unsure...

[Celticflower]

with my own rules I mean something like:
-not having to believe everything my "lord" tells me to. (f.e. the bible)
-having freedom of mind, making my own decisions, not following somebody's else's advice
-not (having) to visit church every week
-choosing my own way of how I see things. Im not sure if I want to believe that someone just snapped his fingers and there earth was...
or that there is something out there in the universe which is our lord and looks over us all...

im not sure if you get the point but I really cant explain in much better

Actually, it is quite easy to see your point. You want to be in control of your life , you want your life to center around what you want and not what others may need. Your "rules" make you sound very self-centered.

Rules I live by? "Love my neighbor as myself", "show love to all people", "treat others as I want to be treated", "Work all I can, save all I can, give all I can, do as much as I can, for as many as I can, for as long as I can".

all this guiding and sinning scares me a bit to be honest..
isnt it easier to live life as you would want to? without any "sinner" rules to follow?

The easy way is not always the best way.

 

[Aibrean]

If you had no "sinner rules to follow" then you would be habitually sinning as you wouldn't be following the commands of Christ.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

well, ive mainly been reading on the internet...
mostly forums... ive been on both religious and atheistic forums to gather information.
some of these sites are

well, the video you youtube I saw was "the greatest optical illusion of all time". I first thought it would be some kind of magic trick but it turned out to be about God being imaginary... I found this video pretty interesting and watched some other video's by this person. I found about the site (whywontgodhealamputees.com) and ive been looking through that site aswel.

that youtube account is:
http://www.youtube.com/user/giivideo
the sites are:
http://godisimaginary.com
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

well, what I found most attractive was that you dont have to rely on anything. everything can be proven without any higher power.
everything has a meaning and explanation, no "God", just science.

their theories about, well, everything amaze me...

Thanks for the links. I checked into them and even joined "Why Won't God Heal Amputees".

The thing which struck me about the You Tube video was it seems so "black and white" in it's format and content. As I understand these samples, since amputees are not miraculously healed by regeneration then God does not exist; Since children are starving in the world God does not exist; If one believes in God then one is delusional. There is no middle ground, no gray. The narration seems to be almost Boolean in that things can be summed up as either "1" or "0". For example, regarding amputees and starving children, for me this means the work of the church is not finished yet. Are there any organized atheists addressing these concerns?

My experiences in life lead me to conclude there is a lot of gray in the world. What may be black to one person is white to another.

I cannot prove in any empirical scientific way that God exists. I believe God exists and if that makes me delusional, so be it. Religious belief by it's very nature is subjective. Trying to apply scientific principles to religion makes no sense to me.

If you are interested in reading some books consider "Your God is Too Small" by J.B. Philips and/or "Why God Won't Go Away" by Andrew Newberg. Both are pretty easy reads but very thought provoking (at least for me anyway). The Philips book explores why people sometimes are frustrated with God. The Newberg book is a fascinating study on how the human brain works particularly in religious belief. The conclusions are most interesting. Both books should be in your local public library.

At the risk of angering other believers, I suggest the final decision is yours. If atheism answers your questions about the world and gives you comfort then go for it. For me, a happy atheist is preferable to a sad frustrated theist.

I fear I may have done more harm than good with this post. Was this of any help to you?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Celticflower]

At the risk of angering other believers, I suggest the final decision is yours. If atheism answers your questions about the world and gives you comfort then go for it. For me, a happy atheist is preferable to a sad frustrated theist.

That is so true. We cannot force anyone to believe or not believe. Each must make their own choice.

 

[icamewithasword]

well, imo, religion hasnt done many good things... mostly bad things

I mean, if we could just forget it, wouldnt life but much easier?
easier as in a logical explanation for everything? wich doesnt involve a supernatural power?

well, as english isnt my primary language this might be a bit sloppy but I'll try...

I believe in the evolution theory, yes. it has been proven several times and the evidence is just so clear... it makes much more sense to me than God who just said poof and there the earth was.
I find it hard to believe in christianity as there are so many things that contradict it.. f.e. the bible states that the earth only is about 6000years old. thats just ridiculous if you ask me

some other things in the bible dont make sense at all.. like Noah who gathered 2 out of every specy and put them on a boat? how did he move for example, whales? and all the little germs/microscopical creatures?
concerning the flood aswel, there is no proof for this...

Jesus walking over water? turning water into wine? flaming godly bushes?

im sorry, but I just cant believe all of this... it seems way to fake

Just something to think about....
You called it "evolution theory" and then said it has been proven over again. But "theory" is not proof; and to believe in a theory...well, that takes faith.

