unsure...

[Thomas The Atheist]

reply to Andreha

that overwhelms you to the point of losing your will to live

not going to happen. and if this would happen (against all odds) God wouldnt be my way out, as I dont and probably wont ever believe in him.

I know you would think that I've flipped out if I had to say to you that I've personally seen Jesus Christ, and that I speak to God every day.

have you / do you then? please let me know if you get this
(if I dont get a reply in the next few days, ill PM you this as I appreciate the way you tend to talk to me

 

[Criada]

will do for sure



you know that this is as true as it is the other way around, right?
there are just as much christians who are 'close minded' aswel. they are afraid to even think there mightn't be a God as this would mean the downfall of everything they are thaught to believe in?
thaught, indeed, as many christians got their believe "hammered" in their heads when they were (and still are) children.

I know... that was one of the things that turned me off Christianity for a long time. If our faith can't stand up to thinking and questioning, then it isn't worth very much!

you dont have to worry, im not going to stop thinking / learning.

sincerely,
Thomas.

I am glad of that.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

For example, evolution does not teach about the origin of the universe nor does it teach about the beginning of life. Evolution is a theory regarding how the species came to be after the beginning by observable and scientific evidence. The thing is that it is still a theory and much is yet to be proven.

as it still has to be proven, there is alot of proove though...
and the process of evolution is the only logical way of explaining how life has come to be..

The ethics of Christianity is indeed defined by the revealed word of God in the scriptures, however, there are varies interpretations regarding issues like homosexuality, abortion, contraceptives, etc. For example, I am a Baptist and my church does not see condoms as evil but the Catholic Church does teach against contraceptives. These issues are secondary to the belief in the risen Christ.
The love of God that you briefly touched on is indeed a love of such magnitude that our finite minds can not fully grasp it. God sent His only son to die for our sins so that if we believe in Christ then we have the hope of salvation. Without this loving sacrifice we would not have had that hope. God will save those that he chooses and not any one of us can say that another person won't be saved. Can God save homosexuals? Yes, he can. Will He? No one knows.

please, spare me the "God's love" things. as I am not here to talk about things like that.
I am here to talk about more concrete things.

"can God save homosexuals"?
you're talking about it as if it were some kind of disease?
do you really think that?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

I know... that was one of the things that turned me off Christianity for a long time. If our faith can't stand up to thinking and questioning, then it isn't worth very much!


I am glad of that.

there are more things that turn me off christianity...
as:
there is no actual proof.
most christians are VERY close-minded and cant open their eyes for anything that doesnt literally sticks to the bible..
being so "naive" that God is here to help us.

just to name some of the things that turn me off christianity

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Thomas, may I ask you something? Are you just taking on the opinions of others at atheistic sites, or are you reaching conclusions after a lot of thought and deliberation?

Because acceding to the beliefs of others because they sound good is just another form of faith. Do you see what I mean?

I think some of the sites you've visited are almost addictive somehow, and it's very easy to be seduced, but you see a lot of "New Atheists", for example, regurgitating the exact words of Dawkins or Hitchens and you realise they don't actually have an opinion of their own... they're just parroting the rhetoric of someone else without actually considering the pros and cons of what they claim to believe.

We're all entitled to choose our own path... it really is God that has given us free will, and He allows us to choose to be away from Him if we so desire. But whatever you choose, choose it because you've analysed and genuinely considered, not because you saw someone say something that sounded cool on a site about why God won't heal amputees.

Take care

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Thomas, may I ask you something? Are you just taking on the opinions of others at atheistic sites, or are you reaching conclusions after a lot of thought and deliberation?

Because acceding to the beliefs of others because they sound good is just another form of faith. Do you see what I mean?

if this comforts you, I have genuinly thought about it myself.
Ive been checking out both atheistic and christian sites to help me "find a way". and in my opinion, atheism is "right"

the rhetoric of someone else without actually considering the pros and cons of what they claim to believe.

what are the pros and cons of the truth?
and I mean the truth based on logic and crystalclear thinking, and coming to conclude that there is no God..

