Universe is not homogeneous as far as we know

[Tiberius]

It would, but you do not. That is the problem. All we have is something that ..IF..this present state HAD OF been in place WOULD HAVE taken a long time to produce by present state processes and ways.

The fact is that we have something that shows much more decay than could have occured in the few thousand years that you claim decay has been in effect.

No more or less flawed than believing this state was here for no reason. You need a reason.

What are you talking about?

Of course. Creation, and the nature that first existed, and processes. All that we now see is that some materials are now in a decay relationship in this state.

And displaying decay that would have taken millions of years to get. Hence the conclusion that they have been decaying for millions of years.

I use it to mean tossing out big links, and imaginaing that somewhere in them it helps what you are thinking in your head. You need to show where, and just use a link for a reference, or maybe a quote as well. Not spam a bunch of links.

That is not spam. And I've tried explaining things to you, like explaining how the different dating techniques are used to verify radio dating. Yoiu obviously don't get it, so I figured you needed to learn the basics of radio dating first. nothing that you have said has made me think otherwise.

I don't actually know. But like you I can suspect. If there is no way to actually measure distance (unless space can be proven to be the same) then we can go back to the drawing board. How big do they look? What about the star of Bethlehem? It was observed directly. It wasn't so big. So we do have at least one data point!

Wow! You admit that you don't know! We have here the beginning of the scientific method?

Now, let me ask you something... If you don't know something, do you think it is a good idea to investigate that thing, see if you can find out?

It means you should if you want it to be important and looked at.

So I should mention every single thing that could be possibly related to this topic of discussion?

One verifies it by becoming a believer. Then one can start to have it revealed. It has been coded that way. If one is talking about the records of men that were known, and gave their lives to verify it was true, then one should realize it is not a spaghetti monster account.

Thius makes no sense. The way you verify something is NOT to just believe it is true.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but reality does not oppose the Bible.

Yes it does.

Peter and etc knew Him. You just can't wave it away. It really is revealing that educated men in this day are actually Last Thursdayists.

Please show me something - anything - that can be verified as Peter's first hand account.

And I fail to see how this is last thursdayism.

I would look at the basis for the claim. I glanced at it once, I seem to recall that the present state again is involved. Pagan science, you know, it's like that. An old trick.

Ah, and you just instantly dismiss any of this "same past state" stuff because you don't believe it, and you don't believe it because you dismiss this same past state stuff. do you get dizzy running around in these circles?

No. None. The 'wall' wasn't part of the temple by any stretch! It was a retaining wall. You know they are don't you?

So you have a prophecy that says that a building will fall down. Like I said, a prophecy of something that is likely to happen doesn't require divinity to make.

Depends on the source, and whether any others exist I suppose.

Let's say it's a source that is in full agreement with everything we find from investigation, and has been fully tested in the most rigorous fashion and maintains its integrity. Would you accept the source as factual then?

Because it is written that Jesus would bring it back to them clear as a bell.

How convenient.

Besides, when a record is official, doesn't mean that it wasn't there already, but not sent to the publisher so to speak.

Yes, I'm sure there were a large number of people who wrote first hand accounts as soon as they got home, and then all decided to keep it secret for several decades.

 

[Davian]

Well, yes or no doesn't cover it.

"The Sun orbits around the center of the galaxy in a galactic year—once every 225-250 million Earth years."

Milky Way - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That of course is nonsense.

You cut and paste a link that you think is nonsense? And it's not proof, it's conclusions based on scientific consensus on astronomical data.

If there was a god, why would it create a cosmos that with things in it that take hundred of millions of years to rotate just once, but then write a book that that says it is less than 10000 years old? Or did you claim it was the other way around?

Whatever.

Back to you: If you can't prove something basic, such as the earth rotates on its axis, and orbits the sun, how can you, with a clear conscience, demand "proofs" from anyone else?