 

[icamewithasword]

I used to watch a lot of the Science Channel; actually, I still do as I find a lot of the programs interesting.
But when you watch a program pertaining to topics like how the Earth was formed/ how old is the Earth....at no time do they (scientists) state that it is "proven" that the Earth is 4.5 (?) million years old. Science pertaining to Earth's age/ dinosaurs/ man's time on Earth/ evolution are based on theories.
Your struggle is not in believing in a "truth" (science) vs. a "faith"; but rather which faith you wish to follow.
If you're interested, you can find discussion on this in a book like I'm reading. I don't have it in front of me, but I believe the title is "Answers in the Bible" or "Bible Answers" (something to that effect, sorry I can't be more specific at this time).
I will pray for guidance for you.

 

[icamewithasword]

how can you be so sure there is a heaven? and that Jesus really lived?

I tend to think that Jesus / heaven arent real.

Help me out on this, anyone.....
It is my understanding that it has been "proven" in historical documents (not just the Bible) that Jesus did in fact live.

 

[Celticflower]

Help me out on this, anyone.....
It is my understanding that it has been "proven" in historical documents (not just the Bible) that Jesus did in fact live.

There is a reference to him in the histories of Josephus

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

you want your life to center around what you want and not what others may need.

wrong,
I dont want my life to center around what a (perhaps imaginary) God may need...

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

If you had no "sinner rules to follow" then you would be habitually sinning as you wouldn't be following the commands of Christ.

if Christ did even exist, we dont know what his commands would be

if you by his commands mean the bible then, well, I dont believe in the bible. its just a book. not even written by christ/god himself

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Thanks for the links. I checked into them and even joined "Why Won't God Heal Amputees".

The thing which struck me about the You Tube video was it seems so "black and white" in it's format and content. As I understand these samples, since amputees are not miraculously healed by regeneration then God does not exist; Since children are starving in the world God does not exist; If one believes in God then one is delusional. There is no middle ground, no gray. The narration seems to be almost Boolean in that things can be summed up as either "1" or "0". For example, regarding amputees and starving children, for me this means the work of the church is not finished yet.

yes, I feel the same about the black-white point of view about religion...
but still, there is a alot of truth in the videos I believe.
the vids are ment for people who believe everything the bible / pope might say...

Are there any organized atheists addressing these concerns?

perhaps there arent. but alot of organisations who tend to take care of these problems dont care about religion. people who join these organisations are both theist and atheist so...

If you are interested in reading some books consider "Your God is Too Small" by J.B. Philips and/or "Why God Won't Go Away" by Andrew Newberg. Both are pretty easy reads but very thought provoking (at least for me anyway). The Philips book explores why people sometimes are frustrated with God. The Newberg book is a fascinating study on how the human brain works particularly in religious belief. The conclusions are most interesting. Both books should be in your local public library.

I might will, thanks

At the risk of angering other believers, I suggest the final decision is yours. If atheism answers your questions about the world and gives you comfort then go for it. For me, a happy atheist is preferable to a sad frustrated theist.

I fear I may have done more harm than good with this post. Was this of any help to you?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

yes, this post has helped me alot. read my final conclusive post.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Just something to think about....
You called it "evolution theory" and then said it has been proven over again. But "theory" is not proof; and to believe in a theory...well, that takes faith.

I guess your right...
but believing in a theory (wich is based on facts / evidence)
makes more sense to me than believing in something we dont have a single clue of... (such as christianity)

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Help me out on this, anyone.....
It is my understanding that it has been "proven" in historical documents (not just the Bible) that Jesus did in fact live.

thats true, but it hasnt been proven he performed all those miracles

there might once have lived a guy named Jesus.. but to believe he was the son of God himself?
thats a bit over my head

 

[Hentenza]

im very unsure / uncertain wether to or not to believe in God

why should I?

dont flame me for this but I find the atheistic explanations / way of life more logic than the christian...

I need help on this so please reply soon

Mmm... I find this interesting. The atheist explanations are mere theories based strictly on matter and are not provable from a aborigenesis perspective. Which atheist explanation do you agree more with?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Mmm... I find this interesting. The atheist explanations are mere theories based strictly on matter and are not provable from a aborigenesis perspective. Which atheist explanation do you agree more with?

whats an "aborigenesis perspective"? sorry but english isnt my primary language...

well, I first of all believe in Evolution,
and in all sort of matters that are just PROVEN but wich the church just wont accept...
I mean, "condoms are pure evil", dont you think the pope is crossing the line?

another thing, homosexual people. I dont have a problem with that, and I dont see why God (who loves everybody) would?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Hey, its me once again, with a concluding post.
(which doesnt means I wont be checking PM's / new replies here..)

thanks to all of your posts, I've come to understand some things.

perhaps there is a God out there, perhaps Jesus really existed and performed all these miracles, perhaps God created everything as we know it...

but I dont believe that. I think, that there isnt any kind of God.
I believe in evolution and every other scientific explanation.

this doesnt mean, I am to judge all religious people. I think its brave to come up with faith in something that might and probably never will be proven. Even though I find this pretty "weird", I do respect it in a way I hope you will respect my decision.

so yes, ive finally become a true atheist. I hope you guys wont be mad but if you are, then so be it.

even though I didnt become a good christian, I would still like to thank all of you for taking time talking to me. I really appreciate it

you might not like reading this, but I would like to utter my special thanks to OldChurchGuy, who really got me thinking and (in an indirect way that is) got me to become a non-believer.
so, thanks alot. "preferable a happy atheist to a sad theist", right?
DO MIND, that it is my own decision. oldchurchguy is in NO way to be held responsible for it.

