Universalism

[preistsplace]

I don't think that way at all, I've shown Jeh. Wit's proof that
they're teachings were outright false and twisted and it didn't
help any.

It takes God's work in people to change any beliefs - and it takes
honesty & humility on man's part

So that it is said God is the one who showed me Universal Salvation. I was sceptical at first and I conststantly came to God In prayer asking him to show me what the truth of the matter was. At the time when I felt the most skeptical the most confused after prayer I would begin to read the Bible , just opening it to any part and after no more than two or three minutes of reading every time I had a confirmation on Universal salvation.
Aftrer I accepted it I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit, rivers of living water and an incredible connection with God that lasted for almost three days .

 

[Tissue]

What is faith? The proven and seen?
Or belief in what we don't know for sure?

Faith is a knowledge, bestowed upon us by the Spirit.

We are judged on this life - what we do here.
The truth is, once we die, we MUST have a blood covering to
cover our sin.
The penalty of sin is death; that is the cutoff. Death.

Yes, I know that you claim it is a cut-off. What I don't know is why it is a cut-off, or what your basis is for believing it is a cut-off, or why Jesus' sacrifice suddenly loses its power to save after death, or why God is not powerful enough to redeem those in hell, or why people in hell suddenly lose all capacity to think and reason and understand and act and be touched by God.

Once we're dead and SEEING GOD and the afterlife and His
judgment throne, that is no longer FAITH, it's proof and people
are then just wanting out of punishment.

What's wrong with that? The disciples had 'proof'. Are they not going to heaven because they had such a vivid (tangible) encounter with Jesus and his spiritual nature? Surely walking around with Jesus for three years would be more 'proof' than a quick confrontation on 'Judgment Day'.

What's wrong with people wanting to get out of punishment? They have all eternity to thank God for what He did for them, and to learn the extent of His sacrifice.

That isn't TRUE remorse for sin that they refused to repent of.

Why not? I don't think many (any) non-believers expect the consequences that they may discover on 'Judgment Day'. Haven't you ever learned of the unexpected and negative effects of one of your actions and been apologetic? Isn't that valid?

Also, there's gnashing of teeth there - another indication of
anger and derrision, not repentance.

Pretty sure that's not a proper interpretation of that phrase.

And I've been angry with God. Often. Doesn't mean I can't repent.

Nobody has shown me where people repent and get out of
punishment, all I see are verses taken out of context and
a doctrine read into them to make them fit what people
want to be true.

Problem is, each of the verses we see that provide a powerful argument for Universal Reconciliation has been interpreted by the 'primary' church for over a thousand years so that it does not lead toward that claim.

You say 'that at the knee of Jesus every knee will bow on heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father' is taken out of context, while we see it as one of the clearest and most beautiful promises of all. Why? Because, traditionally, the church has glossed that verse by saying that, though all will bow, all will not do it willingly.

But that's an addition to the verse. I don't see compulsion anywhere in there. It's how the verse MUST be interpreted in order to fit with your views.

You've been angry with the way in which we've used Scripture, but all we are doing is choosing one of multiple valid (insofar as they are reasonable, though you may disagree) interpretations of a verse so that it fits with our theological outlook. For me, God is primarily a God of Love.

 

[Tissue]

You are measuring God's view of justice by ours. To God, for me to lust after your wife is adultry, to be angry with you could be the same as killing you.

To imperfect man, we go to one extreem or the other. We tolorate our child on drugs or even committing murder but a spit in the face might get them evicted. God says, "be perfect", and He takes nothing less.

But no one is perfect, except Jesus. Yet we believe, despite our imperfection, and the general impossibility of completely removing our sin nature (of which our indulgence is really the problem, not our actions), that we will get to heaven. God commands us to go toward perfection, but no Christian can achieve it on this side of eternity.

Let's not argue the mosaic laws just for the jewish people shall we? We hold our own children to different standards than other children.

The point is, how far would you go to save the two who wanted righteousness?

That wouldn't be an incredible expression of love. Of course you would save the two who wanted righteousness. What would be an even more incredible expression of love (even infuriating for some) would be the extent to which one would save the eight who DON'T want righteousness. That's love.

I personally believe the unbelievers are removed from the loving kindness of Christ at the time of death, and so goes any heart of repentance. No one can come to the Father unless the Son draw him.

Why can't the Son draw them while they are in hell?

TISSUE, YOU ASKED A QUESTION AND I GAVE SEVER POSSIBLE ANSWERS, WHY DO YOU IGNORE MY RESPONCE? Except to compare my child rearing philosophy with the wrath of God)

I apologize; I do not have the luxury of spending all day on CF. I slept last night and went to work today.

If, after this round of posting, I have still missed a post of your's, please bring it up. I assure you, it's accidental.

 

[Tissue]

A believer has direct connections to God; His own Spirit dwells within them and leads them into truth.
I know how you meant that statement, but I assure you, Christians
have alot more in common in belief than many may think.

