• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Updating The Theory of the Earth

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
On the other hand, I have heard that mainstream scientists have refused to accept actual unadjusted carbon dating of dinosaur soft tissues to between 25,000 and 40,000 years because "everyone knows the dinosaurs dies out 65 million years ago".

Then you need to listen to the actual scientists, because that is not the reason they give. First, it is highly doubtful that they are even measuring organic carbon. Second, there is strong evidence for contamination in these samples.

I don't remember exactly what the creationist arguments against the ice layers going back so many years were -- something like a single year could have multiple layers -- but it wasn't quite the outright refusal to accept that they received in the dinosaur soft tissue case.

The only refusal is the refusal on the part of creationists that soft tissue can be preserved for 65 million years.

In any case, I still think the weight of evidence is for a young earth,

Think what you want. The reality of the situation is just the opposite.

Notice that you didn't deal with the evidence that has been presented. That calibration curve is a composite of several lines of evidence: tree rings, lake varves, ice layers, and speleothems. They all agree with each other. How can you have all of these independent lines of evidence produced by completely different mechanisms all produce consilient data? You haven't explained it. Until you do, the weight of the evidence from carbon dating contradicts a young Earth, and a global flood while we are at it.

and so to be consistent, I wouldn't be able to accept air samples from what I believe are post-flood layers as being pre-flood.

You don't get to reject evidence because of beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Nice to hear from you again. You say "I'd like to see the results of C14 testing of soft tissue that dates them at 25,000-40,000 years, because THAT would be headlines globally." But then you say "The only references that I can find to these dates are from either young earth creationist sites or conspiracy theory sites (and that makes for a Venn diagram that has a lot of overlap)."

As to impurities, sure that could be a problem with dating, though I am suspicious it is really just an excuse not to bother with the results. Do you know of any mainstream scientist who would be willing to do C14 testing on dinosaur soft tissue? Or better yet, do it collaboratively with a young earth creationist? Until that happens, I think the mainstream scientists together with the mainstream media will suppress any global headlines about comparatively recent dinosaur deaths. What do you think?

Why are you suppressing the results of radiometric dating of the K/T boundary?
 
Upvote 0

Paulos23

Never tell me the odds!
Mar 23, 2005
8,423
4,781
Washington State
✟367,754.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Velikovsky's ideas about orbital mechanics are ludicrous.

Wait a minute. Immanuel Velikovsky? The one Carl Sagan debunked on the idea of where Venus came from?

Why would anyone go to that old watering hole? It is all dried up already.
 
Upvote 0

Paulos23

Never tell me the odds!
Mar 23, 2005
8,423
4,781
Washington State
✟367,754.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then you need to listen to the actual scientists, because that is not the reason they give. First, it is highly doubtful that they are even measuring organic carbon. Second, there is strong evidence for contamination in these samples.

Following is from a website speaking about the soft tissue. I would be pleased if some of the "actual scientists" you refer to would examine the evidence for themselves, either on their own or better yet jointly with those who have already done the work.

Carbon-14-dated dinosaur bones are less than 40,000 years old

bar007_blue.gif


carbon-14 dating dinosaur bones carbon dated dinosaur fossils
rococo_hr.gif
date c-14 dinosaur fossil bones by c14 dinosaur bones fossils

Researchers have found a reason for the puzzling survival of soft tissue and collagen in dinosaur bones - the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old.

Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS).

Since dinosaurs are thought to be over 65 million years old, the news is stunning - and more than some can tolerate. After the AOGS-AGU conference in Singapore, the abstract was removed from the conference website by two chairmen because they could not accept the findings.Unwilling to challenge the data openly, they erased the report from public view without a word to the authors. When the authors inquired, they received this letter:

Reject.jpg


Reject5.jpg


They did not look at the data and they never spoke with the researchers. They did not like the test results, so they censored them.