We're all entitled to choose our own path... it really is God that has given us free will, and He allows us to choose to be away from Him if we so desire.

once again, I dont believe any of this nonsense, sorry.

But whatever you choose, choose it because you've analysed and genuinely considered, not because you saw someone say something that sounded cool on a site about why God won't heal amputees.

Take care

I already have chosen, and for the future yet to come, I will keep on considering, yes

sincerely, Thomas.

 

[Celticflower]

[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#008000[QUOTE]][/COLOR]
what are the pros and cons of the truth?
and I mean the truth based on logic and crystalclear thinking, and coming to conclude that there is no God..

So people of faith don't base anything on logic or crystal clear thinking?

once again, I dont believe any of this nonsense, sorry.

Faith in something or someone is nonsense, but believing something doesn't exist because it has never appeared to you is logical. Does anyone else see a trend here? I'm expecting the "you Christians are delusion idiots" line anytime now.

TU = you seem to see a major disconnect between faith and logic. Yet people of faith are often the most logical thinkers. And they are smart enough to admit that they will not be able to give you all the answers. Scientists tend to be reluctant on that point. They figure given enough time and enough theories and enough testing that they will have all the answers. But sometimes they are not asking the right questions. Instead of "how" maybe they should focus on "why". Logic and science and "crystal clear thinking" may give you some of the hows, but it will not give you the whys, the overarching reasons for everything that exists. But if you are happy with just the surface how, then fine. Be happy. But don't think that your brain is functioning at any higher a level than the brains of people with faith. It is truly insulting.

 

[ebia]

there are more things that turn me off christianity...
as:
there is no actual proof.

There's no actual proof of the underlying philosophies like modernism that demand actual proofs. The lens through which we view evidence can't, itself, be proved by evidence. The only reason athesist philosophies get away with this is that they avoid making the fundamentals of their epistimology explicit so it isn't exposed to the same rigour as they want to expose others.

most christians are VERY close-minded and cant open their eyes for anything that doesnt literally sticks to the bible..

Eh? Most of the world's Christians accept that not all of the bible is literal.

being so "naive" that God is here to help us.

The world is in a mess. Why wouldn't the creator God want to put that right?

 

[andreha]

reply to Andreha



not going to happen. and if this would happen (against all odds) God wouldnt be my way out, as I dont and probably wont ever believe in him.



have you / do you then? please let me know if you get this
(if I dont get a reply in the next few days, ill PM you this as I appreciate the way you tend to talk to me

Hey, Truely Unsure

Yes, I know it sounds a bit strange, but I've had those experiences, which changed me. As a child, I was attacked by demonic forces (my best way of explaining it, I suppose). The thing was that I had nobody to talk to about it. I didn't even have the words to try and explain it. I just stopped wanting to live anymore. This thing would come after me every single night, and terrify me. Then, one day, my 1st grade teacher told me about Jesus. My first thought was to ask Him - he wouldn't need fancy words, but help me. That same night, the same scary stuff happened, and I just asked Him to help. What happened after that will stay with me all the days of my life. I felt waves of energy rippling through my body, and an overflowing with joy came over me. The next moment, my soul left my body, and I was standing in an empty dark void. In front of me, I saw a figure standing, that had a brilliant light shine out of Him. The light wasn't natural, because one could look straight into it without getting one's eyes hurt. I felt this powerful passionate love and peace. As I stood there, speechless, I felt all my burdens disappear. Back then, I had no idea what was happening. Well, a long time afterwards, I realised what must have happened. And, honestly, those attacks have disappeared right then, 32 years ago.

Since then, I've stared hearing the voice of God, speaking to me. It is that which encouraged me through life, and kept me going - as I had a very lonely childhood.