Really? Because you and I don't seem to have much in common at all, except perhaps the Nicene Creed.

 

[Rajni]

Nice person, if only you used it for sound doctrine.

Need a refresher? Here: http://www.christianforums.com/t5918149-16/

LOL! Why would I want to read an old thread about people debating with Calvinists?

Does this mean you can't respond for yourself to my previous post?


.

 

[Rajni]

Chaela, I sound like a broken CD/record....
but AGAIN this is another example of what you guys
are reading into a verse with your coloured lenses.

Jesus ALSO asked the Father to have the cup pass
from Him as well. Which it did not.

You cannot read in your doctrine to a verse when it
directly contradicts other verses and have it be the case.

There is an unpardonable sin - that NEVER gets forgiven.
Matthew 12:31
[ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3
The Unpardonable Sin


28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—


Now if you want to deny these, fine - scripture teaches
otherwise.

Nadiine, to which of my posts is the above a response to?



.

 

[PT Calvinist]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Sound [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]familiar? If anyone was openly hating, blaspheming, and rejecting [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]God, it was those who crucified Him. Jesus’ response? “Father [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]forgive them, for they know not what they do.” [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]All sinners will be saved. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. So, [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]if the person is in the category of “The Lost”, that person will be [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]saved, yes. People like to point the finger and provide examples of [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]those they feel are “worse sinners” than they themselves are, but [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]the bottom line is that if anyone here just in this discussion alone [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]can be saved, there’s no one out there who can’t be. We are all [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]equally undeserving of salvation, in God’s eyes.[/FONT] I know that's hard
on the ego, but there it is.

Your fallacy is duly noted. The Bible dosen't contridict itself.
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--Mark 3:29

more importantly, if we in the end get eternal life, why this then?
" a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

26And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" 27And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

"so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."- John 3:15
What of someone who dosen't believe?

"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."- Galatians 6:8
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"- 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment."- Hebrews 6:2

"and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."- Hebrews 9:12
Your translation here dosen't seem to fit the profile. Thus you're wrong. bye.

P.S. Repent and stop spreading the false gospel.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, to which of my posts is the above a response to?



.

Originally Posted by chaela

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Sound [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]familiar? If anyone was openly hating, blaspheming, and rejecting [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]God, it was those who crucified Him. Jesus’ response? “Father [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]forgive them, for they know not what they do.” [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]All sinners will be saved.[/FONT]
​

What has to be remembered is that Christ operated in
dual natures - Man (with weaknesses and pain)
Deity - which was set aside for His mission.

He limited Himself and it wouldn't at all be odd for
Christ to ask they be forgiven; it does NOT mean
that they WERE forgiven if they didn't repent.

Christ called the Pharisees "sons of the devil", not
sons of God.
​

 

[Tissue]

Your fallacy is duly noted.

In the words of Inigo Montoya: 'I do not think that word means what you think it means'.

 

[LightSeaker]

That's why Uni's love him.:o

A lot of the theology that you hold to came from Origen.

.

 

[CaDan]

I am always amazed at how nasty these discussions of anything like Universalism get. They are surprisingly personal and the insults, veiled and otherwise, fly thick and fast from those opposed to it.

 

[CaDan]

What has to be remembered is that Christ operated in
dual natures - Man (with weaknesses and pain)
Deity - which was set aside for His mission.
​

Make sure to tack on "in one Person."

​

 

[Rajni]

Your fallacy is duly noted. The Bible dosen't contridict itself.

No, no it doesn't. Fortunately, nobody here is claiming it does.

"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--Mark 3:29

Notice the preceding verse:

Mark 3:28 ~ "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them." Whenever the Unforgivable Sin topic comes up, verse 28 gets ignored, and it's no wonder -- it says that all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. Which, of course, puts a huge dent in partialist soteriological arguments. Just as the single sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is seen to be an irreversible offense, it also says just prior to it that basically all mankind will be saved, because all their sins will be forgiven them.

So, if you're going to interpret verse 29 to say that there is this one unforgivable sin, then you also have to concede that all other sins out there will be forgiven, and this increases dramatically the number of people who will be saved in the end from the "few" to "almost everyone". Gee, which will it be -- if ya want the one, ya gotta have the other. Decisions, decisions!

You also have to realize that the only people who could actually blaspheme the Holy Spirit were those few who physically stood there and witnessed, first-hand, Christ performing His miracles and attributing those miracles to the devil, which is what blaspheming the Holy Spirit was understood to entail. This reduces the 90-something percent of humanity being doomed (to hear the average partialist pulpiteer tell it) to maybe 10 guys, maximum. No one else since that time could be doomed to hell forever for committing this particular sin, because no one since that time has had the privilege of being first-hand witnesses to Jesus' performing of miracles that they would have had the opportunity to insult Him in such a way. And as far as every other sin one can come up with, it says right there in verse 28 that those shall be forgiven them!

