Universalism

[Soul Searcher]

Yep there you go, I bet that'll work! The bible was written by a bunch of guys with over active imaginations and especially in Jesus day people really streached a story, so WHY BELIEVE ANY OF IT, RIGHT?

The udder foolishness one will go to to..how far will you go to make the bible trash; and unbelievable fairy tale?

God means what He says and you will have alot to answer to on judgment day.

Fools!

Typical,

It is a fact that people do exagerate sometimes to make a point. We see it all the time. As I said I have heard that it was even more common in that day which given all the myths which were floating around would seem to be accurate. This may or may not be the case with one or more authors of the bible. One should be willing to take it into account is what I was saying but few do and some will even attack you if you even suggest such a thing as you have just shown us.

I notice that you did not address the point about John seeing smoke forever. Does that mean you do not have an arguement and must resort to this sort of thing?

Oh well perhaps someday your eyes will be opened and you will be able to carry on a reasonable conversation on the subject.

 

[LJSGM]

Typical,

In is a fact that people do exagerate sometimes to make a point. We see it allt he time. As I said I have heard that it was even more common in that day which given all the myths which were floating around would seem to be accurate. This may or may not be the case with one or more authors of the bible. One should be willing to take it into account is what I was saying but few do and some will even attack you even you even suggest such a thing as you have just shown us.

I notice that you did not address the point about John seeing smoke forever. Does that mean you do not have an arguement and must resort to this sort of thing?

Oh well perhaps someday your eyes will be opened and you will be able to carry on a reasonable conversation on the subject.

I agree with you myself, but only on the verses in revelations about the smoke ect.

I just remembered some verses in the OT that say Satan will be destroyed... let me find them...

 

[Soul Searcher]

depends on the context...

With baptism is means cleansing, and also Jesus called himself living water.

Keep in mind however that the bible also says that he [Jesus] will baptise us with fire and the holy spirit. In other paces it also says that we will be salted with fire, tried by fired and saved as by fire.

So in at least some cases fire may refer to cleansing, purification and salvation. Also note that the lake of fire also mentions brimstone which was thought of as a purifing agent.

 

[LJSGM]

Ezekiel 28
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

 

[LJSGM]

Keep in mind however that the bible also says that he [Jesus] will baptise us with fire and the holy spirit. In other paces it also says that we will be salted with fire, tried by fired and saved as by fire.

So no in at least some cases fire may refer to cleansing, purification and salvation. Also note that the lake of fire also mentions brimstone which was thought of as a purifing agent.

It depends on the context, like I said, When refering to punishment, fire almost always means destruction. When God destroyed sodom and gomorrah, you don't think he was "cleansing" the earth?

 

[Soul Searcher]

It depends on the context, like I said, When refering to punishment, fire almost always means destruction. When God destroyed sodom and gomorrah, you don't think he was "cleansing" the earth?

In a manner of speaking yes he was cleansing the earth of the sins of those cities, but yes the fire destroyed those cities in the story. The bible also speaks of these being restored which would indicate that they too can be saved.

 

[LJSGM]

In a manner of speaking yes he was cleansing the earth of the sins of those cities, but yes the fire destroyed those cities in the story. The bible also speaks of these being restored which would indicate that they too can be saved.

Which verses are you refering too?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Ezekiel 28
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

See Verse 12 for proper context.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

The story is not about satan. It is about the king of Tyrus and is clearly using symbolism as prophecy often does. If you understand the pronouns you and your here both refer to the king of Tyrus then you will better be able to understand the verses in question.

Just to be clear please note that the person this is being said to is the king of Tyrus so when it says You were this or that it is a direct reference to the king of Tyrus. Satan is not mentioned at all.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Which verses are you refering too?

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate

 

[LJSGM]

See Verse 12 for proper context.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

The story is not about satan. It is about the king of Tyrus and is clearly using symbolism as prophecy often does. If you understand the pronouns you and your here both refer to the king of Tyrus then you will better be able to understand the verses in question.

Just to be clear please note that the person this is being said to is the king of Tyrus so when it says You were this or that it is a direct reference to the king of Tyrus. Satan is not mentioned at all.

