Universalism

[timlamb]

Tissue asked:
Why can it not be received after death?
Why can he not make us righteous after death? Is he not powerful enough?
Why can he not make us righteous after death? Is he not powerful enough?

Tissue, all I know is when a believer dies they are "absent from the body, present with the Lord".
Everything would point to the opposite happening to a non-believer.
In this world and this life we are under His influance. We are loved with His love and touched by the compassion He has instilled in others. We see His handiwork and feel His power and His presence, and still most deny Him.

Passing from the body, into the spiritual and NOT "present with the Lord" we would naturally lose His influance. The evil and the earthly desire that is in them would be all that is left. That in it's self would be torment. To be left alone with our desires unfulfilled.

To go a step further, perhaps it is like Job. Perhaps there is a cosmic challenge, a wager layed down on us all. if he (satan) can keep us from faith until death, we are his.

Much of the bible is allegoric and litteral. Like when God brought the Hebrews out of bondage and then destroyed the non-believers. He could have left them behind but He brought them out and gave them every chance to believe and when the time came to purify His chosen people it was done.

I always pictured it like having ten kids and having to kick the eight rebels out to save the purity of the two who desired to live pure. It would break your heart but you would rejoice that you had two righteous children, and they would inherit all you had.

I have had people tell me they would believe if God Himself knocked on their door and said "Here I am, believe." We all know that happened in Jesus and only a few believed. Every day He knocks on the door of the souls of the lost and they reject Him. That will end.

 

[Tissue]

And if our conclusions about Him are wrong and in reality we are creating our own God?

In a manner of speaking, we all do that. None of us has a direct connection to God, such that the mind does not interact with our thoughts of God. Our concept of God is all built up in our brain.

If our conclusions about him are wrong, then we have an incorrect image of God.

 

[Nadiine]

Why can belief not come after death?

What is faith? The proven and seen?
Or belief in what we don't know for sure?

We are judged on this life - what we do here.
The truth is, once we die, we MUST have a blood covering to
cover our sin.
The penalty of sin is death; that is the cutoff. Death.

Once we're dead and SEEING GOD and the afterlife and His
judgment throne, that is no longer FAITH, it's proof and people
are then just wanting out of punishment.
That isn't TRUE remorse for sin that they refused to repent of.

Also, there's gnashing of teeth there - another indication of
anger and derrision, not repentance.

Judas was LOST - Jesus said so. None were lost but one.
The son of perdition. Where did Jesus say: "but hey, even
tho Judas is lost, he'll repent later once He sees me as God
in the next life".

Nobody has shown me where people repent and get out of
punishment, all I see are verses taken out of context and
a doctrine read into them to make them fit what people
want to be true.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue said:
Would a parent who cut off a child's arm as punishment for having pre-marital sex be justified?

You are measuring God's view of justice by ours. To God, for me to lust after your wife is adultry, to be angry with you could be the same as killing you.

To imperfect man, we go to one extreem or the other. We tolorate our child on drugs or even committing murder but a spit in the face might get them evicted. God says, "be perfect", and He takes nothing less.

Let's not argue the mosaic laws just for the jewish people shall we? We hold our own children to different standards than other children.

The point is, how far would you go to save the two who wanted righteousness?

I personally believe the unbelievers are removed from the loving kindness of Christ at the time of death, and so goes any heart of repentance. No one can come to the Father unless the Son draw him.

TISSUE, YOU ASKED A QUESTION AND I GAVE SEVER POSSIBLE ANSWERS, WHY DO YOU IGNORE MY RESPONCE? Except to compare my child rearing philosophy with the wrath of God)

 

[Nadiine]

In a manner of speaking, we all do that.

No, Tissue, we don't all do that if we're honestly seeking truth
in His word.
Take the issue of Calvinism/Armenism - I have always said that IF
God has chosen no option of choice for us and chose us to save
and others not to save, then who am I to judge God if that's His
method?
He's Sovereign, so I submit myself to Him in that possible truth
and just thank Him that He's chosen me.
I didn't make my own god, I submit to whichever way He's set up
salvation and judgment and love.

None of us has a direct connection to God, such that the mind does not interact with our thoughts of God. Our concept of God is all built up in our brain.

A believer has direct connections to God; His own Spirit dwells within
them and leads them into truth.
I know how you meant that statement, but I assure you, Christians
have alot more in common in belief than many may think.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD,
THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM?
But we have the mind of Christ.
(not my caps)

 

[Nadiine]

You are measuring God's view of justice by ours. To God, for me to lust after your wife is adultry, to be angry with you could be the same as killing you.