Carbon-14 is considered to be a highly reliable dating technique. It's accuracy has been verified by using C-14 to date artifacts whose age is known historically. The fluctuation of the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere over time adds a small uncertainty, but contamination by "modern carbon" such as decayed organic matter from soils poses a greater possibility for error.

Dr. Thomas Seiler, a physicist from Germany, gave the presentation in Singapore. He said that his team and the laboratories they employed took special care to avoid contamination. That included protecting the samples, avoiding cracked areas in the bones, and meticulous pre-cleaning of the samples with chemicals to remove possible contaminants. Knowing that small concentrations of collagen can attract contamination, they compared precision Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) tests of collagen and bioapatite (hard carbonate bone mineral) with conventional counting methods of large bone fragments from the same dinosaurs. "Comparing such different molecules as minerals and organics from the same bone region, we obtained concordant C-14 results which were well below the upper limits of C-14 dating. These, together with many other remarkable concordances between samples from different fossils, geographic regions and stratigraphic positions make random contamination as origin of the C-14 unlikely".

The theoretical limit for C-14 dating is 100,000 years using AMS, but for practical purposes it is 45,000 to 55,000 years. The half-life of C-14 is 5730 years. If dinosaur bones are 65 million years old, there should not be one atom of C-14 left in them.

Many dinosaur bones are not petrified. Dr. Mary Schweitzer, associate professor of marine, earth, and atmospheric sciences at North Carolina State University, surprised scientists in 2005 when she reported finding soft tissue in dinosaur bones. She started a firestorm of controversy in 2007 and 2008 when she reported that she had sequenced proteins in the dinosaur bone.Critics charged that the findings were mistaken or that what she called soft tissue was really biofilm produced by bacteria that had entered from outside the bone. Schweitzer answered the challenge by testing with antibodies. Her report in 2009 confirmed the presence of collagen and other proteins that bacteria do not make. In 2011, a Swedish team found soft tissue and biomolecules in the bones of another creature from the time of the dinosaurs, a Mosasaur, which was a giant lizard that swam in shallow ocean waters. Schweitzer herself wonders why these materials are preserved when all the models say they should be degraded. That is, if they really are over 65 million years old, as the conventional wisdom says.

Dinosaur bones with Carbon-14 dates in the range of 22,000 to 39,000 years before present, combined with the discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones, indicate that something is indeed wrong with the conventional wisdom about dinosaurs.

However, it has been hard to reach the public with the information. Despite being simple test results without any interpretation, they were blocked from presentation in conference proceedings by the 2009 North American Paleontological Convention, the American Geophysical Union in 2011 and 2012, the Geological Society of America in 2011 and 2012, and by the editors of various scientific journals. Fortunately, there is the internet.





The only refusal is the refusal on the part of creationists that soft tissue can be preserved for 65 million years.

Are you saying Smithsonian is creationist? This is what their May 2006 magazine said:
"It was big news indeed last year when Schweitzer announced she had discovered blood vessels and structures that looked like whole cells inside that T. rex bone—the first observation of its kind. The finding amazed colleagues, who had never imagined that even a trace of still-soft dinosaur tissue could survive. After all, as any textbook will tell you, when an animal dies, soft tissues such as blood vessels, muscle and skin decay and disappear over time, while hard tissues like bone may gradually acquire minerals from the environment and become fossils."


Think what you want. The reality of the situation is just the opposite.

Based on the above two answers, doesn't it look more like the mainstream scientists than the creationists are the ones not willing to deal with reality?

Notice that you didn't deal with the evidence that has been presented. That calibration curve is a composite of several lines of evidence: tree rings, lake varves, ice layers, and speleothems. They all agree with each other. How can you have all of these independent lines of evidence produced by completely different mechanisms all produce consilient data? You haven't explained it. Until you do, the weight of the evidence from carbon dating contradicts a young Earth, and a global flood while we are at it.

