Universalism

[LightSeaker]

When you look through the Bible at the stories where water is the focus feature, you see chaos and death. Noah and the ark. Jesus walking on the water in the storm, Jesus in the boat during the storm. It is the water motif that runs from the beginning to the end of the Bible. And it always means chaos and death.

Not always. In Gen 1:2, in see that water is where God was dwelling. But I think that's more of a reflection of the Pagan beliefs from which the Biblical creation story originated. That's because in many ancient Pagan beliefs, God does dwell in or over water. That's why water in many ancient religions is seen as very sacred.

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[LJSGM]

When you look through the Bible at the stories where water is the focus feature, you see chaos and death. Noah and the ark. Jesus walking on the water in the storm, Jesus in the boat during the storm. It is the water motif that runs from the beginning to the end of the Bible. And it always means chaos and death.

Or storms might be a symbol of chaos....

Paul stated that we are baptized after the manner of Christ's death. It is a symbolism for the death of the old man and the resurrection into new life.

Or cleansing...

There are a lot of places in the Bible where a symbolism is drawn, and then Christ changes it and says He is the new ......... whatever. Leaven represents sin, but Christ in one place calls himself the leaven. While I think that Christ is trying to make a point in those specific incidents, the general overriding theme is that water represents chaos and death (and leaven represents sin).

The scriptures use things of the earth to speak to us spiritual truths, so you're right that they don't have to mean exactly the same thing everytime. But that does't help the case for universalism much either....

 

[LJSGM]

So if they were Gentiles then yes it would be talking about Gentiles but not Gentiles in general rather those who made up the cities mentioned.

What were we talking about again?

 

[LJSGM]

Ok.. This is what I figured but wanted to be sure I was on the same page. I disagree but I can understand how you could think this especially seeing as how it is commonly taught.

I wasn't taught it, it's obvious...

Two things. One what do you think about the fact that your understanding of these verses if correct show a direct contradiction to what Jesus himself is recorded as saying in John.

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you explain?

Two here is a section of an article realted to the part about the king of tyrus



link to complete article.. L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 9

I don't agree with it, so I guess we're at an empass on that subject...

 

[Soul Searcher]

I wasn't taught it, it's obvious...

Not to me but oh well.

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you explain?

The verse I quoted very plainly and directly says that he [the devil,satan, serpent] was a liar and murderer from the begining. If we are to believe the verses from the OT are talking about satan as once being a perfect cherub then that directly contradicts what Jesus is saying in the verse from John. When we consider that the OT verse does not actually mention satan at all and does explicity address itself to the king of tyrus whereas Jesus directly says that satan was always bad from the begining. It is even more clear that the verses from the OT should not be interpreted as refering to satan.

There is another verse which says no prophecy is of private interpretation and that we should let scripture interpret scripture. Scripture plainly says that satan was a liar and a murderer from the begining so if we use scripture to interpret it I see no way of twisting it to mean that satan was ever anything other than a liar and a murderer, certianly not a perfect angel of goodness. Unless of course we claim that John wrote it wrong or that Jesus did not know what he was talking about.

I don't agree with it, so I guess we're at an empass on that subject...

Fair enough

 

[Soul Searcher]

What were we talking about again?

The restoration of Sodom and other such cities

 

[A New Dawn]

Or storms might be a symbol of chaos....



Or cleansing...



The scriptures use things of the earth to speak to us spiritual truths, so you're right that they don't have to mean exactly the same thing everytime. But that does't help the case for universalism much either....

Can you provide a reference where Paul states that baptism is a cleansing? Thanks.

I would like to point out that, according to Revelation, there will be no seas in the new heaven and new earth. To me, that pretty much says that water represents death and chaos.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I would like to point out that, according to Revelation, there will be no seas in the new heaven and new earth. To me, that pretty much says that water represents death and chaos.

Interesting view. One that I have never considered before.

Based on this one could say then that baptism symbolizes being emerced in death and chaos with our eyes closed and then coming out of it into life and the light with our eyes open.

What would be your take on the lake of fire then? Does it symbolize death, torment, judgment, purification, something else?

 

[LJSGM]

Can you provide a reference where Paul states that baptism is a cleansing? Thanks.

I would like to point out that, according to Revelation, there will be no seas in the new heaven and new earth. To me, that pretty much says that water represents death and chaos.

