Universalism

[2 King]

I'll try not to. Wait ... uh-oh ... here it comes. And it's in pink!! 2 Peter 3:9 ~ "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Sorry. I couldn't help it.

Little something you should learn is that God can and does desire that people be saved yet His desire is not carried out.

With that said, repentance is something that God gives: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Tim. 2:25). The NASB, NIV, RSV, and NKJV say "grant them repentance."

If God wants all to be saved, why is it that God will not give to them what they need in order to be saved? Why doesn't He just cause people to walk according to His word? Can He do that? Yes He can: "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:27). So then, why then does God not grant repentance to all and put His spirit in them all so they keep His word? And let's not forget where Jesus said he spoke in parables so that people will not understand His meaning. Consider Mark 4:11-12, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven." Note that the parables are so that they will not see or hear. Paul states in Rom. 11:8 that God hardened Israel so that Israel would not see or hear the truth: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day." And to make things more complicated, God has commanded that Israel respond in faith to His call (Isaiah 42:18).

What are we to make of all of this? If it is God's will that all be saved, then why does He not grant them all repentance? Why does He not put His Spirit in all people? Why does He speak in parables so that people will not understand? Why did He harden Israel so they would not accept the Messiah?

It is because there is more to this whole issue than a simple, "God wants all people to be saved, therefore, they will be." There is more to God's will and purpose than a generic intention of saving all people.

 

[Rajni]

God dosen't force us, or else it's all pointless. because we couldn't resist.
already read the book, I also watched the youtube vid where Apologists strongly disagreed with it and pointed out it's faults.
That's why most Apologists don't right books with a set perspective.
I also disagreed with it strongly because
I'm part-time Calvinist (Kidding)

What book are you talking about? Are you referring to the link I gave you? It's not a book. Here it is again: "Clay, Meet Potter!" Check it out, you might find it eye-opening as far as thing's free-will-related are concerned.

Chaela previously said: In all accounts of healing in Scripture, Jesus told the person to be healed and they were healed. No moment of decision as to whether to accept or not to accept. He says it, and it's done. There's no voting on the matter conducted by the healing-recipient.

Funny, because he said according to your faith be it unto you.

In each and every case of healing in Scripture? Are you sure about that?

Their faith then was strong enough to be healed.

Where do you think faith comes from?

I noticed he never went to an atheist and said according to your faith be healed.?

Who's to say He didn't? Scripture says there are many other things He did that that are not recorded there.

John 21:25 ~ Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.


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Chaela previously said: Wow. Which god is this again? Where does Jesus say "you follow your father Lucifer then you're going to hell for eternity"? So it's done and there's nothing we can do about it if it means sending people to hell, but it's not done and there's someting we can do about it if it means He wills that all be saved and go to heaven for all eternity?

1.) Same God

Same god as who?

Chaela previously said: ROFL! It's always "taken out of context" to someone who doesn't agree. No surprise there, that's standard fare in online debate forums. I could just easily say the same but I never much cared for making claims about those on the other side of a discussion that could, in their estimation, apply just as much to me. I call that phenomenon "arguing with a mirror". It's so "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I-ish."

Are you always this eccentric? Sugar-rush?

I'm low-carbing at the moment, having said good-bye to sugar almost 3 weeks ago. What does sugar or eccentricity have to do with the charge of taking things out of context?

​

Chaela previously said: So, suffice it to say that, obviously your interpretation really works for you -- who am I to begrudge you that? "Be it unto you according to your faith."

You have much more to lose than I do.
I tell people they go to hell and burn for eternity if they are disobedient. They do God's will go to heaven, angels rejoice etc.
You tell folks, "You go to heaven regardless, of course if you misbehave you will be punished in fire for a set-time, but in the end you get to rejoice in heaven."
Now think a momment. If I'm wrong, and disobey then die I get a good punishment and end up in heaven. If you're wrong, and disobey then die, then you end up in hell for eternity. So...who loses more? me or you?

That depends. Upon whom do you believe our salvation is based? That's the determining factor. Your answer?

Also,how do you think God is going to respond to you when you see Him face-to-face, knowing that you loved a god you thought would torture people for eternity? Do you think loving such an entity will be considered a virtue in the courts of heaven?



