion of Henry VIII that the word Roman began to be added, as a way of distingishing the Catholic church from the Church of England, which was still very Catholic. When referring to the "Roman" Catholic Church, this was said with great derision. It remained a term of ridicule for many years.

Over time, it lost its stigma, and eventually came to be used even by Catholics of the latin rite.

However, when used by others, Catholics often cannot help but wonder if the old mockery is there behind the term (and sometimes it certainly is). It is therefore best for non-Catholics to stick to the proper name of our Church: the Catholic Church.

I'll stick to how the ECF's referred to your Church and how we refer to your Church based on us being just as much the Catholic Church.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

Are you referring to the diocese of Rome? The latin rite? I'm looking for some excuse for you to say Roman Church.

Because your Church isn't *the* Catholic Church. We are all the Catholic Church. You follow the Church in Rome, hence the Roman Church.

My Church is Catholic, but we are also the Missouri Synod.

 

[Meowzltov]

Because your Church isn't *the* Catholic Church. We are all the Catholic Church. You follow the Church in Rome, hence the Roman Church.

My Church is Catholic, but we are also the Missouri Synod.

No, you are the catholic church with a small c. You are catholic with a small c.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

No, you are the catholic church with a small c. You are catholic with a small c.

That's one opinion. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Albion]

Thank you for the quotes!!!! I truly appreciate them.

By time of the Reformation, the Catholic church was simply called the Catholic church, or simply, the Church. It was not until the rebellion of Henry VIII that the word Roman began to be added, as a way of distingishing the Catholic church from the Church of England, which was still very Catholic. When referring to the "Roman" Catholic Church, this was said with great derision. It remained a term of ridicule for many years.

Over time, it lost its stigma, and eventually came to be used even by Catholics of the latin rite.

However, when used by others, Catholics often cannot help but wonder if the old mockery is there behind the term (and sometimes it certainly is). It is therefore best for non-Catholics to stick to the proper name of our Church: the Catholic Church.

You're giving us the "party line" there, but the truth is that "Romish" and "Romanist" might be derisive...and "Roman" slightly so (it's much more often used by Lutherans than by Anglicans, BTW). But since Roman Catholic parishes put "Roman Catholic" on their own signboards out in front of the churches, I consider it disingenuous to be pouting over the usage by other people.

Incidentally, the "Anglican" church (which does not have that word in its official name) is the Catholic Church in England--by law. So it is apparent that there needs to be some way of referring to the Church of Rome that separated from it in 1570 (or was it 1571?).

 

[Meowzltov]

Incidentally, the "Anglican" church (which does not have that word in its official name) is the Catholic Church in England--by law.

I couldn't find anything online to support your claim. The following was one of the first things to come up on google:
"The Catholic Church in England and Wales is part of the worldwide Roman Catholic Church in full communion with the Pope." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_England_and_Wales

 

[Albion]

I couldn't find anything online to support your claim. The following was one of the first things to come up on google:
"The Catholic Church in England and Wales is part of the worldwide Roman Catholic Church in full communion with the Pope."

That's not a statement about the legalities of the matter. Whoever wrote that--and it's most likely a Roman Catholic--merely meant to say that the English chapels that are under the jurisdiction of the Pope are part of the same church that normally is known as the Roman Catholic Church the world over. That's all.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The proper, i.e. legal, name of your church is a longer term and includes the word "Roman."

Proof? I mean from a legitimate legal source?

 

[Standing Up]

Why? Do you have quotes where Augustine referred to the Catholic church as the "Roman church"?? I'd be interested in seeing your quotes with their sources.

-Augustine-
I know that I have published my opinion on this question in my brief writings against Ruffinus, in reply to a treatise addressed by him to Anastasius, of holy memory, bishop of the Roman Church, in which, while attempting to impose upon the simplicity of his readers by a slippery and artful, yet withal foolish confession, he exposed to contempt his own faith, or, rather, his own perfidy.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.CLXV.html

Point is it was the Roman Church who used the defining terminology to distinguish itself from "the church at XYZ", which was the original nomenclature.

Today, however, in her continuing efforts, she now wants to be known as the Catholic Church.