In the Jewish Bible and other Jewish texts, immersion in water for ritual purification was established for restoration to a condition of "ritual purity" in specific circumstances. For example, Jews who (according to the Law of Moses) became ritually defiled by contact with a corpse had to use the mikvah before being allowed to participate in the Holy Temple. Immersion is required for converts to Judaism as part of their conversion. Immersion in the mikvah represents a change in status in regards to purification, restoration, and qualification for full religious participation in the life of the community, ensuring that the cleansed person will not impose uncleanness on property or its owners (see Numbers Chapter 19[49] and Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Chagigah, p. 12). This change of status by the mikvah could be obtained repeatedly, while Christian baptism is, like circumcision, unique and not repeatable.[50] -wiki

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

It was the act immersion it's self that signified burial and being raised from the dead, water was the cleansing.

Don't forget that Jesus called himself "living water." you would be saying that Jesus is "choas and death" right?

 

[skylark1]

When you look through the Bible at the stories where water is the focus feature, you see chaos and death. Noah and the ark. Jesus walking on the water in the storm, Jesus in the boat during the storm. It is the water motif that runs from the beginning to the end of the Bible. And it always means chaos and death.

Paul stated that we are baptized after the manner of Christ's death. It is a symbolism for the death of the old man and the resurrection into new life.

The perfect picture of death and chaos.

There are a lot of places in the Bible where a symbolism is drawn, and then Christ changes it and says He is the new ......... whatever. Leaven represents sin, but Christ in one place calls himself the leaven. While I think that Christ is trying to make a point in those specific incidents, the general overriding theme is that water represents chaos and death (and leaven represents sin).

Sometimes water represents chaos, but it also represents other things in the Bible.

Water is mentioned in the Bible 722 times. The symbolism that is used varies.


Water speaks of physical (or natural) birth

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Water speaks to us of the word of God

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Pslam 119:9
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.


Water speaks to us of the purification of the Christian

Ezekiel 36:25
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Hebrew 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Water speaks to us of spiritual life

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses do so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Isaiah 12:2-3 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Isaiah 55:1 HO, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) [/indent]




It is true that the sea is often used to represent restlessness and chaos. It is also worth noting that the gospels told of Jesus claming the sea.

Also, although we are told in Relvelation 21 that there will be no more seas (representing tribulation and chaos), in Revelation 22 we are told that there will be a river of life.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So, in the Bible water is used to represent a variety of things. It is used to represent natural life, chaos and tribulation, the word of God, purification, and spiritual life,



Going back to baptism, it was customary to baptize in living (flowing) water, which symbolized life

Apostolic period
Main article: Apostolic Age
The Apostolic Age is the period from Jesus' life to the death of the last apostle 100c. 100 (see Beloved Disciple). Most of the New Testament was written during this period, and the primary sacraments of baptism and the Eucharist were established. Protestants in particular value the church of the Apostolic Age as a witness to Jesus' true message, which they believe was subsequently corrupted during the Great Apostasy.

Along with fasting, the practice of baptism may have entered Christian practice under the influence of former followers of John's.[53]

The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, an anonymous book of 16 short chapters, is probably the earliest known written instructions, outside of the Bible, for administering baptism. The first edition was written 60–80 ADc. 60–80 AD.[94] The second, with insertions and additions, was written 100–150 ADc. 100–150 AD.[94] This work, rediscovered in the 19th century, provides a unique look at Christianity in the Apostolic Age. In particular, it describes the two foundational sacraments of Christianity: the Eucharist and baptism. It indicates a preference for baptizing by immersion in "living water" (i.e.,running water seen as symbolic of life)[95] or, if that is unavailable, in still water, preferably at its natural temperature, but considers that, when there is not enough water for immersion, it is sufficient to pour water on the head.[96][97][98][99][100]

Baptism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

This post heavily borrows from:
Water in the Bible | Learn The Bible

 

[PT Calvinist]

Being Reformed. I think differently. My Basis is Scripture. Consider Romans 1:18-20 which reads, "But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

All people have an inner sense of what God requires, but they choose not to live up to it. If people supress God's truth in order to live their own way, they have no excuse. They know the truth, and they will have to endure the consequences of ignoring it.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 reads: "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
The "eternal Destruction" Paul describes is the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14)--the place of eternal separation from God. Those pople who will be separated from God in eternity will no longer have any hope for salvation.

 

[threedog]

If you read it as regret, well, I can't stop you, but it looks like sorrow to me. That doesn't mean that he 1. wished he hadn't created man, or 2. That He isn't all knowing. That is just your conjecture. Nowhere does it say either of those things. Since He prepared a way to redeem man from the fall, I'd say that God could see the future and even prepared a way for the elect to return to Him.