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[Rajni]

Ah, so this is what it comes to, what doctrine makes you most comfortable. We are instructed to work out our salvation "in fear and trembling". Doesn't sound like the comfort zone to me. If your family and friends are alienated by the prospect of hell, they do not fear God. Until you have worked out your salvation, accepted Christ, believed in Him for your salvation, you should be afraid.

Let's take the working-out-salvation thing in context -- Catholics used to hammer me with this one back when I would debate with them as a Protestant so I've grown quite familiar with it, LOL:

Philippians 2:12-13 ~ 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.​

The reason given for the fear and trembling is not a fear of losing one's salvation, it's based upon Who it is who is acting within the believer to make them do and even just to will according to His good pleasure.



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[2 King]

Most of my answers are in Post #827
and in Post #828

What book are you talking about? Are you referring to the link I gave you? It's not a book. Here it is again: "Clay, Meet Potter!" Check it out, you might find it eye-opening as far as thing's free-will-related are concerned.

Book called: Inside Universalist Apologetics

In each and every case of healing in Scripture? Are you sure about that?

not sure.

Where do you think faith comes from?

Think? I know that faith comes from hearing. and hearing from the Word of God.
Ok, I see where you're going with this...

Who's to say He didn't? Scripture says there are many other things He did that that are not recorded there.

John 21:25 ~ Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.​

​

Likewise, whose to say he did?

Same god as who?

same one that destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, same one that spoke through all the prophets, same one in the entire Bible.

I'm low-carbing at the moment, having said good-bye to sugar almost 3 weeks ago. What does sugar or eccentricity have to do with the charge of taking things out of context?

It's completely irrelevant to "out of context" conversation.

That depends. Upon whom do you believe our salvation is based? That's the determining factor. Your answer?

Also,how do you think God is going to respond to you when you see Him face-to-face, knowing that you loved a god you thought would torture people for eternity? Do you think loving such an entity will be considered a virtue in the courts of heaven?

1.) upon Jesus, and Jesus only, who is God in the flesh.
2.) again, Jesus
3.) I think he'd say, "You showed greater love and faith by accepting what my Word said." After all, it takes greater love and faith to accept ways which are unknown to one.
4.) That's completely bias.

 

[Rajni]

Little something you should learn is that God can and does desire that people be saved yet His desire is not carried out.

As I pointed out before, Scripture is clear that He will do all that He desires. I realize fellow mortals may question that, but that's one of the reasons we mortals need a Savior. We really don't understand how powerful this God is!

With that said, repentance is something that God gives: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Tim. 2:25). The NASB, NIV, RSV, and NKJV say "grant them repentance."

Amen!!!!!! I totally agree with this.

If God wants all to be saved, why is it that God will not give to them what they need in order to be saved?

It's not that He won't; it's the timing of it:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him.
​

Not everyone gets it yet, but evidently everyone, ultimately, will.

Why doesn't He just cause people to walk according to His word? Can He do that? Yes He can: "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:27). So then, why then does God not grant repentance to all and put His spirit in them all so they keep His word? And let's not forget where Jesus said he spoke in parables so that people will not understand His meaning. Consider Mark 4:11-12, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven." Note that the parables are so that they will not see or hear. Paul states in Rom. 11:8 that God hardened Israel so that Israel would not see or hear the truth: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day." And to make things more complicated, God has commanded that Israel respond in faith to His call (Isaiah 42:18). What are we to make of all of this? If it is God's will that all be saved, then why does He not grant them all repentance? Why does He not put His Spirit in all people? Why does He speak in parables so that people will not understand? Why did He harden Israel so they would not accept the Messiah?

These are great questions. No matter what one's perspective, there are things God does that we just don't understand this side of heaven. Personally, I think it would be great if God just resolved everything right this moment with a wave of His hand. But my ways aren't His ways, and I figure He knows what He's doing. Perhaps He figures we'll enjoy the glories of heaven even more having gone through the obstacle-course of life than if it were just handed to us without any prior struggle. (Sort of like how iced-tea tastes so much better after eating a whole bag of really salty potato chips.)