If dinosaurs were still really alive less than 40,000 years ago, then the big Yucatan meteorite that extinguished them can't have been 65 million years ago. Moreover, ice layers and tree rings can be multiple in a single year.

Mt. St. Helens is a very small taste of the unprecedented changes that could be caused by super volcanoes, asteroid impacts, and yes, a global flood. There in fact has been some disagreement between the original carbon dating and tree rings, and carbon dating was adjusted to account for it, as I am sure you know. I believe that small adjustment reflected events after whatever really caused most of the dinosaur fossils. If a small adjustment was needed then, how can you be sure a much larger adjustment wouldn't be needed following a truly massive cataclysm?

You don't get to reject evidence because of beliefs.

Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue under 40,000 years old is not because of a belief?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue under 40,000 years old is not because of a belief?

Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue over 65 million years old is not because of a belief?

All you have is the empty assertion that soft tissue can't be preserved over 65 million years old. The dinosaur bones themselves are found in very well dated sediments in the Hell's Creek formation (if memory serves).

[added in later edit]

"It is hard to imagine for anyone trained in the rigor of science that Wieland could offer as an apparent concession the notion that "Some dinosaur fossils could have formed in post-Flood local catastrophes." It is hard to imagine Wieland is serious when considering that by "post-Flood," he means that there are dinosur remains floating about that are less than 4000 years old. What is inconceivable is that Wieland is honestly ignorant that the dates associated with the age of these remains are not related to their condition. The age of the specificT. rex bone which was the principle database for Schweitzer et al is not based on either its macro- or microscopic appearance but of the age of the rock that it was found in, "... the base of the Hell Creek Formation, 8 m above the Fox Hills Sandstone, as an association of disarticulated elements." The appearance of soft tissue, hard tissue or no tissue has no bearing in the age of this material- organic or inorganic. What is the basis for these age determinations is the independent existence of geochemical "clocks" known as radiometric dating. Professional creationists and their prey simply reject radiometric dates, which has always seemed to me to be an odd logical contradiction, or in an anthropological term: cognitive dissonance. If these people are able to ignore geology, chemistry and physics, why do they even bother to lie about biology?"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/flesh.html

20_3radiometric-f3.jpg

http://ncse.com/rncse/20/3/radiometric-dating-does-work

Notice the measurements of tektites, biotite, and zircons in the Hell Creek formation in that figure. We have three different minerals measured by three different radiometric methods all producing the same date. The age of the fossils is not in question.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue over 65 million years old is not because of a belief?

No. My belief that the Bible is reliable historically as well as theologically does in fact influence my belief that dinosaurs did not die out 65 million years ago. However, I haven't completely abandoned the possibility that I may be wrong in accepting the young earth hypotheses. I am aware of other feasible Bible interpretations, both linguistic and scientific. For example, one guy, a Jewish astrophysicist, made a good case for old earth, based on relativity and the expansion of the earth: God's first day in his interpretation, was worth many billions of years. For an example of why I still believe in a young earth, see my answer to your next question.

All you have is the empty assertion that soft tissue can't be preserved over 65 million years old. The dinosaur bones themselves are found in very well dated sediments in the Hell's Creek formation (if memory serves).

The article I sent you before said, " the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old. Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS)." Is this the empty assertion you were referring to?



I don't asset soft tissue can't be preserved for 65 million years. The Smithsonian article and others assert that and I consider what they say. With God all things are possible. The article I sent you indicates there are many sites
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This thread title comes from Georges Cuvier's essay (book) translated into English in 1813 on the internet. It is very readable discussion by the guy who first discovered dinosaurs, although they were so named by one of his followers, Richard Owen. Both he and Owen disagreed with intraspecies evolution. Cuvier believed in multiple extinction events.