I might, or mightn't talk to you guys soon. its all up to you. I will keep on checking this thread and replying to EVERY post made here.

Goodbye, and thanks alot.

Sincerely,

Thomas.

 

[Criada]

Thank you for letting us know what you are thinking, Thomas.
I am glad that you are happy with what you have decided.
I hope, though, that you will continue to read, to think, and to consider. A great many atheists revile Christians for being 'closed minded', and yet they are determined not to consider any other viewpoint but their own.
I was an atheist, and, I was happy with what I believed, but I never stopped giving consideration to other viewpoints, and listening to what people believed. I hope that you can do the same.
Thank you for your willingness to listen to us here

 

[Hentenza]

whats an "aborigenesis perspective"? sorry but english isnt my primary language...

well, I first of all believe in Evolution,
and in all sort of matters that are just PROVEN but wich the church just wont accept...
I mean, "condoms are pure evil", dont you think the pope is crossing the line?

another thing, homosexual people. I dont have a problem with that, and I dont see why God (who loves everybody) would?

Well, I have been reading your posts in this thread and they strike me as your opinions being merely how you view things but not how things are. I hope that this observation is not offending to you because that is not my intent or desire.
For example, evolution does not teach about the origin of the universe nor does it teach about the beginning of life. Evolution is a theory regarding how the species came to be after the beginning by observable and scientific evidence. The thing is that it is still a theory and much is yet to be proven. I would suggest some further reading. Most Christians, btw, do believe in certain areas of evolution.
The ethics of Christianity is indeed defined by the revealed word of God in the scriptures, however, there are varies interpretations regarding issues like homosexuality, abortion, contraceptives, etc. For example, I am a Baptist and my church does not see condoms as evil but the Catholic Church does teach against contraceptives. These issues are secondary to the belief in the risen Christ.
The love of God that you briefly touched on is indeed a love of such magnitude that our finite minds can not fully grasp it. God sent His only son to die for our sins so that if we believe in Christ then we have the hope of salvation. Without this loving sacrifice we would not have had that hope. God will save those that he chooses and not any one of us can say that another person won't be saved. Can God save homosexuals? Yes, he can. Will He? No one knows.

 

[andreha]

Hey, its me once again, with a concluding post.
(which doesnt means I wont be checking PM's / new replies here..)

thanks to all of your posts, I've come to understand some things.

perhaps there is a God out there, perhaps Jesus really existed and performed all these miracles, perhaps God created everything as we know it...

but I dont believe that. I think, that there isnt any kind of God.
I believe in evolution and every other scientific explanation.

this doesnt mean, I am to judge all religious people. I think its brave to come up with faith in something that might and probably never will be proven. Even though I find this pretty "weird", I do respect it in a way I hope you will respect my decision.

so yes, ive finally become a true atheist. I hope you guys wont be mad but if you are, then so be it.

even though I didnt become a good christian, I would still like to thank all of you for taking time talking to me. I really appreciate it

you might not like reading this, but I would like to utter my special thanks to OldChurchGuy, who really got me thinking and (in an indirect way that is) got me to become a non-believer.
so, thanks alot. "preferable a happy atheist to a sad theist", right?
DO MIND, that it is my own decision. oldchurchguy is in NO way to be held responsible for it.

I might, or mightn't talk to you guys soon. its all up to you. I will keep on checking this thread and replying to EVERY post made here.

Goodbye, and thanks alot.

Sincerely,

Thomas.

Hey, Truely Unsure

You are perfectly free to make your own decisions - nobody has the right to force you at all. I would, if I may, like to leave you with a few words. If you ever face a situation in life, that overwhelms you to the point of losing your will to live, please remember that you are indeed free to call for Jesus to help. I'm not trying to convert you, my friend. It's just that I know what it feels like to go through living hell with no help. Sometimes, we face stuff that people can't help us with. I know you would think that I've flipped out if I had to say to you that I've personally seen Jesus Christ, and that I speak to God every day. Anyhow, as I said - please don't feel compelled to reply, as I'm happy to leave you in peace.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

I hope, though, that you will continue to read, to think, and to consider.

will do for sure

A great many atheists revile Christians for being 'closed minded', and yet they are determined not to consider any other viewpoint but their own.

you know that this is as true as it is the other way around, right?
there are just as much christians who are 'close minded' aswel. they are afraid to even think there mightn't be a God as this would mean the downfall of everything they are thaught to believe in?
thaught, indeed, as many christians got their believe "hammered" in their heads when they were (and still are) children.

you dont have to worry, im not going to stop thinking / learning.

sincerely,
Thomas.