New Dawn...you make me feel a college Grad that English is my second language (smile). In the dictionary the adj. regret is the 1st definition...there are of course other meanings. I understand your interpretation fully, but that is an incredible stretch when you consider what was to follow after he learned and witnessed man's incredible appetite for sin.

The fact that he killed every man, women, and child except for Noah's family is an strong indicator he regreted creating at least the sinful man. I am amazed you weren't able to link the scripture with his incredible remedy God choose to eradicate sin from the earth. God killed everyone he thought had a sinful lineage. He hoped Noah would change things via a righteous gene pool. Otherwise why would he spare Noah's family?

The scripture is very plain that God was sorry (regreted) creation as a whole...that's why he killed even the animals. Then the scripture talks about how he felt about it. God then, tried to salvage the best part of a failed experiement...Noah. You can't see that? God couldn't find one reason to allow even the most innocent to live....everybody was deserving of death except Noah. What else could it mean? Your point is just wishful thinking because the Bible has to be perfect and consistent.

Now let's me address your weak logic about God not being regretful because God ultimately sent Jesus for our redemption. It is really simple, and I am sure you will see the point.

A God need not require the ability to see into the future to act when the future becomes present. God could have felt the time was now for Jesus to redeem man...This has nothing to do with the ability to see the future. Secondly, The Bible is speaking about how God was thinking and feeling at the time of his revelations about his own horrific creation. It makes you wonder why there was a rebellion in Heaven...If you believe it.

You can never convince me that the Old Testament God is the same God that Jesus spoke of in the New Testament. The Old Testament God was clearly a more vengeful one...the New Testament God more about love and redemption.

Is God confused? Adam and Eve sin...God curses them. Nevertheless, God allows man to multiply and sin spreads like wildfire. God hates this and destroys everything, even the birds. Amazing! Noah's family is spared and man is allowed to multiply. Sin spreads everywhere again. Nothing has really changed. Now he sends Jesus to be a sacrificial lamb to cover the sins of mankind. But nothing has really change on earth to mitigate the sin. Sin is everywhere. You might be a better person because you found Jesus...but the world is no better off. Everyone has religion.

Why didn't God send Jesus in the time of Noah? It would have sparred a lot lives. I guess it didn't matter.

The answer is...God was learning about the sinful capacity of man...that is why he sparred Noah. God was hoping that Noah would clone a righteous species. God was wrong, because he was learning. And he obviously cannot predict the future. And God changed his mind. Trying various ideas to eliminate sin on earth. None of them has worked.

God's response in the Old Testament (death to all) was clear that it was not about you going to heaven, but about ending the unmitigated sin on earth. The new testament has a totally different approach... a more loving response to sinful nature of man. And heaven is now attainable.

I wonder what happened after Noah for God to suddenly find favor with us? For God to want this special relationship. Remember, God was not interested in that relationship in the time of Noah (the Flood). What did we do for God to suddenly have all this special love for us? What changed in the father to want to spare mankind and not murder us like in the days of Noah.


Did God have a change of heart as he took more responsiblity for what he created. Realizing that it not all our fault why we do the things we do. God realizing he created inside of us the capacity for great love and great hate. And that we never asked to be born at the risk of our own inevitable fate and best interest.

It was Jesus, not the God of the Old Testament. Because if you leave it up the the God in the Old testament he was set on the elimination of sin on earth. You be dead now... Maybe another flood. What's next?

What happened? How does a God transform from a mass murderer to a loving father of forgiveness who is willing to sacrifice his son on our miserable behalf?

Because it's all in your mind. The God of the Universe could never be so confused.


Respectfully,


threedog

 

[PT Calvinist]

A God need not require the ability to see into the future to act when the future becomes present. God could have felt the time was now for Jesus to redeem man...This has nothing to do with the ability to see the future.

Sounds like Open Theism....That is to say, if you are applying that God to the God written in the Bible. If so,
If God is ignorant of certain things, then He does not know all things and His understanding is not infinite. Of course the Bible is against such false teaching.
"in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things,"- 1 John 3:20

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite,"- Psalm 147:5


Otherwise you did a pretty good job in refuting 'A New Dawn'

 

[Soul Searcher]

There are some places in the bible where God does not seem to know everything that will happen, Genesis and Jonah are 2 examples that come to mind.