As it is too painful to watch, and so you don't have to evade the question yet again, the answer is no, you cannot prove that the earth rotates and that it orbits the sun. Or that the sun rotates and orbits the centre of the galaxy. It can't be done. The same applies to the existence of your god, and the authenticity of your bible.

If you think your case is above defeat, just make it..

I have stated my case several times in our exchanges, and I have never made the claim that my position is above defeat. Perhaps you were confusing me with dad.

 

[dad]

The fact is that we have something that shows much more decay than could have occured in the few thousand years that you claim decay has been in effect.

No you don't. You have something that had daughter material probably already. Therefore that daughter material cannot be ascribed to decay. The only daughter material that was produced by decay was that daughter material that came to be by decay since this present state started!

What are you talking about?

I am talking about you assuming our laws and nature existed long ago.

And displaying decay that would have taken millions of years to get. Hence the conclusion that they have been decaying for millions of years.

No, if the material (except for what decayed in 4400 years) was here already that doesn't apply.

That is not spam. And I've tried explaining things to you, like explaining how the different dating techniques are used to verify radio dating. Yoiu obviously don't get it, so I figured you needed to learn the basics of radio dating first. nothing that you have said has made me think otherwise.

Oh I get it. You don't. Just bring out a specific point from your links and see what happens.

Wow! You admit that you don't know! We have here the beginning of the scientific method?

Right I do not know what deep space is like. However, that expanse we call space is sandwiched twixt earth and another space, one we call the third expanse.

Now, let me ask you something... If you don't know something, do you think it is a good idea to investigate that thing, see if you can find out?

You have no power to do that. You are bound to earth and vicinity.

So I should mention every single thing that could be possibly related to this topic of discussion?

Better to focus.

Thius makes no sense. The way you verify something is NOT to just believe it is true.

For the bible it is. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

Please show me something - anything - that can be verified as Peter's first hand account.

He witnessed a lot.

And I fail to see how this is last thursdayism.

Some people want to pretend there was no Paul, or Jesus, or Peter, or Mark, or Luke...etc.

Ah, and you just instantly dismiss any of this "same past state" stuff because you don't believe it, and you don't believe it because you dismiss this same past state stuff. do you get dizzy running around in these circles?

I dismiss anti logic, anti God anti bible, unproven claims of the state of the past that are put forth as science. Of course.

So you have a prophecy that says that a building will fall down. Like I said, a prophecy of something that is likely to happen doesn't require divinity to make.

There are thousands of em. They can't be waved away, and are quite real.

Let's say it's a source that is in full agreement with everything we find from investigation, and has been fully tested in the most rigorous fashion and maintains its integrity. Would you accept the source as factual then?

Any factual proof and evidence is good.

Yes, I'm sure there were a large number of people who wrote first hand accounts as soon as they got home, and then all decided to keep it secret for several decades.

Christians met and I doubt any records were secret.It took time before an official compilation occurred.

 

[dad]

You cut and paste a link that you think is nonsense? And it's not proof, it's conclusions based on scientific consensus on astronomical data.

If there was a god, why would it create a cosmos that with things in it that take hundred of millions of years to rotate just once, but then write a book that that says it is less than 10000 years old? Or did you claim it was the other way around?

Show us the reasons it 'would take' that long to orbit?

Back to you: If you can't prove something basic, such as the earth rotates on its axis, and orbits the sun, how can you, with a clear conscience, demand "proofs" from anyone else?

I never said I couldn't. I could probably also prove motherhood and apple pie.

As it is too painful to watch, and so you don't have to evade the question yet again, the answer is no, you cannot prove that the earth rotates and that it orbits the sun. Or that the sun rotates and orbits the centre of the galaxy. It can't be done. The same applies to the existence of your god, and the authenticity of your bible.

False. God is well proven in millions of lives. Old ages are not.

I have stated my case several times in our exchanges, and I have never made the claim that my position is above defeat. Perhaps you were confusing me with dad.

So you have some position on something you claim is able to be defeated? Nothing to brag about, I would think.

 

[Davian]

God is well proven in millions of lives.