It is because there is more to this whole issue than a simple, "God wants all people to be saved, therefore, they will be." There is more to God's will and purpose than a generic intention of saving all people.

Amen, there is more to God's will and purpose, much of which we might not figure out this side of eternity. However, there's nothing about the questions raised that nullify His stated intention of saving all mankind. Simply because it seems He's not saving everyone according to our preferred schedule doesn't mean He's not saving everyone at all.


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[red77]

Ah, so this is what it comes to, what doctrine makes you most comfortable. We are instructed to work out our salvation "in fear and trembling". Doesn't sound like the comfort zone to me. If your family and friends are alienated by the prospect of hell, they do not fear God. Until you have worked out your salvation, accepted Christ, believed in Him for your salvation, you should be afraid.

Oh please get real Tim. They're alienated by it because of the incomprehensible horror and senselessness of it. It makes no sense to them because they see no love, compassion, mercy or purpose to it. They despise cruelty and pain for 'pains sake. They have loved ones who have died. You have no business stating that the only reason they are alienated by it is because they don't fear God. But then again it just goes to show that fear is at the foundation of your doctrine. Perfect love casts out fear...

 

[2 King]

Chalea said:

As I pointed out before, Scripture is clear that He will do all that He desires. I realize fellow mortals may question that, but that's one of the reasons we mortals need a Savior. We really don't understand how powerful this God is!

I'm pretty tired and drained.

Your point of Isaiah 55:11 is and was irrelevant simply because God can desire one thing and yet ordain another. For example, it is clear that God does not want people to sin, yet Acts 2:23 states, "this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God planned that Jesus go to the cross. But in order to do that, men had to sin for it to occur. Did God want them to sin? No, but it was part of God's ordained plan.

Likewise, Herod (Luke 23:11), Pilate (Luke 23:24) and the Jews (Luke 23:21) all sinned in their efforts that lead to Christ's death. Yet is says in Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur." It was not God's will that Herod, Pilate, and the Jews commit sin, but it was the will of God that this come to pass. God's ways are not ours. He is sovereign of all creation and can even use sinful men to accomplish His will.

Consider Pharaoh. God told Moses to command Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 8:1), yet God says in Exodus 4:21, ". . . but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

Consider Sihon king of Heshbon. In Deuteronomy 2:25 God says He will put the fear of Israel in people's hearts. In 2:26-27 Moses sent messengers to King Sihon to allow his people to pass through the area. Yet it says in Deuteronomy 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

But this raises another question: Could God have prevented them from sinning? Yes he could have. Remember Abimelech in Genesis 20? He was the king in Gerar and Abraham said that his wife, Sarah, was his sister (Genesis 20:2). Abimelech would have sinned but God did not let him. In verse 6 it says, "And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her."

Okay, so why do I bring out so many "contradictory" verses dealing with God's will and purpose? It is to demonstrate that God can desire one thing and yet ordain another. He can desire all men be saved, but not ordain that it occur.

 

[LightSeaker]

It's not that He won't; it's the timing of it:
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him.
Not everyone gets it yet, but evidently everyone, ultimately, will.

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The main reason why I'm now a Universalist is simply because I don't know how to limit Jesus Christ. People try to do just that all of the time here. And I fully expect to see scriptural proof by those who disagree with me to prove that Jesus Christ is limited. But I still maintain that other than in the minds of man, God can not be contained. He is infinitely Universal.

Everywhere I turn my eyes...there Christ is...even in people who don't believe. Yes, I'm a Universalist. The Love and reach of Jesus Christ is so vast and so deep that it can not be bounded by words, beliefs or even by our images of what we think God should be. Like chaela says, not everyone gets it yet...but evidentially everyone, ultimately, will.


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[timlamb]

Oh please get real Tim. They're alienated by it because of the incomprehensible horror and senselessness of it. It makes no sense to them because they see no love, compassion, mercy or purpose to it. They despise cruelty and pain for 'pains sake. They have loved ones who have died. You have no business stating that the only reason they are alienated by it is because they don't fear God. But then again it just goes to show that fear is at the foundation of your doctrine. Perfect love casts out fear...

Hey, I'm as real as they come.