 

[timlamb]

I wonder what happened after Noah for God to suddenly find favor with us? For God to want this special relationship. Remember, God was not interested in that relationship in the time of Noah (the Flood). What did we do for God to suddenly have all this special love for us? What changed in the father to want to spare mankind and not murder us like in the days of Noah.


Did God have a change of heart as he took more responsiblity for what he created. Realizing that it not all our fault why we do the things we do. God realizing he created inside of us the capacity for great love and great hate. And that we never asked to be born at the risk of our own inevitable fate and best interest.

Three dog, you ask some great questions, but you have stopped expecting to get answers. Hold God accountable, He's big enough to handle it!

Most times when I have a tough question about God's ways I find the answer in life. God set up things so we can see Him in life. He didn't have to create the family unit, and why the fifth commandment, honor thy father and mother? No point in that after you leave home is there? But there is, and you can tell a genuine difference in people raised with a biblical family unit.

One thing I have done as a father that might help shed some light is to let my children fight it out. Sometimes they need to push things too far to understand the error of their ways. So I let them fight until it is so rediculous that I can't stand it and I blow my stack. And sometimes when you have a child that isn't listening you have got yo let them fall. Let them go off in their arrogance and pride, like the prodigal son, until they come back smilling like pigs, then they will listen.

If God just said "I know you are going to screw it up so I'll avoid the rush and destroy you now, on the day of judgment, where is the evidence? We would say, "You never gave us a chance!" So God's purpose would seem to be to let all men make their choice, earn their treasure or compound their punishment, so on the day of judgment we know exactly why we are there, and exactly why we diserve what we got.

This is a broken world, and we (man) broke it. But find a good father-son relationship, and you will get a glimps of what God intended for us and Himself.

 

[threedog]

Three dog, you ask some great questions, but you have stopped expecting to get answers. Hold God accountable, He's big enough to handle it!

Most times when I have a tough question about God's ways I find the answer in life. God set up things so we can see Him in life. He didn't have to create the family unit, and why the fifth commandment, honor thy father and mother? No point in that after you leave home is there? But there is, and you can tell a genuine difference in people raised with a biblical family unit.

One thing I have done as a father that might help shed some light is to let my children fight it out. Sometimes they need to push things too far to understand the error of their ways. So I let them fight until it is so rediculous that I can't stand it and I blow my stack. And sometimes when you have a child that isn't listening you have got yo let them fall. Let them go off in their arrogance and pride, like the prodigal son, until they come back smilling like pigs, then they will listen.

If God just said "I know you are going to screw it up so I'll avoid the rush and destroy you now, on the day of judgment, where is the evidence? We would say, "You never gave us a chance!" So God's purpose would seem to be to let all men make their choice, earn their treasure or compound their punishment, so on the day of judgment we know exactly why we are there, and exactly why we diserve what we got.

This is a broken world, and we (man) broke it. But find a good father-son relationship, and you will get a glimps of what God intended for us and Himself.

Thank you for taking the time to give me some very good advice.

threedog

 

[threedog]

Sounds like Open Theism....That is to say, if you are applying that God to the God written in the Bible. If so,
If God is ignorant of certain things, then He does not know all things and His understanding is not infinite. Of course the Bible is against such false teaching.
"in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things,"- 1 John 3:20

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite,"- Psalm 147:5


Otherwise you did a pretty good job in refuting 'A New Dawn'

thank you sir

threedog

 

[preistsplace]

There were some Good questions there three dog. I personally think that God knows the end from the beginning , but in the case of Noah He felt sad about how evil and flawed man was. Perhaps he even regretted creation for our sake, after all what hope did we have then our now. Outside of the sacrafice of Jesus there is nothing, I however rejoice in the beleif that all men will be brought into Christ eventually.
Blessings In Christ

 

[timlamb]

There were some Good questions there three dog. I personally think that God knows the end from the beginning , but in the case of Noah He felt sad about how evil and flawed man was. Perhaps he even regretted creation for our sake, after all what hope did we have then our now. Outside of the sacrafice of Jesus there is nothing, I however rejoice in the beleif that all men will be brought into Christ eventually.
Blessings In Christ

He regretted creating us because He felt bad for US? Are you saying God knew HE blew it?

Another question. Where in scripture does it say God's love for all men is unconditional? His love for His own holds no conditions, but it takes a commitment to become one of His own. Read John 1.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Read Matthew or Luke

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.