Provide one example of this proof.

Quotes or references from a bible will be accepted as abdication.

 

[dad]

Provide one example of this proof.

Quotes or references from a bible will be accepted as abdication.

"Spray me with the hose, just don't get me wet"

The witnessed resurrection and fulfilled prophesies and history of the bible is already a done deal. Your opinion isn't needed.

What you need to do is prove that this universe is all as our earth is. It really looks like we just do not know by science.

 

[VehementiDominus]

The witnessed resurrection and fulfilled prophesies and history of the bible is already a done deal. Your opinion isn't needed.

Fail.

The "witnessed ressurection", firstly, is ONLY EVER DOCUMENTED ABOUT IN THE BIBLE. Using that as evidence to support the existence of God - ALSO ONLY DOCUMENTED ABOUT IN THE BIBLE, is circular reasoning, and just about as flawed as it's possible to be.

What you're essentially doing is saying that The Legend of Zelda is true because it accurately prophecised that the Hero of Time would defeat Ganon. All of the important elements of that prophecy are self-contained within the LoZ: OoT.

As for the fulfilled prophecies they're either so amazingly vague, or self fulfilling and there's jsut as many failed biblical prophecies.

You want me to take a prophecy seriously?

Ok, then find me one that:

A) Is specific enough, for example, a date, a location and an event. Something so specific that you don't need to "interpret" it.

B) Something completely out of the hands of mankind, for example, a hurricane, an earthquake, a volcanic eruption, a tsunami, etc. This means that it can't possibly be self-fulfilling.

C) Something that can be shown to've happened, nothing self-contained in the Bible. Something that can be externally verified.

D) Something that it would've been impossible to accurately predict based on available evidence at the time the prophecy was made. Saying that it's going to rain tomorrow isn't a valid prophecy.

An example of such a prophecy:

Two thousand and eleven years after my birth, in a series of islands to the far East that you will come to know as Japan, a devistating tsunami will envelop the people there, as destructive earthquakes bring cities to the ground.

Until then, you know where you can stick your "biblical prophecy" nonsense.

 

[Davian]

"Spray me with the hose, just don't get me wet"

The witnessed resurrection and fulfilled prophesies and history of the bible is already a done deal. Your opinion isn't needed.

I excluded the bible as you have yet to demonstrate that it is anything other than a work of historical fiction. You then try to substantiate the bible using the bible. Fail.

Your opinion is all you have. Millions of proofs? You can't even provide one.

VehementiDominus handed you your hat on that one.

What you need to do is prove that this universe is all as our earth is. It really looks like we just do not know by science.

...because you need personal god to exist? Is that it?

Asking me to prove a negative? Not until you provide that proof that the earth rotates and orbits the sun.

 

[Davian]

I'll rephrase it then, since atheists can ask us about the Fall, but we can't ask them:

You are always free to ask me what I think of bible stories. I have never read a bible, so you will need to be clear on what you are asking so I can look it up.

Davian, what color do you think the sun was prior to 4003 BC?

Did you get the answer you were looking for on this? Shouldn't that be 4003 BCE?

 

[AV1611VET]

Shouldn't that be 4003 BCE?

No -- BC means Before Christ; whereas BCE means Before the Common Era.

 

[Davian]

Did you get the answer you were looking for on this? Shouldn't that be 4003 BCE?

No -- BC means Before Christ; whereas BCE means Before the Common Era.

Indeed. I put that in at Wikipedia and it says:

40th century BC
link

• c. 4000 BC, Liangzhu culture in China.
• c. 4000 BC, More than 100 dwellings surrounding a community center, a cemetery and a kiln are built in Jiangzhai, near modern Xi'an, China.
• Start of Naqada culture in Egypt.
• Early Jōmon period begins on the islands of Japan.
• Domestication of horses.
• Plough in use.
• Neolithic settlers begin to locate their communities at sites most easily defended, near rivers, on plateaus, or in swamps. For additional protection, they also frequently surround them with wooden walls, earth embankments and ditches.
• Civilizations develop in the Mesopotamia/Fertile crescent region (around the location of modern day Iraq).
• The first Korean civilization is founded around this era. According to myth, the founder is the son of a god and a she-bear who turned into a human.
• Clay pots and vats discovered at a sprawling cave system in southern Armenia near the border with Iran shows signs of an organized effort to press and distill grapes during the Copper Age.