I am trying to cobble together an understanding of what extinction events would be compatible with young earth beliefs. My current (very tentative) hypothesis is that there may be four:
1. An early flood (book of Jasher),
2. Noah's flood between 3000-3300 BC, relying on the Septuagint, ("Permian-Triassic" extinction, supposedly 250M yrs ago?),
3. Flood from melting glaciers and resulting lakes (possibly reflected in Chinese myths about emperor Yu who tamed great floods about 2500BC),
4. Series of volcanic and meteoric events, including the tsunami that nearly wiped out the Minoans around 1550 BC ("Cretaceous", supposedly 66M yrs ago -- I'm thinking we still had dinosaurs around until then, as reflected in the book of Job and many temple inscriptions).

(I'm buying into the theory that the C12/C14 ratio has significantly changed over time, particularly at Noah's flood, but also with some of the other extinction events.)

If anyone who reads this knows of a similar theory of placing extinction events in a young earth format, or of knowledgable people who would be willing to talk with me about how best to develop such a theory, I would be grateful to hear about it.

(This is my first attempt at using this forum. I am a retired pension actuary who has been looking into this and related topics off and on for 24 years now.)

- ddubois at davidhdubois@sbcglobal.net


There is no good reason to seek a young earth theory. Some friend of the pope came up with
this idea, that the scriptures do not support. Even within the creation week there are fruiting trees.
My trees don't fruit till about the third year after planting.

How about you create a list of trees that bear fruit in 7 days?
Let's synce that list up with the creation account.
 
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sometimes good ideas come from unlikely sources. A wise man looks well into a matter. I have been thinking about creationism and its alternatives for 24 years, and have read the Bible 8 times, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Your approach (with fruit trees) that what we see today can be projected indefinitely into the past is call uniformitarianism and was largely popularized in the 1800s by Charles Lyell, who was a mentor to Charles Darwin. Earlier scientists (including Newton and Cuvier) and modern creationist scientists left room for catastrophes far beyond current experience. If you believe Jesus could turn water into wine, walk on water, and rise from the dead to sit at the right hand of the Father, what is so difficult with God bring time lapse photography to life? With God a thousand years can be as a day!
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sometimes good ideas come from unlikely sources. A wise man looks well into a matter. I have been thinking about creationism and its alternatives for 24 years, and have read the Bible 8 times, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Your approach (with fruit trees) that what we see today can be projected indefinitely into the past is call uniformitarianism and was largely popularized in the 1800s by Charles Lyell, who was a mentor to Charles Darwin. Earlier scientists (including Newton and Cuvier) and modern creationist scientists left room for catastrophes far beyond current experience. If you believe Jesus could turn water into wine, walk on water, and rise from the dead to sit at the right hand of the Father, what is so difficult with God bring time lapse photography to life? With God a thousand years can be as a day!

Well, sure.... if you allow for magic, then literally everything is possible, right?
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
The article I sent you before said, " the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old.

Carbon dating is an invalid method to date things older then a few 10.000 years. Only ignorant (or dishonest) people would do that.

But whatever, right? As long as you can pretend that it fits the stuff you already believe, who cares ha?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
The article I sent you before said, " the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old. Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS)." Is this the empty assertion you were referring to?

Carbon dating fossils that are millions of years old can not be shown to be "younger than we guessed". That's like using your bathroom scale to measure the weight of a truck, and using the highest number on the scale as proof the truck only weighs 350 lbs. The numbers you are giving are consistent with carbonate contamination, and measurements near the end of the scale for carbon dating.

Also, you need to explain why dinosaur bones are consistently found below igneous deposits that are 65 million years or older. You need to explain why we never see them above igneous deposits that are 10 or 5 million years old, or at the lower level of detection for that methodology.

I don't asset soft tissue can't be preserved for 65 million years. The Smithsonian article and others assert that and I consider what they say. With God all things are possible. The article I sent you indicates there are many sites

The bones under question are 65 million years old. We have the evidence.
 
