Universalism

[timlamb]

Read Matthew or Luke

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Loving your enemy is not God's unconditional Agape.

Did Jesus treat the Pharisees the same as He treated the disciples? How about the rich man? He told him to sell all he had and follow Him, He did not take him as he was, there were conditions. When He sent the disciples out to testify, if they were not recieved they were to wipe the dust of that town off their shoes on the way out, that meant leave them and forget them.

It is not ours to discern who is worthy, but God does not Agape all men unconditionally.

 

[Soul Searcher]

So let me ask you the question if God loves only those who love him how then is he better than the sinner?

 

[Soul Searcher]

To expand on that thought a bit. If God demands that we love him unconditionally even though [according to you] he places conditions of his love is he not asking more of us than he is willing to give? If he demands that we love him while he condemns our loved ones to eternal suffering is that a reasonable demand? If he commands us to love even our enemies but he will condemn not only his enemies but any who do not meet his so called conditions of thier supposed own freewill before they die can he really be called loving or merciful?

Fortunately God loves the world [meaning all the creatures therein] the good the bad the ugly they are all Gods creation and all objects of his love. Do you really expect us to believe that he demands more of his own imperfect creation than a perfect God can give?

 

[timlamb]

To expand on that thought a bit. If God demands that we love him unconditionally even though [according to you] he places conditions of his love is he not asking more of us than he is willing to give? If he demands that we love him while he condemns our loved ones to eternal suffering is that a reasonable demand? If he commands us to love even our enemies but he will condemn not only his enemies but any who do not meet his so called conditions of thier supposed own freewill before they die can he really be called loving or merciful?

Fortunately God loves the world [meaning all the creatures therein] the good the bad the ugly they are all Gods creation and all objects of his love. Do you really expect us to believe that he demands more of his own imperfect creation than a perfect God can give?

Christ tells Christians to love each other without condition, the way He loved the Church, I believe THAT would be Agape. Until one becomes a Christ follower, repented and redeemed, they are not the children of the Most High God (John 1) and are still under sin. I believe we are told to love are neighbor and our enemy in philio, brotherly love. We are to be kind and win souls for the Kingdom. God reserves the right of vengence or wrath for himself. After all, we cannot tell who are Christ followers having a bad day and who are Satan worshipers bent on leading others to destruction, and who are just lost and need to be led lovingly back to the Father. So, until told different we are to treat all the same, so as to win people by our love. Yes we are held to a different standard. When I was in business I would not allow an employee to talk severely to a customer, but I told a few to leave and not come back. It was my business and my perogitive and I knew who was benifitial and who was a drain to my business.

If God is so in love with the world as it now stands, meaning all creation, as you say, then why did He destroy it with a flood and promiss to destroy it again by fire? He is interested in those who, like Noah, want to be His children. God loves the world He created and will restore it one day. Those who are His will inhabit the new heaven and new earth. I love this country but there are people I'd like to deport because I don't think they love this country and what it stands for. God put governments in power and made the nations rise up. I think we use what He made for examples of His charactor. America I think has been truly blessed by God (not for much longer I fear) but there are people who would like to bring it down for their own evil purposes. There is an example from life that I think helps us understand God.

When you don't understand God, look around at what is truly good and just, and you will gain in wisdom.

 

[timlamb]

Hey guys, I am watching a vidio that has some amazing facts, many that might change your way of thinking.

For instance, time is a physical property of this reality we now know. It is a demention, it is as much tied to our world as gravity and mass. I can't explain the physics of it but it has been proven since before Einstien, back in the 1700's I believe.

Any way, if time is soley a dimention of this world, then it is at the passing from this world that we lose the demention of time. so everything beyond this world is, for lack of a better word, eternal, it just IS.

When Satan rebeled he was cast down to earth, so the earth existed before Satan fell and so Time existed. the decay of things seems to require time. The phrase "dead in your sin" would refer to a soul subjected to time. When we accept Christ our souls step outside the demention of time. Our spirit is never refered to in scripture as being in any danger of death. The body according to scripture has the capasity to be made eternal according to scripture, maybe not as we know it but eternal all the same. So, at physical death we step out of time. If we do so with a living soul we are eternal in that state. if we leave this world with a soul dead to Christ, it would also remain that way eternally.

The vidio on physics isn't over, If I learn more that applies I'll pass it along.

I did (as an update) remember that many believe that the second death is the seperation of soul and spirit. Does anyone know where we get the idea of spiritual death and does that mean that after the spirit and soul seperate that the spirit is what is left or is the soul what is left? Scripture?

 

[preistsplace]

He regretted creating us because He felt bad for US? Are you saying God knew HE blew it?

Another question. Where in scripture does it say God's love for all men is unconditional? His love for His own holds no conditions, but it takes a commitment to become one of His own. Read John 1.

I am saying that at the time he knew what would transpire in the future, but he felt bad for us and the point we were at, and also for what he was going to do.

 

[videoministry]

"And sometimes when you have a child that isn't listening you have got yo let them fall. Let them go off in their arrogance and pride, like the prodigal son, until they come back smilling like pigs, then they will listen."