You cannot have perfect love castingout fear until you have perfect love. Until you are in saving grace, repentant and surrendered to Jesus, you better be working out salvation as told.

Alot of people get turned off from their faith because of the brutality of the OT. This is real life good vs. evil, God vs. all corruption. Why He even bothers is beyond me especially with everyone telling Him what He should do. We need to read the bible and just believe it. He says:
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
When God says that I'm going to believe it.

 

[red77]

I'm Sorry but I find this picture extremely funny.

LOL! ROFL!

hey i just like wildcats. That avatars been there for about 2 years as I aint been here in ages. I guess I should get rid of it if it's giving the wrong impression!

 

[2 King]

hey i just like wildcats. That avatars been there for about 2 years as I aint been here in ages. I guess I should get rid of it if it's giving the wrong impression!

lol, not at all. I just thought it was funny since it's mouth is open, at first it looked like a fake cat with no ears. I suppose that's because the black backround

 

[Rajni]

The main reason why I'm now a Universalist is simply because I don't know how to limit Jesus Christ. People try to do just that all of the time here. And I fully expect to see scriptural proof by those who disagree with me to prove that Jesus Christ is limited. But I still maintain that other than in the minds of man, God can not be contained. He is infinitely Universal.

Everywhere I turn my eyes...there Christ is...even in people who don't believe. Yes, I'm a Universalist. The Love and reach of Jesus Christ is so vast and so deep that it can not be bounded by words, beliefs or even by our images of what we think God should be. Like chaela says, not everyone gets it yet...but evidentially everyone, ultimately, will.

I completely agree, LightSeaker.

It really gets back to the three primary beliefs pertaining to God's salvation:

Calvinism teaches that God can save everyone, but won't.
Arminianism teaches that God wants to save everyone, but can't.
Christian Universalism teaches that God both can and will save everyone.

Out of the three, I find the last one to be the most glorifying and least limiting to God.

It was only after I came to the realization of this that God's peace truly settled into my heart. That "peace which passes all understanding" is much more of the norm for me than it is the exception. Perfect love truly does cast out fear!

 

[red77]

Hey, I'm as real as they come.

You cannot have perfect love castingout fear until you have perfect love. Until you are in saving grace, repentant and surrendered to Jesus, you better be working out salvation as told.

Alot of people get turned off from their faith because of the brutality of the OT. This is real life good vs. evil, God vs. all corruption. Why He even bothers is beyond me especially with everyone telling Him what He should do. We need to read the bible and just believe it. He says:
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
When God says that I'm going to believe it.

Do you have perfect love? It's no surprise that you dwell on fear as oppose to love because with your doctrine there's no choice. It's mired in it, and it shows.
I see you haven't even addressed my points as to why people are so alienated by your doctrine. No surprise there. compassion and empathy tend to be in short supply regarding eternal suffering and thats no surprise either.
You wonder why God even bothers because of 'people telling him what he should do'?! What do you think you do Tim?! You tell us that God can't restore His own world and why!

I'll ask you again. Would it annoy you if everyone were reconciled to God?

 

[timlamb]

Calvinism teaches that God can save everyone, but won't.
Arminianism teaches that God wants to save everyone, but can't.
Christian Universalism teaches that God both can and will save everyone.

And the Bible teaches what it teaches. God did not make mindless drones that simply need a push in the right direction like an old cow. He created beings that have souls and wills and and ambitions that either go with or against the clear teaching of God's Word.

Read it and believe it folks.

 

[LightSeaker]

I completely agree, LightSeaker.

It really gets back to the three primary beliefs pertaining to God's salvation:

Calvinism teaches that God can save everyone, but won't.
Arminianism teaches that God wants to save everyone, but can't.
Christian Universalism teaches that God both can and will save everyone.

Out of the three, I find the last one to be the most glorifying and least limiting to God.

It was only after I came to the realization of this that God's peace truly settled into my heart. That "peace which passes all understanding" is much more of the norm for me than it is the exception. Perfect love truly does cast out fear!

There's another option...though this may be a subset of your option 3.
And that's being aware of and living in God's Presence. In His presence is, as you say, a "peace which passes all understanding". Though for me I might add "a Love that passes all understanding" as well.

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[red77]

Chalea said:

I'm pretty tired and drained.