To imperfect man, we go to one extreem or the other. We tolorate our child on drugs or even committing murder but a spit in the face might get them evicted. God says, "be perfect", and He takes nothing less.

Let's not argue the mosaic laws just for the jewish people shall we? We hold our own children to different standards than other children.

The point is, how far would you go to save the two who wanted righteousness?

I personally believe the unbelievers are removed from the loving kindness of Christ at the time of death, and so goes any heart of repentance. No one can come to the Father unless the Son draw him.

TISSUE, YOU ASKED A QUESTION AND I GAVE SEVER POSSIBLE ANSWERS, WHY DO YOU IGNORE MY RESPONCE? Except to compare my child rearing philosophy with the wrath of God)

Good question - I'd expect that it's another attempt at showing
human reason instead of exploring God in the Bible.

Would ANY of us strike Anannias & Saphira dead on the spot
for lying? I wouldn't.
I also wouldn't have ordered anyone stoned to death for
breaking some laws in the OT (like gathering sticks on Sabbath) -
I also wouldn't have demanded animal sacrifice for atonement;
I'm an animal rights advocate.

Sadly, all my own logic & reason only prove that I'm NOT LIKE GOD
and I don't think like Him in my natural, carnal mind.

All I see is just another attempt at using secular reasoning &
judging God with it.

 

[Nadiine]

and again, all it exposes is the lackidasical view on how serious
evil really is.

When man can see sin like God does, then He can judge God;
instead, we have a corrupted, fallen creation, judging God by
their own fallen standards.

typical - and isn 't that what caused man to fall in the first place?

 

[timlamb]

and again, all it exposes is the lackidasical view on how serious
evil really is.

When man can see sin like God does, then He can judge God;
instead, we have a corrupted, fallen creation, judging God by
their own fallen standards.

typical - and isn 't that what caused man to fall in the first place?

Some things never change

 

[HighwayMan]

Good question - I'd expect that it's another attempt at showing
human reason instead of exploring God in the Bible.

Would ANY of us strike Anannias & Saphira dead on the spot
for lying? I wouldn't.
I also wouldn't have ordered anyone stoned to death for
breaking some laws in the OT (like gathering sticks on Sabbath) -
I also wouldn't have demanded animal sacrifice for atonement;
I'm an animal rights advocate.

Sadly, all my own logic & reason only prove that I'm NOT LIKE GOD
and I don't think like Him in my natural, carnal mind.

All I see is just another attempt at using secular reasoning &
judging God with it.

So...if a human does something horrible, he's wrong. But if God does the same thing, he is always right, because he is God?

Isn't that the scary double-standards only a tyrant would use?

And, taken into the context of hell, it's even worse. "Oh, I know from your mortal logic people burning in hell sound terrible, but since God is involved it's not, cause you don't get it." From my mortal logic raping then setting on fire an entire orphanage is wrong too, but I guess I shouldn't trust that either? Why trust or take into account our conscious at all if it is simply some "secular reasoning" that is meaningless to God?

 

[timlamb]

So...if a human does something horrible, he's wrong. But if God does the same thing, he is always right, because he is God?

Isn't that the scary double-standards only a tyrant would use?

And, taken into the context of hell, it's even worse. "Oh, I know from your mortal logic people burning in hell sound terrible, but since God is involved it's not, cause you don't get it." From my mortal logic raping then setting on fire an entire orphanage is wrong too, but I guess I shouldn't trust that either? Why trust or take into account our conscious at all if it is simply some "secular reasoning" that is meaningless to God?

Of course there are two standards, He is God, and I am not.

He didn't tell us not to judge because no one should judge, He said that because He reserved that right for Himself, only He can Judge perfectly.

If your child burned your house down playing with matches that would be wrong. But if you had plague infected rats in the house and burned it down only a mature child would understand, younger children would just have to trust you that you did the right thing and someday they would understand.

If you had two sons many years apart and the older one got strung out on drugs and was homocidal and might hurt or kidnap the younger one, you would do what you had to.

Non-believers are dangerous to the spirit of the saved. God does what He must and allows what He will and I don't understand, but I trust Him.

 

[HighwayMan]

Of course there are two standards, He is God, and I am not.

He didn't tell us not to judge because no one should judge, He said that because He reserved that right for Himself, only He can Judge perfectly.

If your child burned your house down playing with matches that would be wrong. But if you had plague infected rats in the house and burned it down only a mature child would understand, younger children would just have to trust you that you did the right thing and someday they would understand.

If you had two sons many years apart and the older one got strung out on drugs and was homocidal and might hurt or kidnap the younger one, you would do what you had to.