Was there something you were looking for at that time?

I remember learning about Mesopotamia in grade school.

 

[dad]

..[opinion on bible]

By your comments I can see you never really looked at the bible prophesies. They are far above opinion. Look into it sometime.

 

[dad]

... provide that proof that the earth rotates and orbits the sun.

So you have nothing intelligent to say. OK.

 

[Chalnoth]

By your comments I can see you never really looked at the bible prophesies. They are far above opinion. Look into it sometime.

I would suggest you name one (and only one) that you think is above opinion. But that would be quite off-topic.

 

[dad]

I would suggest you name one (and only one) that you think is above opinion. But that would be quite off-topic.

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If one were to rock a skeptics world with Daniel's stuff, they would revert to thumb sucking Last Thursdayism, most likely. 'Daniel wasn't in my class, so he never existed...yada yada'

One could cite details of the virgin birth, and life of Messiah, they would likely snap into some zombie mindset, and say something like 'women are not usually virgins now, Mary must have had an affair, or never really lived, or blah blah..'

One could look at the captivity prophesied six ways from Sunday, that lasted 70 years, and other details of the destruction of Jerusalem, and yet they would likely still inevitably drift quickly into their pre programmed insane denial mode....

I guess that reason is involved, and anyone that comes at God's word determined to deny and doubt (regardless of what their mouth says) will cling to any straw of denial, no matter how unreasonable.


Like the miracles of the bible, and Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt.

One of my favorite prophesies is Dan 9. The days till Messiah would arrive before being cut off and killed are given!

Yet some people try to deny that Daniel existed, or use the old 'heck, these prophesies are way too true, and good to possibly be false, so they had to be written after it happened..'


Yet, there, on the very day prophesied, came Jesus on the donkey (also prophesied in another book). No wonder our year is 2011!

 

[sandwiches]

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If one were to rock a skeptics world with Daniel's stuff, they would revert to thumb sucking Last Thursdayism, most likely. 'Daniel wasn't in my class, so he never existed...yada yada'

One could cite details of the virgin birth, and life of Messiah, they would likely snap into some zombie mindset, and say something like 'women are not usually virgins now, Mary must have had an affair, or never really lived, or blah blah..'

One could look at the captivity prophesied six ways from Sunday, that lasted 70 years, and other details of the destruction of Jerusalem, and yet they would likely still inevitably drift quickly into their pre programmed insane denial mode....

I guess that reason is involved, and anyone that comes at God's word determined to deny and doubt (regardless of what their mouth says) will cling to any straw of denial, no matter how unreasonable.


Like the miracles of the bible, and Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt.

One of my favorite prophesies is Dan 9. The days till Messiah would arrive before being cut off and killed are given!

Yet some people try to deny that Daniel existed, or use the old 'heck, these prophesies are way too true, and good to possibly be false, so they had to be written after it happened..'


Yet, there, on the very day prophesied, came Jesus on the donkey (also prophesied in another book). No wonder our year is 2011!

Now, I expect your usual nonanswer of bare reassertion and dismissal but why should we believe prophecies of the Bible actually happened?

 

[VehementisDominus]

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If one were to rock a skeptics world with Daniel's stuff, they would revert to thumb sucking Last Thursdayism, most likely. 'Daniel wasn't in my class, so he never existed...yada yada'

One could cite details of the virgin birth, and life of Messiah, they would likely snap into some zombie mindset, and say something like 'women are not usually virgins now, Mary must have had an affair, or never really lived, or blah blah..'