 

[Meowzltov]

Today, however, in her continuing efforts, she now wants to be known as the Catholic Church.

Quite true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You're giving us the "party line" there, but the truth is that "Romish" and "Romanist" might be derisive...and "Roman" slightly so (it's much more often used by Lutherans than by Anglicans, BTW). But since Roman Catholic parishes put "Roman Catholic" on their own signboards out in front of the churches, I consider it disingenuous to be pouting over the usage by other people.

Even if they all did, that doesn't make it right. There are parishes that have their own recipe for communion wafers, too, but it's wrong. There are lots of things that people do wrong in the name of the Catholic Church, which are allowed to stand, many times because it would be too costly to change it.

Incidentally, the "Anglican" church (which does not have that word in its official name) is the Catholic Church in England--by law. So it is apparent that there needs to be some way of referring to the Church of Rome that separated from it in 1570 (or was it 1571?).

What do you call the "Catholic Church in England" in America, though? (maybe not so) minor point, it was the Catholic Church of England which separated from the Catholic Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

-Augustine-
I know that I have published my opinion on this question in my brief writings against Ruffinus, in reply to a treatise addressed by him to Anastasius, of holy memory, bishop of the Roman Church, in which, while attempting to impose upon the simplicity of his readers by a slippery and artful, yet withal foolish confession, he exposed to contempt his own faith, or, rather, his own perfidy.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.CLXV.html

Refers to the diocese of Rome.

Point is it was the Roman Church who used the defining terminology to distinguish itself from "the church at XYZ", which was the original nomenclature.

Today, however, in her continuing efforts, she now wants to be known as the Catholic Church.

We are the Catholic Church, whether we live in the Church of New York City, the Church of Paris, or the Church of Istanbul.

 

[Standing Up]

Refers to the diocese of Rome.

You're not really part of the conversation because if you were, you'd understand that centuries ago RC referred to itself as the Roman Church. Your today's idea of a "diocese of Rome" never entered their thoughts.

 

[Meowzltov]

Anastasius, of holy memory, bishop of the Roman Church

It's speaking of the bishop of the diocese of Rome.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You're not really part of the conversation because if you were, you'd understand that centuries ago RC referred to itself as the Roman Church. Your today's idea of a "diocese of Rome" never entered their thoughts.

Thanks for trying to marginalize me. Roman Church is the Catholic Church of Rome, which is confined to the diocese of Rome. The Catholic Church, which is headquartered in the Vatican, is not in Rome.

There is a difference between your use of "Roman Church" and the ECF's use of "Roman Church." Quite a big one.

 

[Standing Up]

Thanks for trying to marginalize me. Roman Church is the Catholic Church of Rome, which is confined to the diocese of Rome. The Catholic Church, which is headquartered in the Vatican, is not in Rome.

There is a difference between your use of "Roman Church" and the ECF's use of "Roman Church." Quite a big one.

Actually, I'm trying to help clarify. The Roman Church was the (name of the) church of that day. Just like the Catholic Church is trying today to be the same thing. A rose by any other name...

Point is, today, she doesn't like "Roman Church", but back then, to be anything else was anathema to her.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually, I'm trying to help clarify. The Roman Church was the (name of the) church of that day. Just like the Catholic Church is trying today to be the same thing. A rose by any other name...

It was the name of the diocese. Not the Catholic Church.

Point is, today, she doesn't like "Roman Church", but back then, to be anything else was anathema to her.

doesn't like it because it became a slur after the reformation, which is understandable, don't you think. Stop mixing up the Catholic Church with the Diocese of Rome of the Catholic Church.

 

[Meowzltov]

Actually, I'm trying to help clarify. The Roman Church was the (name of the) church of that day. Just like the Catholic Church is trying today to be the same thing. A rose by any other name...

What he was trying to say is that the Roman Church referred to by the ECF is specifically the church at Rome, aka the Church to which Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans. It is part of the Catholic church, or "the Church" as the ECF would say, but the Church was much, much larger than just the Roman Church.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

You're not going to force anyone to refer to you as the sole universal Church anytime soon, so...