You would, hopefully, try to get him help or at worst hand him over to the authorities. Torturing him in a literal hell for all eternity though might be overdoing it a bit, but hey - it's just that crazy "mortal reasoning" of mine working again.

God does what He must and allows what He will and I don't understand, but I trust Him.

Trusting that there are many things about the workings of the world we don't understand and are up to God is fine. I believe we only see small parts of a much bigger picture in our time on Earth. But morality is a different category. We have been given the ability to discern between right and wrong, it's what separates us from the animals. Doing good, as we understand it from our given "human reasoning", is what drives us closer to God. But then we have to abandon this same God-given reasoning if it clashes with the eternal-hell version of God? When it comes to morality, we need to understand why something is good and why something is wrong. Anything else is being blind. And there is just no way of spinning a scenario in which someone is tortured for all eternity for his mistakes or ignorance on Earth as a morally good thing.

 

[timlamb]

You would, hopefully, try to get him help or at worst hand him over to the authorities. Torturing him in a literal hell for all eternity though might be overdoing it a bit, but hey - it's just that crazy "mortal reasoning" of mine working again.



Trusting that there are many things about the workings of the world we don't understand and are up to God is fine. I believe we only see small parts of a much bigger picture in our time on Earth. But morality is a different category. We have been given the ability to discern between right and wrong, it's what separates us from the animals. Doing good, as we understand it from our given "human reasoning", is what drives us closer to God. But then we have to abandon this same reasoning if it clashes with the eternal-hell version of God? When it comes to morality, we need to understand why something is good and why something is wrong. Anything else is being blind.

This is frustrating going back to square one with you but I will try to be patient.

The Lake of Fire was not created to torture man, it was created for the Devil and his angels. Second, the way my Bible reads, God sends away those who chose not to serve Him, it is their own desires and lusts and such that cause the torment. So believers recieve God's inheritance and those who chose not to believe in Jesus recieve Satans inheritance.


Revelation 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Read second Peter chapter 2 and the book of Jude. To deny that God seperates the sheep and goats forever is to deny scripture.

Read the bible and believe it my friend. Anyone who is not in heaven with us we will understand why. It IS urgent, share the Gospel.

 

[preistsplace]

This is frustrating going back to square one with you but I will try to be patient.

The Lake of Fire was not created to torture man, it was created for the Devil and his angels. Second, the way my Bible reads, God sends away those who chose not to serve Him, it is their own desires and lusts and such that cause the torment. So believers recieve God's inheritance and those who chose not to believe in Jesus recieve Satans inheritance.

so in your veiw God did not know that he would be sending people to the Lake of Fire.

 

[preistsplace]

By Highwayman

You would, hopefully, try to get him help or at worst hand him over to the authorities.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

know knowing that Jesus spoke in parables who was the Judge if not God Almighty

 

[preistsplace]

Tim Lamb said:

But if you had plague infected rats in the house and burned it down only a mature child would understand, younger children would just have to trust you that you did the right thing and someday they would understand.

This analogy is instructive to a point. However if the plaugue (sin) infested rats (unrepentant man) were to be tortured forever then it stops being an act of love for the Family(the saved) , it is then concerned with retribution .

 

[preistsplace]

This is frustrating going back to square one with you but I will try to be patient.

The Lake of Fire was not created to torture man, it was created for the Devil and his angels. Second, the way my Bible reads, God sends away those who chose not to serve Him, it is their own desires and lusts and such that cause the torment. So believers recieve God's inheritance and those who chose not to believe in Jesus recieve Satans inheritance.


Revelation 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Read second Peter chapter 2 and the book of Jude. To deny that God seperates the sheep and goats forever is to deny scripture.

Read the bible and believe it my friend. Anyone who is not in heaven with us we will understand why. It IS urgent, share the Gospel.

Just read 2 Peter chapter 2 and while it says...
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
that in no way contradicts our interpretation of the Bible when I came to Christ was not the old man crucified with Christ so that I became a new creation?
As a matter of fact taken literally this verse and many like it suggest anniahlation of the wicked rather than their eternal torment.

 

[preistsplace]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

to deny the salvation of all men is also to deny the bible my friend.

 

[Nadiine]

So...if a human does something horrible, he's wrong. But if God does the same thing, he is always right, because he is God?

Please tell me what God does that man does in sin.
I think if you're going to make the accusation against God,
you should specify what it is.

Isn't that the scary double-standards only a tyrant would use?

Tyrant? Double Standard?
For doing what exactly?