Anyhow, I know this sounds like something out of a science fiction novel. I do usually hesitate to share this, as there have been fellow Christians who rebuked and rejected me because of this. They even told me I have devils inside me, or that I am under their control. It hurts. Sheesh.

Anyhow, I suppose the point I'd like to make is this. It sucks to be alone when life is getting too much to handle on your own. Sometimes, we just need a friend to talk to. Not someone who preaches at you. I know how *irritating* it can be when someone just insists on preaching to you, instead of just listening, and offering unconditional love. I'd like to reaffirm my promise, that I won't try to convert you. I'd just like to offer some ears that will listen to you, and offer encouragement - as that is something we all do need. Not preaching. When people hurt, they need love, not preaching. It's the love that heals, not the preaching. By now, Christians should know this...

Regards
Andre

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

So people of faith don't base anything on logic or crystal clear thinking?

nope, I didnt say "anything".
christians sure think logical, just not when it comes to religion...

Faith in something or someone is nonsense,

the only thing I find nonsense, is when you try to convert me by saying God and Jesus will embrace me with their eternal, endless love...
that they will save us, help us and comfort us...

this wasnt the right approach (for me)

if there might just exist a God, im sure its not the christian God / Jesus,
it would be an almighty power, not just some kind of imposter...
this God wouldnt want people to worship him / pray to him, as he just wouldnt care for the human race, as he would be "everything"...

I'm expecting the "you Christians are delusion idiots" line anytime now.

I dont like disappointing you but im not gonna say such a thing...

Instead of "how" maybe they should focus on "why". Logic and science and "crystal clear thinking" may give you some of the hows, but it will not give you the whys, the overarching reasons for everything that exists.

I dont believe there is a "why"

But if you are happy with just the surface how, then fine. Be happy. But don't think that your brain is functioning at any higher a level than the brains of people with faith. Its truely insulting.

if you really think of it this way, I feel sorry for you...
you are being misled, its a scam. nothing more, nothing less.

THE CHRISTIAN GOD / ANY OTHER EARTHLY GOD DOES NOT EXIST

I guess you're just gonna say the same I said, but just the other way around, as in:
"i pity you for living such a worthless, pathetic, superficial life..."

well, I'd rather live such a life, then believing in something fake

sincerely,
Thomas.

 

[Celticflower]

Truely Unsure is truly the most misnamed person here. I do not think he was ever truly unsure of what he did or didn't believe, not matter what he said in his OP.

Thankfully, God gave us the gift of freewill - meaning that we get to choose whether to believe of not. If TU chooses not to believe that is his right. I will not judge his life, I will not call it worthless or pathetic or superficial. I will just call it his.

I just wish he could show the same respect and not try to convince me that my life is based on a belief in something fake - especially since he has no proof to back up the claim. Just because you do not believe in something does not make it unreal. Many people still don't believe man walked on the moon or that Elvis is dead - doesn't change the facts.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

There's no actual proof of the underlying philosophies like modernism that demand actual proofs. The lens through which we view evidence can't, itself, be proved by evidence. The only reason athesist philosophies get away with this is that they avoid making the fundamentals of their epistimology explicit so it isn't exposed to the same rigour as they want to expose others.

what's modernism?

I see it this way: the philosophers get away with it, because its the truth.
the fundamentals of these studies are based on research.
not on more guessing / imagination

[quote
Eh? Most of the world's Christians accept that not all of the bible is literal.
[/quote]
ah, well that could be right. but if what you're saying is true, ive been having some bad luck with the christians i spoke to on the internet lol

The world is in a mess. Why wouldn't the creator God want to put that right?

you say it yourself. why doesnt he put it right? if he's real and legit, howcome he doesnt step up to help us?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Hey, Truely Unsure