I know that it was speaking of the king of tyrus, but it is also speaking of Satan just as David was giving prophecies of Jesus even though it sounded like he was speaking only of himself.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Please remember that it does not mention satan at all, not even in passing. It Literally say YOU when refering to the king of Tyrus and is extremely clear as to the subject of the prophecy. The same is true for the prophecy regaurding the king of Babylon, no mention of satan there either, not one.

I know a lot of people have been hoodwinked into believing that Satan was once called Lucifer and was a perfect angel of light who became the ultimate evil force and they actually believe these verses describe the event. The simple fact is they do not. They do not mention him at all. In both cases they are talking about powerful men who became corrupt and fell.

On the other hand in regaurds to satan the bible tells us straight out that he was a liar and a murderer from the begining. Meaning he was never a good guy, never an angel of light, always an angel of darkness from day one that is his job and always has been. This is how he was created and how he remains.

Do you really think that an all knowing God would create a "perfect" angel only later to find that this angel was corrupt? That certianly does not say much for God and his ability to detect error or his ability to create what he is trying to create. If these stories actually meant what many believe it would show God has having made a very grave error and all of mankind having to suffer for Gods mistake. If eternal torment is true [it's not but just for sake of arguement] then this one mistake will cause billions and billions of people unending misery and God apparently fails to see that it is his fault. Not a very wise nor just God painted by such a story certianly not all knowing.

 

[LJSGM]

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate

Could he speaking of the gentiles?

 

[LJSGM]

Please remember that it does not mention satan at all, not even in passing. It Literally say YOU when refering to the king of Tyrus and is extremely clear as to the subject of the prophecy. The same is true for the prophecy regaurding the king of Babylon, no mention of satan there either, not one.

I know a lot of people have been hoodwinked into believing that Satan was once called Lucifer and was a perfect angel of light who became the ultimate evil force and they actually believe these verses describe the event. The simple fact is they do not. They do not mention him at all. In both cases they are talking about powerful men who became corrupt and fell.

On the other hand in regaurds to satan the bible tells us straight out that he was a liar and a murderer from the begining. Meaning he was never a good guy, never an angel of light, always an angel of darkness from day one that is his job and always has been. This is how he was created and how he remains.

Do you really think that an all knowing God would create a "perfect" angel only later to find that this angel was corrupt? That certianly does not say much for God and his ability to detect error or his ability to create what he is trying to create. If these stories actually meant what many believe it would show God has having made a very grave error and all of mankind having to suffer for Gods mistake. If eternal torment is true [it's not but just for sake of arguement] then this one mistake will cause billions and billions of people unending misery and God apparently fails to see that it is his fault. Not a very wise nor just God painted by such a story certianly not all knowing.

It does speak of Satan I believe, and I don't believe in everlasting torment....

 

[Soul Searcher]

It does speaking of Satan, and I don't believe in everlasting torment....

Can you point out the part where it actually mentions satan?

btw Gald to hear that you do not believe in eternal torment

 

[Soul Searcher]

Could he speaking of the gentiles?

Was sodom or the others a gentile city when it was destroyed?

 

[LJSGM]

Can you point out the part where it actually mentions satan?

btw Gald to hear that you do not believe in eternal torment

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

you were in eden... walked amoung the fiery stones... threw you to the earth... cherub.....

David when speaking of the prophecies of the messiah, doesn't actually mention Jesus in them either and it actually sounds like he was speaking of himself.... But Jesus indicates that they were speaking of him, the messiah... in the same way, for some reason God speaks to the king of tyrus as if he were satan...

 

[LJSGM]

Was sodom or the others a gentile city when it was destroyed?

Sounds as if they were...

Genesis 13
10 Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

 

[A New Dawn]

depends on the context...

With baptism is means cleansing, and also Jesus called himself living water.

When you look through the Bible at the stories where water is the focus feature, you see chaos and death. Noah and the ark. Jesus walking on the water in the storm, Jesus in the boat during the storm. It is the water motif that runs from the beginning to the end of the Bible. And it always means chaos and death.

