Upon this rock

[Albion]

Be nice to your EO and OO and P and A friends.

More to the point of the thread. Anyone has yet to show that anyone prior to Tertullian's time c200ad understood Mt. 16:18 in any way, except as Christ is the rock.

So succinct, yet so true. And that includes the bishops of Rome themselves. So if they didn't think they were popes, it is folly to try to argue that everyone else did!

 

[Standing Up]

So succinct, yet so true. And that includes the bishops of Rome themselves. So if they didn't think they were popes, it is folly to try to argue that everyone else did!

To be fair to RC, there were "popes of the first degree" who thought they were the apple of God's eye, like some who have come much later, very early on, like Popes Anicetus, Victor and Honorius. Otherwise, the point is well made at the first by Tertullian; that is, Rome usurped. No one but Rome thought the rock was their bishop alone.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

The Bible says that Christ is the One Foundation. The Bible also says the Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. It also says the Church is built on Simon Rock.

By that logic, it also says that the same Simon is satan.
"Oh, but that'z like tolly diffrentz 'n stuffz"....

 

[Meowzltov]

The Bible says that Christ is the One Foundation. The Bible also says the Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. It also says the Church is built on Simon Rock.

Which just goes to show you that the Bible can use a multiplicity of metaphors from book to book and chapter to chapter.

 

[Meowzltov]

When Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan" he was speaking to Satan, not to Peter. He addressed Peter, because at that moment Satan was speaking through Peter.

 

[Meowzltov]

The fact that the Roman church claims to be identical to the Church Catholic is irrelevant.

I don't know if you are aware of it, but it is rude to refer to the Catholic church as "the Roman church." We are simply "the Catholic Church."

 

[Albion]

When Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan" he was speaking to Satan, not to Peter.

Wow. That's a novel one.

Is there any theologian or linguist who agrees with you on that?

 

[Meowzltov]

Wow. That's a novel one.

Really? Do you actually think Peter is Satan?

 

[Standing Up]

I don't know if you are aware of it, but it is rude to refer to the Catholic church as "the Roman church." We are simply "the Catholic Church."

Why? Once upon a time she was proud of her identity. See Augustine, Gregory the Great, Ambrose, and others.

 

[Albion]

Really? Do you actually think Peter is Satan?

If I did, you'd be the first to know.

Now, please return to ordinary discussion and spare us the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" tactics.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Fuggedddabbbboooutit.

No. What you call "the Catholic Church" is just one part of the Church Catholic.



According to you.



So, first you say the Church is build on Peter - now you say that the Church is build on Christ (which I would agree with). Which is it?
Also: If this is the case, then your church is build on satan, because Jesus says "Get the behind me, satan" to the same guy he says: "Upon this rock...".
If one is to be identified with Peter, then the other is as well. There is no room in the text for the convenient mental gymnastics that you use to pretend like He's suddenly talking to someone else. He isn't.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why? Once upon a time she was proud of her identity. See Augustine, Gregory the Great, Ambrose, and others.

The diocese of Rome is one Church of the Catholic Church, which is under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome, which Augustine, Ambrose, and Gregory, before he was Pope, held deference to. It's like the Church at New York, the Church at Paris, the Church at Antioch. All of which defer to the Church at Rome because the Pope is the leader there.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Really? Do you actually think Peter is Satan?

It just shows that Jesus sees the natural self as being one with satan. Christ perceived that it wasn't Peter but Satan who was frustrating Him from taking the cross, because the natural self is not willing to take up the cross. The words that follow prove this in the text....

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind onGod’s interests, but man’s.”
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
.

Matt 4:
10 Then Jesus said to him, Go away, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.''
1 Chron 21:
1 And Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

I don't know if you are aware of it, but it is rude to refer to the Catholic church as "the Roman church." We are simply "the Catholic Church."

We, as well, are the Catholic Church, so it's perfectly acceptable to identify the Roman Church as just that for clarification. I'm sure it's now rude to call Bruce Jenner "he" or "Bruce," but the facts remain the same, despite what he or anyone else wants to believe.

 

[Meowzltov]

Why? Once upon a time she was proud of her identity. See Augustine, Gregory the Great, Ambrose, and others.

Why? Do you have quotes where Augustine referred to the Catholic church as the "Roman church"?? I'd be interested in seeing your quotes with their sources.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

Why? Do you have quotes where Augustine referred to the Catholic church as the "Roman church"?? I'd be interested in seeing your quotes with their sources.

The Church of Rome and the Church at Rome seems to be pretty common language of the ECF's.

http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/ecfpapacy.htm

 

[Meowzltov]

We, as well, are the Catholic Church, so it's perfectly acceptable to identify the Roman Church as just that for clarification. I'm sure it's now rude to call Bruce Jenner "he" or "Bruce," but the facts remain the same, despite what he or anyone else wants to believe.

no, you are the catholic church with a small c. there is no reason to not use the proper name of my church.

 

[Breaking Enigma]

no, you are the catholic church with a small c. there is no reason to not use the proper name of my church.

I do use the proper name. The Roman Church, one body of the Catholic Church.

 

[Albion]

no, you are the catholic church with a small c. there is no reason to not use the proper name of my church.

The proper, i.e. legal, name of your church is a longer term and includes the word "Roman."

 

[Meowzltov]

The Church of Rome and the Church at Rome seems to be pretty common language of the ECF's.

http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/ecfpapacy.htm

Thank you for the quotes!!!! I truly appreciate them.

By time of the Reformation, the Catholic church was simply called the Catholic church, or simply, the Church. It was not until the rebellion of Henry VIII that the word Roman began to be added, as a way of distingishing the Catholic church from the Church of England, which was still very Catholic. When referring to the "Roman" Catholic Church, this was said with great derision. It remained a term of ridicule for many years.

Over time, it lost its stigma, and eventually came to be used even by Catholics of the latin rite.

However, when used by others, Catholics often cannot help but wonder if the old mockery is there behind the term (and sometimes it certainly is). It is therefore best for non-Catholics to stick to the proper name of our Church: the Catholic Church.