Yes, I know it sounds a bit strange, but I've had those experiences, which changed me. As a child, I was attacked by demonic forces (my best way of explaining it, I suppose). The thing was that I had nobody to talk to about it. I didn't even have the words to try and explain it. I just stopped wanting to live anymore. This thing would come after me every single night, and terrify me. Then, one day, my 1st grade teacher told me about Jesus. My first thought was to ask Him - he wouldn't need fancy words, but help me. That same night, the same scary stuff happened, and I just asked Him to help. What happened after that will stay with me all the days of my life. I felt waves of energy rippling through my body, and an overflowing with joy came over me. The next moment, my soul left my body, and I was standing in an empty dark void. In front of me, I saw a figure standing, that had a brilliant light shine out of Him. The light wasn't natural, because one could look straight into it without getting one's eyes hurt. I felt this powerful passionate love and peace. As I stood there, speechless, I felt all my burdens disappear. Back then, I had no idea what was happening. Well, a long time afterwards, I realised what must have happened. And, honestly, those attacks have disappeared right then, 32 years ago.

Since then, I've stared hearing the voice of God, speaking to me. It is that which encouraged me through life, and kept me going - as I had a very lonely childhood.

Anyhow, I know this sounds like something out of a science fiction novel. I do usually hesitate to share this, as there have been fellow Christians who rebuked and rejected me because of this. They even told me I have devils inside me, or that I am under their control. It hurts. Sheesh.

Anyhow, I suppose the point I'd like to make is this. It sucks to be alone when life is getting too much to handle on your own. Sometimes, we just need a friend to talk to. Not someone who preaches at you. I know how *irritating* it can be when someone just insists on preaching to you, instead of just listening, and offering unconditional love. I'd like to reaffirm my promise, that I won't try to convert you. I'd just like to offer some ears that will listen to you, and offer encouragement - as that is something we all do need. Not preaching. When people hurt, they need love, not preaching. It's the love that heals, not the preaching. By now, Christians should know this...

Regards
Andre

Hey Andre, first of all thanks for your promise, I appreciate it.

second, I believe you when you talk about what has happened.
Im not judging you or anything, but I do have my opinion of it.
*the christians who told you you were possessed by devils are just mere idiots, dont pay attention to them.
*Im not calling you a lier, but I dont believe you really met God / Christ.
I dont know what happened. perhaps it was a real vivid dream based on the story of christianity you heared about in school. (dreams are often based on experiences / your thoughts right before you fall asleep)
thats my opinion, im not trying to convince you your meeting with God was imaginary, this is just what I think of it.
Ive got the same goal as you, im not here to preach, just to talk

when I ever get into some trouble, I'll find someone to talk to.
this wont be God. It will be a close friend / family member / someone as yourself

talk to you soon,
Thomas.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Truely Unsure is truly the most misnamed person here.

I couldnt agree more, If somehow I could change my username...

I do not think he was ever truly unsure of what he did or didn't believe, not matter what he said in his OP.

you mightn't believe me, but I really didnt know what to believe when I joined this forum.

and whats my OP?

Thankfully, God gave us the gift of freewill - meaning that we get to choose whether to believe of not. If TU chooses not to believe that is his right. I will not judge his life, I will not call it worthless or pathetic or superficial. I will just call it his.

I just wish he could show the same respect and not try to convince me that my life is based on a belief in something fake - especially since he has no proof to back up the claim. Just because you do not believe in something does not make it unreal. Many people still don't believe man walked on the moon or that Elvis is dead - doesn't change the facts.

I merely uttered my opinion
Im not trying to convince anyone to stop believing in Christ.
even above science and logic, I seek for peace / loving people all over the world.
If believing makes you happy / helps you be a good person, than im glad you're a christian

perhaps I didnt show the amount of respect I should have.
if I didn't, I apologise.
I just get a bit of frustrated when I see all these people fall for something that (in my eyes) clearly is fake...
hope you can forgive me

 

[ebia]

what's modernism?