Wise words. I can relate. Thank you for sharing so honestly!

 

[timlamb]

This, Isaiah 61, is what Jesus read from in the Synagogue at Nazareth, when He was rejected.(Luke 4:14-30)...

<H4>Isaiah 61

The Year of the LORD's Favor

1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor

This is where He stops reading and rolls up the scroll, because this is what He came to do in His forst comming, the rest will happen at His second comming, including...

and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

and the rest is prophet for the Jewish people.</H4>

3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion&#8212;
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor.
4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations. 5 Aliens will shepherd your flocks;
foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.

Here is the "day of Vengence" as prophecied in Revelation:

15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

It is all connected. Those who cry out for the vengence are the souls of those who are killed for their faith. this does not sound like a temporary thing or a punishment performed on a love one.

 

[timlamb]

A question: In what parable does Jesus NAME the persons involved?
The answer: None of them!

The point being the story of Lazarus and the rich man is no parable, it is a true event.

Notice there is no complaining from the rich man that he didn't deserve what he was getting, no mention that it could be changed or would end, and full knowledge of what it would take for his brothers to have the fate of Lazarus rather than his own.

<H5>The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

and notice the prophetic part, no one will be persuaded even if a man rise from the dead if they are not persuaded by scripture. </H5>
Lazarus, the young girl, and Jesus, all raised and only those who believed before were changed by the event.

 

[timlamb]

Hey guys, I am watching a vidio that has some amazing facts, many that might change your way of thinking.

For instance, time is a physical property of this reality we now know. It is a demention, it is as much tied to our world as gravity and mass. I can't explain the physics of it but it has been proven since before Einstien, back in the 1700's I believe.

Any way, if time is soley a dimention of this world, then it is at the passing from this world that we lose the demention of time. so everything beyond this world is, for lack of a better word, eternal, it just IS.

When Satan rebeled he was cast down to earth, so the earth existed before Satan fell and so Time existed. the decay of things seems to require time. The phrase "dead in your sin" would refer to a soul subjected to time. When we accept Christ our souls step outside the demention of time. Our spirit is never refered to in scripture as being in any danger of death. The body according to scripture has the capasity to be made eternal according to scripture, maybe not as we know it but eternal all the same. So, at physical death we step out of time. If we do so with a living soul we are eternal in that state. if we leave this world with a soul dead to Christ, it would also remain that way eternally.

The vidio on physics isn't over, If I learn more that applies I'll pass it along.

I did (as an update) remember that many believe that the second death is the seperation of soul and spirit. Does anyone know where we get the idea of spiritual death and does that mean that after the spirit and soul seperate that the spirit is what is left or is the soul what is left? Scripture?

OK, I just got schooled on some of this by the explaination of this verse:
Matthew 10:28 (New American Standard Bible)


28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I took this to mean that the body and soul would be destroyed in Hell, but apparently the word destroy is Apollumi, in the Greek, which means to be delivered up to eternal misery.

So going back to the Greek on this verse corrects some things for me but also denys the theories of univeralism and annihalationism.

I'm still working on the different charactoristics of soul and spirit in man and what happens to them in the first and second death.

 

[timlamb]

Allegory or not, this defines an eternal punishment for those who chose to side with Satan, and reward for those who don't:

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

 

[preistsplace]

Allegory or not, this defines an eternal punishment for those who chose to side with Satan, and reward for those who don't:

yes I can see how you came to that conclusion . Remember that many versions translate that verse as age of ages or eon of eons.

 

[preistsplace]

OK, I just got schooled on some of this by the explaination of this verse:
Matthew 10:28 (New American Standard Bible)


28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I took this to mean that the body and soul would be destroyed in Hell, but apparently the word destroy is Apollumi, in the Greek, which means to be delivered up to eternal misery.

So going back to the Greek on this verse corrects some things for me but also denys the theories of univeralism and annihalationism.

I'm still working on the different charactoristics of soul and spirit in man and what happens to them in the first and second death.

I am pretty sure that your version of apollumi is incorrect I willlookintoit and post on it if no one else does.
Blessings in Christ

 

[Soul Searcher]

Christ tells Christians to love each other without condition, the way He loved the Church, I believe THAT would be Agape. Until one becomes a Christ follower, repented and redeemed, they are not the children of the Most High God (John 1) and are still under sin. I believe we are told to love are neighbor and our enemy in philio, brotherly love. We are to be kind and win souls for the Kingdom. God reserves the right of vengence or wrath for himself. After all, we cannot tell who are Christ followers having a bad day and who are Satan worshipers bent on leading others to destruction, and who are just lost and need to be led lovingly back to the Father. So, until told different we are to treat all the same, so as to win people by our love. Yes we are held to a different standard. When I was in business I would not allow an employee to talk severely to a customer, but I told a few to leave and not come back. It was my business and my perogitive and I knew who was benifitial and who was a drain to my business.

