Universalism

[2 King]

John 16:7-11
But I tell you the truth, it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment. Concerning sin, because they do not believe into Me; and concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father, and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

I take it that if Satan is just symbolism then there is no way there can be a ruler of this world? And more importantly. If Hell isn't eternal, then I suppose Satan won't be in hell for eternity.

It sure is something how you eliminated Lucifer from the game so that hell really wouldn't be eternal, or else he'd go to heaven too.

 

[Nadiine]

John 16:7-11
But I tell you the truth, it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment. Concerning sin, because they do not believe into Me; and concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father, and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

I take it that if Satan is just symbolism then there is no way there can be a ruler of this world? And more importantly. If Hell isn't eternal, then I suppose Satan won't be in hell for eternity.

It sure is something how you eliminated Lucifer from the game so that hell really wouldn't be eternal, or else he'd go to heaven too.

interesting point --

I don't think people understand the concept that sin does not
just "go away" on it's own. Sin permeates and destroys everything
in its path and it doesn't stop until it's stopped by God.

This is where Christ came in. His sacrifice covers the sin and
is the ONLY blood that literally removes sin and erases it.

So what do the lost and Satan & all the demons do with theirs?
When they have rejected the ONLY atonement there is to
remove the sin?
They get contained in Gehenna eternally - becuz SIN IS ETERNAL.
And our spirits are ETERNAL.

God obviously knows that only one place can contain sin/evil
so that it doesn't escape to destroy and work evil in His newly
restored creation.
& what do we see happen in the future? God lets Satan back
out again - and with him being let back out, the SIN is back out
to work against people and tempt and corrupt them.

When it's contained, people are free from evil.
When people "die in their sins", they force God to contain
their sin (unrepented and unremoved) in Gehenna where it
cannot escape to harm anyone else.

Just like nuclear waste has to be stored properly for our safety.

 

[LJSGM]

And our spirits are ETERNAL.

I agree with you except when it comes to this addition to the scriptures. You need to provide scriptural evidence for this.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This says Four things to me:

1. Only God can destroy our souls
2. He uses kill/destroy interchangibly
3. Our souls CAN be destroyed/killed/anihillated, and this makes sense considering that what can be created can be destroyed.
4. Hell destroys/kills/anihillates the body and soul.

 

[timlamb]

I agree with you except when it comes to this addition to the scriptures. You need to provide scriptural evidence for this.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This says Four things to me:

1. Only God can destroy our souls
2. He uses kill/destroy interchangibly
3. Our souls CAN be destroyed/killed/anihillated, and this makes sense considering that what can be created can be destroyed.
4. Hell destroys/kills/anihillates the body and soul.

I think we forget there are three factors here, Body, soul and spirit.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I think this is an area I need to study in but it could be that the body and soul are anihalliated and the spirit lives on. Maybe the spirit of man was given eternal but the soul and body will be destroied. I wander what is seperated when spirit and soul are split?
James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

We read of the body and soul dying but not the spirit. IN fact, we seldom see the spirit and soul mentioned in the same verse or even context. Why? What is the difference?

 

[timlamb]

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Would it be correct to say that the spirit knows the soul?

Ever notice that in the NT the Spirit of God speaks to men, but the Holy Spirit indwells, are they two seperate spirits?

 

[2 King]

2 Peter 3:7
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Perdition = Eternal Damnation

 

[HighwayMan]

This is frustrating going back to square one with you but I will try to be patient.

The Lake of Fire was not created to torture man, it was created for the Devil and his angels. Second, the way my Bible reads, God sends away those who chose not to serve Him, it is their own desires and lusts and such that cause the torment. So believers recieve God's inheritance and those who chose not to believe in Jesus recieve Satans inheritance.


Revelation 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Read second Peter chapter 2 and the book of Jude. To deny that God seperates the sheep and goats forever is to deny scripture.

Read the bible and believe it my friend. Anyone who is not in heaven with us we will understand why. It IS urgent, share the Gospel.

No need, I just pocked in for a couple of posts. I've had this discussion a million times before and it has never led anywhere significant.

If we're arguing to what extent a single but popular interpretation of the Bible might lead one to believe in eternal hell while excluding "mortal reasoning", you'd have a point. There's a reason why so many believe it - especially if you're convinced that that interpretation is the holy truth and questioning it will get you thrown into that same hell it promises. It's very hard to look at things differently when you believe such a threat hangs over your head.

The problem is you believe you are arguing with people who honestly have not read/understood the passages you show them, and if they do they'll immediately repent and get on your side because they will have "seen the truth". But it just doesn't work like that.

 

[LJSGM]

What is the spirit? I believe it is the driving force of something. That's the best that anyone can understand it right now.

The Soul I think is who you are.

Our spirit is dead, in that we are spiritually dead. That is why we need a new life within us, that of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nadiine]

What is the spirit? I believe it is the driving force of something. That's the best that anyone can understand it right now.

The Soul I think is who you are.

Our spirit is dead, in that we are spiritually dead. That is why we need a new life within us, that of the Holy Spirit.

But we were spiritually dead before salvation -
and yet alive and operating.....

 

[LJSGM]

But we were spiritually dead before salvation -
and yet alive and operating.....

Yah, I have a feeling that the "breath of life" is a bit different then the "spirit" of man.