Paul stated that we are baptized after the manner of Christ's death. It is a symbolism for the death of the old man and the resurrection into new life.

The perfect picture of death and chaos.

There are a lot of places in the Bible where a symbolism is drawn, and then Christ changes it and says He is the new ......... whatever. Leaven represents sin, but Christ in one place calls himself the leaven. While I think that Christ is trying to make a point in those specific incidents, the general overriding theme is that water represents chaos and death (and leaven represents sin).

 

[Soul Searcher]

you were in eden... walked amoung the fiery stones... threw you to the earth... cherub.....

Ok.. This is what I figured but wanted to be sure I was on the same page. I disagree but I can understand how you could think this especially seeing as how it is commonly taught.

Two things. One what do you think about the fact that your understanding of these verses if correct show a direct contradiction to what Jesus himself is recorded as saying in John.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Two here is a section of an article realted to the part about the king of tyrus

Although theologians tell us that Ezekiel 28 also records the fall of Satan from a perfect cherub, it is the king of Tyrus and not Satan who is being addressed in this lamentation. The fact that he was called full of wisdom and perfect in beauty by no means suggests that this is speaking of Satan. Perfect is used in a relative sense when not speaking of deity. God is merely shoving this in the kings face, as it was Tyrus who earlier attributed to herself this claim of perfect beauty, not God!
"Now, you son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus; And say unto Tyrus, O you that art situate at the entry of the sea, which are a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus says the Lord God; O Tyrus, YOU HAVE SAID I am of perfect beauty" (Ezek. 27:2-3).
This is exactly the same situation as our Lord dealt with in the city of Capernaum. In fact He says it will be more tolerable for boastful Tyre in the day of judgment than for Capernaum:
"But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum which are exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down to hell [hades/grave]" (Luke 10:14-15).
Notice in both cases it is not God Who believes Capernaum or Tyrus is perfect and heavenly, but the carnal-minded people of these two city states. The word "perfect" is used many times in Scripture to mean that there is no outward imperfections (as in a perfect animal for sacrifice, without any outward blemishes). Inside, however, the one who may appear perfect outwardly, can be totally corrupt. It certainly does not mean "sinless." Here is Scriptural proof:
The Scriptures say that Noah was perfect in his generation, (but need I remind you of a slight imperfect problem he had with the grape juice after the flood?) And God said that Job was perfect in Job 1:8 (which makes us wonder why Job had to abhor himself and "repent in dust and ashes," Chapt. 42:6). And David said of himself that he was perfect in Psalm 18:32, (perfect maybe if we forget about his numbering of Israel in rebellion to God, and perfect if we forget that little incidence with Bathsheba and her husband Uriah).
Continuing with verse 13:
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God… in the day that you were created."
Here we are told is even more proof that this is speaking of Satan. After all, wasn’t Satan in the garden of "Eden" and wasn’t Satan a "created" being?
The word translated "Eden" in this verse is the same word or root translated Eden 20 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Sometimes it has reference to the "garden" that God planted in the area of the country called Eden. Sometimes it has reference to other lands near the area of Eden, and not the garden of Eden. Sometimes it refers to the "children of Eden" as in II Kings 19:12. And I think everyone is aware of the fact that Adam and Eve had NO CHILDREN in the "garden of Eden." Amos 1:5 speaks of the "house of Eden"—very same Hebrew word translated "Eden" in every occurrence of this word in the Hebrew Manuscripts. And Eden is also the name of several persons in Scripture.
Now back to verse 13 and Eden the garden of God." And so, we see that "Eden" can mean various things, even though Eden is always translated from the same Hebrew word, which is Strong’s #5731, Eden, ay’-den; the same as #5730, eden, ay’den; from #5727, pleasure. #5727, adan, aw-dan’; to be soft or pleasant… to live voluptuously.
And so we find that this is a word that has a meaning, and that this word does not need to be capitalized. Neither is it capitalized OR translated "eden" in other Scriptures:

link to complete article.. L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 9

 

[Soul Searcher]

Sounds as if they were...

Genesis 13
10 Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

So if they were Gentiles then yes it would be talking about Gentiles but not Gentiles in general rather those who made up the cities mentioned.