Your point of Isaiah 55:11 is and was irrelevant simply because God can desire one thing and yet ordain another. For example, it is clear that God does not want people to sin, yet Acts 2:23 states, "this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God planned that Jesus go to the cross. But in order to do that, men had to sin for it to occur. Did God want them to sin? No, but it was part of God's ordained plan.

Likewise, Herod (Luke 23:11), Pilate (Luke 23:24) and the Jews (Luke 23:21) all sinned in their efforts that lead to Christ's death. Yet is says in Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur." It was not God's will that Herod, Pilate, and the Jews commit sin, but it was the will of God that this come to pass. God's ways are not ours. He is sovereign of all creation and can even use sinful men to accomplish His will.

Consider Pharaoh. God told Moses to command Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 8:1), yet God says in Exodus 4:21, ". . . but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

Consider Sihon king of Heshbon. In Deuteronomy 2:25 God says He will put the fear of Israel in people's hearts. In 2:26-27 Moses sent messengers to King Sihon to allow his people to pass through the area. Yet it says in Deuteronomy 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

But this raises another question: Could God have prevented them from sinning? Yes he could have. Remember Abimelech in Genesis 20? He was the king in Gerar and Abraham said that his wife, Sarah, was his sister (Genesis 20:2). Abimelech would have sinned but God did not let him. In verse 6 it says, "And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her."

Okay, so why do I bring out so many "contradictory" verses dealing with God's will and purpose? It is to demonstrate that God can desire one thing and yet ordain another. He can desire all men be saved, but not ordain that it occur.

Hang on...

Doesn't God work all things out in accordance with the purpose of His will?

Does that mean that prior to creation God ordained that He wouldn't be able to fulfill what He desired to fulfill?

 

[red77]

And the Bible teaches what it teaches. God did not make mindless drones that simply need a push in the right direction like an old cow. He created beings that have souls and wills and and ambitions that either go with or against the clear teaching of God's Word.

Read it and believe it folks.

Didn't Saul get a "push" in the right direction? Or did he will to get knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus?

 

[LightSeaker]

And the Bible teaches what it teaches. God did not make mindless drones that simply need a push in the right direction like an old cow. He created beings that have souls and wills and and ambitions that either go with or against the clear teaching of God's Word.

Read it and believe it folks.

You talk "about" God's word as if from the outside. But move inside of Jesus Christ and experienced first hand the vastness of His Love and Blessings. I dare say that from that place in God that you will see that that reach of Jesus Christ is with out bounds or limits. Just as Divine Love is with out bounds or limits, so is Jesus Christ.


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[timlamb]

Didn't Saul get a "push" in the right direction? Or did he will to get knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus?

I never said we don't get pushed. I believe we all get a Damascus road experience, it's what we do with it that counts. I think at the throne of judgment every person will remember the moment they were spoken to or pushed and they rejected God. I don't believe anyone will go to hell without knowing why.

 

[timlamb]

You talk "about" God's word as if from the outside. But move inside of Jesus Christ and experienced first hand the vastness of His Love and Blessings. I dare say that from that place in God that you will see that that reach of Jesus Christ is with out bounds or limits. Just as Divine Love is with out bounds or limits, so is Jesus Christ.


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Those are beautiful words but not exactly Biblical. Christ offers to come into us, not allow us into Himself.

OK, scripture does talk about being "in Christ" but that is being "in" His teaching, and "in" His grace.

OK, I won't argue that point.

But being "In" Christ would never reveal anything that was outside His word. The word of God is called our sword, we are to study to show our selves approved. The feel good is nice, I love those moments when the Spirit moves. But Satan and immitate the "feel good" he cannot change the Word.

The Word says we become His children by accepting Him. We are saved through faith in Jesus. When He knocks if we let Him in He will dine with us. He is there but it is all about us moving toward Him, because WE moved away. You guys talk about how we believe God rejects, and God turns away His children. the truth of scripture is about us not going to Him. His sheep hear His voice. He goes looking and calls but we have got to go to Him.

If any are lost it isn't because He lost them it is because they chose to be lost. We all know the way home, but most will chose to set out on their own, and God respects that choice.