 

[Nadiine]

The problem is you believe you are arguing with people who honestly have not read/understood the passages you show them, and if they do they'll immediately repent and get on your side because they will have "seen the truth". But it just doesn't work like that.

I don't think that way at all, I've shown Jeh. Wit's proof that
they're teachings were outright false and twisted and it didn't
help any.

It takes God's work in people to change any beliefs - and it takes
honesty & humility on man's part

 

[LJSGM]

Sometimes soul and spirit is used interchangabily in some places, just to make it more confusing.

 

[2 King]

What is the spirit? I believe it is the driving force of something. That's the best that anyone can understand it right now.

What then of the following verse?
"Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud."- Proverbs 16:19

 

[Nadiine]

Sometimes soul and spirit is used interchangabily in some places, just to make it more confusing.

all's I'm saying is that before salvation, we're DEAD in our sin
& trespasses against God - dead in spirit.

But we HAD a spirit that was still viable and active in order for
God to even quicken it to life.

I don't believe in anihilationism - altho as I often say, I find more
credibility for it than Universalism.
Still tho, imo, it's no "payment for sin" to be dead and gone -
to know nothingness is totally worth living a full life my own
way; nothing gained, nothing lost.
In fact, anihilationism is a RELEASE from sin & penalty.

I didn't find that doctrine very concerning when I was lost - it
gave me no motivation to evaluate my lifestyles becuz what I
wanted to do far outweighed non existance.
Atheists believe in non existance after death too - they aren't
real worried about salvation either.

 

[2 King]

What is the spirit? I believe it is the driving force of something. That's the best that anyone can understand it right now.

I would have to disagree since I've run across the following verses.
"Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"- Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools."- Ecclesiastes 7:9
"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."- Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[Nadiine]

Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"- Ecclesiastes 3:21

I've been looking for that verse! thanks
(I always hoped this had something to do w/ animals in
heaven)

 

[2 King]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Sound [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]familiar? If anyone was openly hating, blaspheming, and rejecting [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]God, it was those who crucified Him. Jesus’ response? “Father [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]forgive them, for they know not what they do.” [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]All sinners will be saved. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. So, [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]if the person is in the category of “The Lost”, that person will be [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]saved, yes. People like to point the finger and provide examples of [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]those they feel are “worse sinners” than they themselves are, but [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]the bottom line is that if anyone here just in this discussion alone [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]can be saved, there’s no one out there who can’t be. We are all [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]equally undeserving of salvation, in God’s eyes.[/FONT] I know that's hard
on the ego, but there it is.

Nice person, if only you used it for sound doctrine.

Need a refresher? Here: http://www.christianforums.com/t5918149-16/

 

[Nadiine]

Chaela, I sound like a broken CD/record....
but AGAIN this is another example of what you guys
are reading into a verse with your coloured lenses.

Jesus ALSO asked the Father to have the cup pass
from Him as well. Which it did not.

You cannot read in your doctrine to a verse when it
directly contradicts other verses and have it be the case.

There is an unpardonable sin - that NEVER gets forgiven.
Matthew 12:31
[ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3
The Unpardonable Sin


28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—


Now if you want to deny these, fine - scripture teaches
otherwise.

 

[2 King]

You cannot read in your doctrine to a verse when it
directly contradicts other verses and have it be the case.

There is an unpardonable sin - that NEVER gets forgiven.
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3
The Unpardonable Sin


28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—


Now if you want to deny these, fine - scripture teaches
otherwise.

Thank you, Universalist Doctrine is contridictory.
The Bible is not contridictory, it can't be, or else the contridicting evidence would be concluded as heresy.

 

[Tissue]

Tissue, all I know is when a believer dies they are "absent from the body, present with the Lord".
Everything would point to the opposite happening to a non-believer.
In this world and this life we are under His influance. We are loved with His love and touched by the compassion He has instilled in others. We see His handiwork and feel His power and His presence, and still most deny Him.

Passing from the body, into the spiritual and NOT "present with the Lord" we would naturally lose His influance. The evil and the earthly desire that is in them would be all that is left. That in it's self would be torment. To be left alone with our desires unfulfilled.

That's a bit of a jump. People who die without Christ are left with nothing else except evil?

There's a lot of stuff that is neither good nor evil. Like mathematics. Or culinary skills. Why would things like these disappear?

And surely you don't mean to suggest that Christians are the only ones who have access to good-ness? Is it not possible that other religions provide a pathway toward a certain sort of righteousness, even if it is not as vibrant and complete as Christian righteousness? Atheists do many good things in the world. Perhaps they are being ministered to by the Spirit, even if they never make an explicit claim of Jesus. Is all of this lost the moment someone dies?

If your answer to this is 'Yes', my follow-up question is 'Why?', and 'How the heck do you know that?'

To go a step further, perhaps it is like Job. Perhaps there is a cosmic challenge, a wager layed down on us all. if he (satan) can keep us from faith until death, we are his.

Much of the bible is allegoric and litteral. Like when God brought the Hebrews out of bondage and then destroyed the non-believers. He could have left them behind but He brought them out and gave them every chance to believe and when the time came to purify His chosen people it was done.

I always pictured it like having ten kids and having to kick the eight rebels out to save the purity of the two who desired to live pure. It would break your heart but you would rejoice that you had two righteous children, and they would inherit all you had.

No loving parent would shut the door on a child permanently.