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, sure.... if you allow for magic, then literally everything is possible, right?
That is true. I was replying from an evangelical Christian point of view, which I think would be inadmissible to atheists. If I was replying from a purely scientific point of view, I would have said something different, like -- according to the now accepted big bang theory, all matter got spontaneously created in 10^-37 seconds. During certain points of time in the past, we know that natural forces can be very much accelerated by unusual circumstances. Why couldn't the same be true of living forces?
 
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Carbon dating fossils that are millions of years old can not be shown to be "younger than we guessed". That's like using your bathroom scale to measure the weight of a truck, and using the highest number on the scale as proof the truck only weighs 350 lbs. The numbers you are giving are consistent with carbonate contamination, and measurements near the end of the scale for carbon dating.

Carbon dating is an invalid method to date things older then a few 10.000 years. Only ignorant (or dishonest) people would do that.

How can you say carbon dating is an invalid method to date things older than a few 10,000 years? The literature I've seen indicates it can go up past 40,000 years, and even higher with the new methods.

But whatever, right? As long as you can pretend that it fits the stuff you already believe, who cares ha?

It's true I am gratified when science presents evidence that conforms with my beliefs. I don't see you you can construe my quoting of scientific articles as pretension.

Also, you need to explain why dinosaur bones are consistently found below igneous deposits that are 65 million years or older. You need to explain why we never see them above igneous deposits that are 10 or 5 million years old, or at the lower level of detection for that methodology.

The igneous deposits over 65 million years old might be dated based on the dinosaurs, don't you think? In fact some of the dating of recent volcanic eruptions in questionable. For example, I have heard that Mt. Kilauea of Hawaii provides a radioisotope age of 21 million years although the actual rock is less than 200 years old.

The bones under question are 65 million years old. We have the evidence.

You should consider ALL the evidence.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
That is true. I was replying from an evangelical Christian point of view, which I think would be inadmissible to atheists.

Or non-christians in general...
Or, rather, non-fundy-christians in general.

Even the pope said the other day "god is not a magician".

If I was replying from a purely scientific point of view, I would have said something different, like -- according to the now accepted big bang theory, all matter got spontaneously created in 10^-37 seconds. During certain points of time in the past, we know that natural forces can be very much accelerated by unusual circumstances. Why couldn't the same be true of living forces?

Because evidence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr GS Hurd
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
You should consider ALL the evidence.

Invalid application of dating methods, is not evidence.
That's just invalid application of dating methods.

Like Loudmouths absolutely brilliant example (which I may borrow in the future if you don't mind LM - absolutely loved it :) )....

If you have a scale that can only measure upto 100 kg, then putting a 20-ton truck on it is not evidence that the truck only weighs 100 kg. It rather is only evidence that the one doing the measurement isn't that smart...
 
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Or non-christians in general...
Or, rather, non-fundy-christians in general.

Even the pope said the other day "god is not a magician".

I didn't know the Pope had said that -- thanks for pointing it out. I am in any case aware that most Christians would probably agree with him that Genesis need not be interpreted the way Young Earth Christians do. So I am in a minority, just like atheists in this country are in a minority. But wouldn't you agree that being in a minority doesn't necessarily make you wrong?

Because evidence.

At first I didn't realize that the following was part of your response, which I will reproduce below:
"Invalid application of dating methods, is not evidence.
That's just invalid application of dating methods.

Like Loudmouths absolutely brilliant example (which I may borrow in the future if you don't mind LM - absolutely loved it :) )....

If you have a scale that can only measure upto 100 kg, then putting a 20-ton truck on it is not evidence that the truck only weighs 100 kg. It rather is only evidence that the one doing the measurement isn't that smart..."

The statement that putting a 20-ton truck on a 100kg scale doesn't mean the truck weighs 100kg is certainly true, but doesn't seem to me to be describe well the soft tissue dinosaur age measurement I cited.