One could look at the captivity prophesied six ways from Sunday, that lasted 70 years, and other details of the destruction of Jerusalem, and yet they would likely still inevitably drift quickly into their pre programmed insane denial mode....

I guess that reason is involved, and anyone that comes at God's word determined to deny and doubt (regardless of what their mouth says) will cling to any straw of denial, no matter how unreasonable.


Like the miracles of the bible, and Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt.

One of my favorite prophesies is Dan 9. The days till Messiah would arrive before being cut off and killed are given!

Yet some people try to deny that Daniel existed, or use the old 'heck, these prophesies are way too true, and good to possibly be false, so they had to be written after it happened..'


Yet, there, on the very day prophesied, came Jesus on the donkey (also prophesied in another book). No wonder our year is 2011!

C) Something that can be shown to've happened, nothing self-contained in the Bible. Something that can be externally verified.

What you're essentially doing is saying that The Legend of Zelda is true because it accurately prophecised that the Hero of Time would defeat Ganon. All of the important elements of that prophecy are self-contained within the LoZ: OoT.



Try again.

 

[Tiberius]

No you don't. You have something that had daughter material probably already. Therefore that daughter material cannot be ascribed to decay. The only daughter material that was produced by decay was that daughter material that came to be by decay since this present state started!

You really think that there is no mechanism to prevent such a mistake?

I am talking about you assuming our laws and nature existed long ago.

It's not a guess, it's based on evidence.

No, if the material (except for what decayed in 4400 years) was here already that doesn't apply.

Here you go again, taking your conclusion as a premise. Do you know how to recognise circular logic?

Oh I get it. You don't. Just bring out a specific point from your links and see what happens.

I don't what?

And I doubt you'd learn anything from a single point, as you lack the knowledge of context to place that point into.

Right I do not know what deep space is like. However, that expanse we call space is sandwiched twixt earth and another space, one we call the third expanse.

The third expanse?

You got any evidence for this? Or is it just another guess?

You have no power to do that. You are bound to earth and vicinity.

Avoiding the issue here?

For the bible it is. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

Ah, the Bible is the exception, isn't it? Simply because you just want it to be true, so you create excuses for it.

He witnessed a lot.

Answer the question please. Show me some ancient scroll or something that we can VERIFY as being peter's first hand account written in his own hand.

Some people want to pretend there was no Paul, or Jesus, or Peter, or Mark, or Luke...etc.

Not pretending. Just reaching a conclusion based on the evidence.

I dismiss anti logic, anti God anti bible, unproven claims of the state of the past that are put forth as science. Of course.

For someone who claims to not like anti-logic, you sure do a lot of it. Just because something disagrees with your preconcieved ideas doesn't make it anti logic.

There are thousands of em. They can't be waved away, and are quite real.

No there aren't. Shall we start a thread on this?

Any factual proof and evidence is good.

Then why do you dismiss so much of it?

Christians met and I doubt any records were secret.It took time before an official compilation occurred.

Then how do you know?

 

[dad]

C) Something that can be shown to've happened, nothing self-contained in the Bible. Something that can be externally verified.

FYI the bible is the record from God to man. There is no other.

What you're essentially doing is saying that The Legend of Zelda is true because it accurately prophecised that the Hero of Time would defeat Ganon. All of the important elements of that prophecy are self-contained within the LoZ: OoT.



Try again.

No, what you are trying to do is say that there was no captivity, Resurrection, Jerusalem, or last week.

The amazing prophesies of the bible foretold all the kingdoms, and hundreds and hundreds of things. You need to look into it. It is no more negotiable of in question than motherhood, or gravity.

So, in looking at the distant universe, man has merely applied earth rules, to try to explain how it works.

That is not known, or real science.

I have another thread I may do, that sheds light on further reasons it has to be true, that man has the wrong picture on space.

Lurkers, notice that nothing was offered in this thread that begins to prove that all the universe is as our present earth state is.

 

[Chalnoth]

FYI the bible is the record from God to man. There is no other.

Okay. How do you know this?