So, all of mankind, except for the handful of dudes who stood there in Jesus' physical presence and accused Him of having an unclean spirit, will be saved.

But wait, there's more! As for similar passages that go on to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in "this age" nor in "the age to come", they are referring, respectively, to the Jewish age (OT) and the Christian one (NT). Specific timeframes are being spoken of, rather than a blanket "never" or "forever and ever". As I have already shown you, Paul has indicated that there will be more ages to come.

P.S. Repent and stop spreading the false gospel.

Yeah, right back atya there, buddy! I already repented from spreading a false gospel, which is why I'm no longer doing so.


.

 

[Rajni]

What has to be remembered is that Christ operated in
dual natures - Man (with weaknesses and pain)
Deity - which was set aside for His mission.

He limited Himself and it wouldn't at all be odd for
Christ to ask they be forgiven; it does NOT mean
that they WERE forgiven if they didn't repent.

Christ called the Pharisees "sons of the devil", not
sons of God.
​

Did you know that Paul referred to himself as a Pharisee? (Acts 23:6) Since he is proof that "once a Pharisee always a Pharisee" ain't necessarily true, why consign all Pharisees to "hell" prematurely?


.

 

[LightSeaker]

What has to be remembered is that Christ operated in
dual natures - Man (with weaknesses and pain)
Deity - which was set aside for His mission.
​

Jesus, being God, operates United and Whole and One with all of Creation. There is no duality in Jesus Christ. The only reason why it appears like a duality to us is because in our own separation from God we perceived things as dual in nature.

.

 

[timlamb]

Sometimes soul and spirit is used interchangabily in some places, just to make it more confusing.

Can you show me where?

 

[timlamb]

Tissue;52398163]That's a bit of a jump. People who die without Christ are left with nothing else except evil?

OK, they are left without good, does that sound better. All GOOD things come from God, if God is not present what can be good?

There's a lot of stuff that is neither good nor evil. Like mathematics. Or culinary skills. Why would things like these disappear?

These are tools, they are only good or evil in how you use them.

And surely you don't mean to suggest that Christians are the only ones who have access to good-ness? Is it not possible that other religions provide a pathway toward a certain sort of righteousness, even if it is not as vibrant and complete as Christian righteousness? Atheists do many good things in the world. Perhaps they are being ministered to by the Spirit, even if they never make an explicit claim of Jesus. Is all of this lost the moment someone dies?

I suggest that goodness is only in a non-believer because there is the spirit of God in their midst here on earth.

If your answer to this is 'Yes', my follow-up question is 'Why?', and 'How the heck do you know that?'

I'm using some scripture and some specualtion. Just reasoning what happens at death from what scripture tells us. We know that for believers death means presence with God. I can only reason from the word that the opposite is true for non-believers.

No loving parent would shut the door on a child permanently.

As I have pointed out from the Word, we are not all God's "Children". We who accept Christ get the right to become children of the Most High God, and inherit His kingdom.

 

[Tissue]

OK, they are left without good, does that sound better. All GOOD things come from God, if God is not present what can be good?

Why does God completely abandon people he loves?

I suggest that goodness is only in a non-believer because there is the spirit of God in their midst here on earth.

Sure.

I'm using some scripture and some specualtion. Just reasoning what happens at death from what scripture tells us. We know that for believers death means presence with God. I can only reason from the word that the opposite is true for non-believers.

But eternity? When that clashes with the idea of a loving God?

As I have pointed out from the Word, we are not all God's "Children". We who accept Christ get the right to become children of the Most High God, and inherit His kingdom.

We are all his children. We all have the image of God, ja?

 

[timlamb]

Why does God completely abandon people he loves?



Sure.



But eternity? When that clashes with the idea of a loving God?



We are all his children. We all have the image of God, ja?

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Not all man are children of God
This seems to hold some clues to the eternal nature of things. Creation it’s self needs to be set free from corruption:

19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God….. 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
God does not let those who refuse His offer of adoption continue to corrupt the rest of creation.

So, putting some things together, we know that un-believers are not children of God, they corrupt creation, and the Father cannot look at them because they are not made clean in the Blood. Those “nice” people we cannot believe would go to hell are not so “nice” in God’s eyes. We would be the same to God if not for the restitution paid so that we may be blameless in the sight of God the Father.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=8&version=49&context=verse

Romans 9:8http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=8&version=49&context=verse
That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=8&version=49&context=versehttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=8&version=49&context=versehttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=8&version=49&context=verse

People will look Him straight in the eye and reject Him. I personally don't believe anyone goes to the Lake of Fire loving God, nor does anyone come out from it changed!

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Scripture shows us that even those who see the redemption of Jesus do turn back to corruption. The once again defile themselves, they are overcome instead of being over comers as Jesus calls us to be. Not all given the gift take it! Sad but just a fact as told in scripture.

 

[timlamb]

A lot of the theology that you hold to came from Origen.

.

No, I hold to scripture. Much of Origen I cannot find there.