I see it this way: the philosophers get away with it, because its the truth.
the fundamentals of these studies are based on research.
not on more guessing / imagination

Spoken like a true fundamentalist - unwilling to examine one's own epistemology. The underlying philosophy of science and the enlightenment cannot be the result of it's own conclusions - that would be circular. You can't establish them by research because you need them first to do the research. You can't examine a lens through itself.

Eh? Most of the world's Christians accept that not all of the bible is literal.

ah, well that could be right. but if what you're saying is true, ive been having some bad luck with the christians i spoke to on the internet lol

The internet is not reflective of Christianity as a whole.

you say it yourself. why doesnt he put it right? if he's real and legit, howcome he doesnt step up to help us?

He has. The structure of the bible can be looked at as a play in 5 acts:

• Genesis 1-2: how God intended the world to be
• Genesis 3-5: what went wrong including...
  • Genesis 6-9 (Noah): the explanation of why evil cannot be simply wiped out without also wiping out what is good about creation
• Genesis 12-Malachi: The beginning of God's plan to put the world right through Israel culminating in...
• The Gospels: The climax of God putting creation right in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus
• Act-Revelation: The beginning of the story of the church called to live between that action of putting the world right and that coming to fruition
• Revelation 21-22, 1 Cor 15, bits of Isaiah: Glimpses of what it will look like when that rescuing is consumated.

You ask why God has not acted - the bible is exactly the story of how he has acted, is acting, and will act.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Spoken like a true fundamentalist - unwilling to examine one's own epistemology. The underlying philosophy of science and the enlightenment cannot be the result of it's own conclusions - that would be circular. You can't establish them by research because you need them first to do the research. You can't examine a lens through itself.

whats modernism and epistemology?

I dont really get it... isnt just the urge of trying to prove / disprove things enough as the philosophy of science?

The internet is not reflective of Christianity as a whole.

I figured, yeah

He has. The structure of the bible can be looked at as a play in 5 acts:

• Genesis 1-2: how God intended the world to be
• Genesis 3-5: what went wrong including...
  • Genesis 6-9 (Noah): the explanation of why evil cannot be simply wiped out without also wiping out what is good about creation
• Genesis 12-Malachi: The beginning of God's plan to put the world right through Israel culminating in...
• The Gospels: The climax of God putting creation right in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus
• Act-Revelation: The beginning of the story of the church called to live between that action of putting the world right and that coming to fruition
• Revelation 21-22, 1 Cor 15, bits of Isaiah: Glimpses of what it will look like when that rescuing is consumated.

You ask why God has not acted - the bible is exactly the story of how he has acted and is acting.

once again, I dont believe the bible.
its nothing conrete, its a book composed of all kinds of letters / stories wich were probably copied like 50times by people who didnt even live in the same century...

howmuch of his "help", according to bible, has really been noticed?
I mean, how much of it is "concrete", as in something that really is here, helping us to solve the mess on this planet?
not much, if you'd ask me...

 

[ebia]

whats modernism

very roughly speaking a label for the 19th and 20th century western world's peculiar way of thinking about things

and epistemology?

The art of thinking about knowledge and how we know things.

Unless you do some reading up on these things you are buying into one worldview without examining it, and complaining that other's have not substantiated their worldview according the critieria of the one you have bought.

I dont really get it... isnt just the urge of trying to prove / disprove things enough as the philosophy of science?

Any house has a foundation. Modern science sits on a foundation of philosophy, assumptions, ways of looking at things, that go back to the enlightenment. Those assumptions are rarely made explicit in the modern world, let alone put up for examination, yet they are they foundations that post-enlightenment reasoning and more specifically science rely on, not the results of such reasoning.

You've inherited one lens for looking at the world, assumed that's a good lens, and used it to look at our lens but not at itself.

I figured, yeah

Good. Keep that in mind always.

once again, I dont believe the bible.
its nothing conrete, its a book composed of all kinds of letters / stories wich were probably copied like 50times by people who didnt even live in the same century...