If God is so in love with the world as it now stands, meaning all creation, as you say, then why did He destroy it with a flood and promiss to destroy it again by fire? He is interested in those who, like Noah, want to be His children. God loves the world He created and will restore it one day. Those who are His will inhabit the new heaven and new earth. I love this country but there are people I'd like to deport because I don't think they love this country and what it stands for. God put governments in power and made the nations rise up. I think we use what He made for examples of His charactor. America I think has been truly blessed by God (not for much longer I fear) but there are people who would like to bring it down for their own evil purposes. There is an example from life that I think helps us understand God.

When you don't understand God, look around at what is truly good and just, and you will gain in wisdom.

I can't help but notice that you did not answer my question. When you do then I will address the rest of what you have said but I'll give you a clue that brothely love does not condemn to eternal torment either.

 

[timlamb]

I can't help but notice that you did not answer my question. When you do then I will address the rest of what you have said but I'll give you a clue that brothely love does not condemn to eternal torment either.

I'm not sure what question I missed. Maybe you need to ask it more directly, less words.

I don't think God loves in "brotherly" love. I said that is how WE are instructed to love, because we are not in a position to judge. If we knew what God knows we could act accordingly, but we ARE held to just love everyone and let God deal with their natures.

Another point is that most people don't sin against us, they sin against God, so while WE have no basis for wrath, He does.

 

[timlamb]

yes I can see how you came to that conclusion . Remember that many versions translate that verse as age of ages or eon of eons.

It is my understanding that in the language of the day "ages of ages" and/or "eons on eons", was a term for forever, eternal.

 

[preistsplace]

your plural there is incorrect age of the ages eon of the eons.Since ages and eons usually refer to measured time I would disagree with you there.

 

[timlamb]

your plural there is incorrect age of the ages eon of the eons.Since ages and eons usually refer to measured time I would disagree with you there.

No, I'm pretty sure I heard correctly from a competent source.

 

[threedog]

There were some Good questions there three dog. I personally think that God knows the end from the beginning , but in the case of Noah He felt sad about how evil and flawed man was. Perhaps he even regretted creation for our sake, after all what hope did we have then our now. Outside of the sacrafice of Jesus there is nothing, I however rejoice in the beleif that all men will be brought into Christ eventually.
Blessings In Christ

I appreciate your response...take care.

threedog

 

[timlamb]

I just want to throw this out there to speculate on. Please do not attempt to dismiss it unless you can do so with some degree of knowledge. This is based on physics and cannot be voided by feelings.

We live in a three dimentional universe with four influencing properties, acceleration, mass, gravity and time. Physics however has proven if only by inference, the existance of many more dementions that we are unable to see or utilize.

According to scripture the universe can be streatched, rolled back, opened, torn; the universe has physical properties that we can only specualate on.

The example given was the question, "How would we, in a three dimentional existance, communicate with a two dimentional world. Draw two people on a piece of paper, if they had life how would you reach them to tell them about yourself? You could only draw pictures, so you would identify yourself through images. If you tryed to enter their world in three dimentions all they could see would be two of your three, so they would get a very limited image of you. For instance, a finger stuck through their flat world would look like a circle.

Physic has determined that there may be as many as ten dimentions to the unseen world, which would mean that all these dimentions were in Eden, the "Spiritual dimentions". It is the lack of being able to see these dimentions that makes God the "Invisible God". If this doesn't rattle any preconcieved ideas of what heaven and hell are then you aren't paying attention.

Science has also proven that the universe is made of digital information. It was therefore, created and also has size limits; and on it goes.

Much can be made of the fact that Jesus, after the resurrection, pointed to the fact that He was flesh and bone, and yet He walked in and out of rooms without using the door. Even in what we know as the physical there are dementions we are not aware of.

So, without intending to sound too "sci-fi" this idea that heaven is up and out of hte universe, and hell is in the center of the earth, are not accurate. It may be more a matter of existing in more dimentions or fewer dimentions. Please don't think I'm trying to alter the Bible, I don't mean to say anything that does not fit with scripture. But it could be that even know there is a spiritual dimention we are not aware of that, in the event of dying in sin, would be taken away. And that being with God would be a matter of the origional dimentions of the Spirit restored in all their splendor.

It could be also that upon physical death we only lose THAT dimention to our existance. We are told when a believer dies he will see Jesus as He really is, so we will see Him in all His dimentions and WE will become like Him in that we will take on those dimentions. And it could be that God simply will not allow any rebels into this muti-dimentional existance again, as Satan was when he rebeled. There is simply too much power in existing in those dimentions for anyone not committed to God's will to have access to it.

Part of this that I stated is known in the world of physics and most of the latter part is my own speculation. I am sure that my speculation goes too far or not far enough or misses the mark. But my point is that the discovery of these other dimentions and their consideration must change the way we think of eternity. God has painted some images and word pictures and came to earth and talked to us in our own dimention, but we cannot understand what it will be like in a ten dimentional existance. This idea of hell being a holding tank for prisoners to be released when they conform just doesn't fit. Those who die in sin cannot see God as He really is, and "even what they have will be taken away", as scriptures says of those who do not take care of the masters posessions.

Just food for thought.