First of all, unlike regular scales which don't require a lot of assumptions, radiometric dating uses uniformitarian assumptions which can be questioned. Even mainstream chronologists have conceded that carbon dating has had to be modified slightly to synch up with tree ring dating in just the last 10,000 years. Wouldn't longer term dating, like Ur/Pb or K/Ar, likely require much greater modification, due to meteoric impacts and other events not appearing in recorded history?

But to continue with your scale analogy, if carbon 14 dating (5700 yr half-life) is the 100kg scale, then K/Ar dating (1.2b yr half life) would be a 20 million kg scale. The dinosaur bones would measure 50kg on the 100kg scale (22k to 39kg measured ages vs 50k to 75k accelerator mass spectrometry limit per Wikipedia article), and they would measure 150,000 kg on the 20 million kg scale. With the scales so out of synch, and the bigger scale so much more subject to modification, why wouldn't I trust the 100 kg scale?
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,636
7,172
✟341,595.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Ddubois, I get the feeling that you're labouring under a number of false assumptions about radiometric dating.

May I recommend two resources to you, one from a Chiristian, biblical literalist, old earth creationist website and the other from a counter-apologetics website.

A Christian perspective on radiometric dating (and as an addenum, A counter against the argument for accelerating rates of decay)
A counter-apologetic take on radiometric dating

Both of the radiometric dating pieces are written by PhD level scientists, one a physicist with a specality in planetary sciences, the other a geologist specalising in radiometric dating.

I hope you'll read them. They should clear up the misapprehensions you have about the rigor of radionucletide dating methods.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr GS Hurd
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
The statement that putting a 20-ton truck on a 100kg scale doesn't mean the truck weighs 100kg is certainly true, but doesn't seem to me to be describe well the soft tissue dinosaur age measurement I cited.

First of all, unlike regular scales which don't require a lot of assumptions, radiometric dating uses uniformitarian assumptions which can be questioned.

Anything can be questioned. But you need an actual valid reason to question things, especially when these things are supported by evidence.


Even mainstream chronologists have conceded that carbon dating has had to be modified slightly to synch up with tree ring dating in just the last 10,000 years. Wouldn't longer term dating, like Ur/Pb or K/Ar, likely require much greater modification, due to meteoric impacts and other events not appearing in recorded history?

Only if you can actually demonstrate that the rate of decay can be altered by such things.

But to continue with your scale analogy, if carbon 14 dating (5700 yr half-life) is the 100kg scale, then K/Ar dating (1.2b yr half life) would be a 20 million kg scale. The dinosaur bones would measure 50kg on the 100kg scale (22k to 39kg measured ages vs 50k to 75k accelerator mass spectrometry limit per Wikipedia article), and they would measure 150,000 kg on the 20 million kg scale. With the scales so out of synch, and the bigger scale so much more subject to modification, why wouldn't I trust the 100 kg scale?

Because the 100kg scale is known to not be appropriate.
And because the other large scales, that are valid, converge on the same answer.

So, again: because evidence.
 
Upvote 0

ddubois

Active Member
Aug 5, 2015
122
6
81
✟15,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ddubois, I get the feeling that you're labouring under a number of false assumptions about radiometric dating.

May I recommend two resources to you, one from a Chiristian, biblical literalist, old earth creationist website and the other from a counter-apologetics website.

A Christian perspective on radiometric dating (and as an addenum, A counter against the argument for accelerating rates of decay)
A counter-apologetic take on radiometric dating

Both of the radiometric dating pieces are written by PhD level scientists, one a physicist with a specality in planetary sciences, the other a geologist specalising in radiometric dating.

I hope you'll read them. They should clear up the misapprehensions you have about the rigor of radionucletide dating methods.
Feelings can be deceptive. For example, I had the feeling that, based on a lot of research, I had given sound answers.
I would appreciate it if you could put your finger on what I said that gave you the feeling that I was laboring under a number of false assumptions about radiometric dating. Even better would be to quote a source which you think is a good argument against what I have said.
 
Upvote 0