Much of it we know is quite remarkably accurate to the ancient manuscripts. The key event on which it all hangs or falls (the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth) is, in fact, as well attested as virtually any other event in 1st century history. It's only rejected because of an assumption of naturalism. 'It cannot have happened therefore it did not happen, therefore any other explanation for the data is better than "it did happen"'

But right now I'm not demanding that you suddenly believe the bible, but that you realise that your own lens for viewing the world is as unproven as any other.

Our ways of looking at the world aren't founded on proof, but on attempts to make sense of the stories we hear and experience.

howmuch of his "help", according to bible, has really been noticed?

By the people of God, a lot.

I mean, how much of it is "concrete", as in something that really is here, helping us to solve the mess on this planet?
not much, if you'd ask me...

But that's the whole point - we are not (yet) at the stage where it should be blatantly obvious (except in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth and in the lives of those who give their allegience to his Kingdom).

Just because the effects are not yet obvious does not mean that nothing has yet happened.

 

[andreha]

Hey Andre, first of all thanks for your promise, I appreciate it.

second, I believe you when you talk about what has happened.
Im not judging you or anything, but I do have my opinion of it.
*the christians who told you you were possessed by devils are just mere idiots, dont pay attention to them.
*Im not calling you a lier, but I dont believe you really met God / Christ.
I dont know what happened. perhaps it was a real vivid dream based on the story of christianity you heared about in school. (dreams are often based on experiences / your thoughts right before you fall asleep)
thats my opinion, im not trying to convince you your meeting with God was imaginary, this is just what I think of it.
Ive got the same goal as you, im not here to preach, just to talk

when I ever get into some trouble, I'll find someone to talk to.
this wont be God. It will be a close friend / family member / someone as yourself

talk to you soon,
Thomas.

Hey Thomas

Thanks for your reply, man. I'll always welcome you to chat. Sometimes we really just need a friend to listen.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Any house has a foundation. Modern science sits on a foundation of philosophy, assumptions, ways of looking at things, that go back to the enlightenment. Those assumptions are rarely made explicit in the modern world, let alone put up for examination, yet they are they foundations that post-enlightenment reasoning and more specifically science rely on, not the results of such reasoning.

well, you're right about the enlightment and the assumptions.
but I dont see them as relevant for my believe in science

its based on assumptions...yes.
but after all the proof science has provided, why should I care?

Much of it we know is quite remarkably accurate to the ancient manuscripts. The key event on which it all hangs or falls (the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth) is, in fact, as well attested as virtually any other event in 1st century history. It's only rejected because of an assumption of naturalism. 'It cannot have happened therefore it did not happen, therefore any other explanation for the data is better than "it did happen"'

perhaps there once was a man Jesus. he got crucified (maybe he was a criminal?), these might be true.. but there is absolutely no reason to believe the "religious" side of the bible.
I mean, being the son of God, making blind people see..
I see the bible as a fairytale, perhaps based on some facts...

Our ways of looking at the world aren't founded on proof, but on attempts to make sense of the stories we hear and experience.

well, thats the major difference between us I guess

By the people of God, a lot.

so have the "none-people of God" done aswel... its not because we dont believe in God we dont do anything good.
its not just christians who work as a voluneer for these organisations etc..

But that's the whole point - we are not (yet) at the stage where it should be blatantly obvious (except in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth and in the lives of those who give their allegience to his Kingdom).

once more its proven that we in no way can solve this discussion. you believe what you believe and no "logic" (what I see as logic that is) can convince you.
on the contrary, you're logic which seems oh so true and right to you, wont convince me.

you see Jesus' resurrection as something that really happened. I dont...

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Hey Thomas

Thanks for your reply, man. I'll always welcome you to chat. Sometimes we really just need a friend to listen.

your welcome aswel

and sometimes we do really just need a friend to listen...
thats one thing that really is true / uncontested