And, taken into the context of hell, it's even worse. "Oh, I know from your mortal logic people burning in hell sound terrible, but since God is involved it's not, cause you don't get it."

Well it's nice to see an admitting of what you really think about God.
I'd encourage you to look into that deeply. (I mean it sincerely)

You'de ONLY have a case against God if God didn't bother to
reach down and help mankind out of His sorry plight.

WELL HE DID!

He sent His Son Jesus Christ to suffer and die for sin, so that ALL
we had to do after that work is DECIDE to agree that we're sinners,
repent of our sin (*remorse for our evil and rebellion - turning from
staying in it) and accept that sacrifice; making Him our Lord.

How tough is that? HE DID ALL THE HARD WORK! He shed His
blood in our place and died to pay for all our sin and blot it right
out. What more could we want?
No, instead, we want to live in our sins & have our fun, then expect
God to wink and smile and herd us on into our eternal reward for
rejecting Him and being our own gods.
Brilliant. God is Just, that type of thinking makes God evil in that
He rewards evil and goes back on His word to eradicate evil in
the afterlife.

You'de also have a case if God didn't WARN US of the impending
consequence of rejecting our sacrifice (Christ) and refusing to
repent. He does, but then we have people who try to deny
that penalty and make people feel safe & happy about their
eternal fate even in that rejection of God. (Strike 2).

Strike 3 is that you're corrupted & tainted by the very sin He came
to conquer and that clouds your reasoning, so you are not fit to be any judge of God or His justice.

I'd have to ask you if YOU happen to know all the laws of the
universe? Do you know all the spiritual laws and how things
are and have to be?
I doubt it - and neither do I. If God went to such lengths to keep
people from such a place, then who are we to claim He's a tyrant
when we reject His provisions !?

Lastly, Job thought he had a case against God too - want to hear
God's reply to a righteous man who questions God?
If you know any of these things or can do any of these things,
then I'd consider you worthy to judge God.
The truth is, your accusations don't concern or change God
one bit. YOU are the one who owes answer to God.
(good luck with that!)

Job 40 )
1 The LORD said to Job:
2 "Will the one who contends with the
Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"
3 Then Job answered the LORD :
4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."
6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his? .......



Job 38 )


The LORD Speaks

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind ?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

 

[Nadiine]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

to deny the salvation of all men is also to deny the bible my friend.

Again, you READ IN your doctrine into a verse without seeing
the real meaning - it's an automatic for Universalists becuz
they cannot see past those coloured lenses.

Let me ask you this, is Satan the enemy of all men?
YES. But especially of the lost. Not near as harmful to the born again
believer becuz they have a hedge of protection and Victory over
him thru God. Yes?
Christ is also the Messiah of all men. Christ DIED to save all.
His TITLE is "Saviour"! =D He is literally the Saviour of all due to His sacrifice;
it does NOT mean that ALL recieve His atonement and call Him their Lord.

God is the Creator and Lord of all: all creation, all people, all things.
But even as He is Lord of all, not ALL recieve Him as such.
That doesn't make Him one's PERSONAL Lord and Saviour when
they reject Him.

Notice these verses:
2 John 1:9-11
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide
in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him
into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME,
YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

(those who continue to live in the practice of sin)

Romans 8:8-9
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him,
for he who comes to God must believe that He is
and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

You cannot take a verse and twist it to mean what you
want it to mean while invalidating other verses that clearly
teach that one MUST be born again & repent to be Saved
and pardoned of their sin.
Luke 5:32
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Atonement is mandatory before death.

 

[timlamb]

If I had ten children and eight of them rebelled to the point where I had to kick them out I would still leave the door open for them to return and hope they had lives where they would learn and be fruitful. I would never lock the door on them for ever.

And you are not omniciant, of course you would hold to the hope they would turn around.

That analogy is very simple and does not take into concideration the spiritual nature of God.

You about summed up the problem in our differences though. Uni's assume that all man would someday change if given the chance. The Bible is a hystory if God dealing with man in all type of circumstance. There was a time when just believing in God and following ten simple commandments got you there, along with some sacrifices and religious acts. Today nothing is required but belief and the change of your heart. He has shown us through the israelites as He took them from freedom to bondage to freedom with harsh laws and through it all they never came to a point where the rebellion stopped.

We speak as though we are ALL God's children deserving of the inheritance, but that is not true:
John 1:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)



11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Romans 8:16-18 (New International Version)

16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
1 John 3:9-11 (New International Version)

9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

God WILL save His children, all who believe on the name of the only begotten Son. Children of the Devil get the Devil's inheritance.