Universalism

[preistsplace]

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Tim Lamb I beleive this was the verse you quoted from Jude?

 

[preistsplace]

Jud 1:13 RagingG66 wavesG2949 of the sea,G2281 foaming outG1890 their ownG1438 shame;G152 wanderingG4107 stars,G792 to whomG3739 is reservedG5083 theG3588 blacknessG2217 of darknessG4655 for ever.G1519 G165
again the word used here in the original was aion. we have already discused that in other parts of this thread.
about literalism and the bible-the Bible is filled with symbolism and poetic language.If we take the whole thing literally then we are presented with contradictions.If we take part literally and part symbolically then we disagree on where to make the distinction.If we take the whole bible symbolically then the likelyhood that we would agree on any one verse becomesd increasingly slim. All of this just goes to show that you have to be led by the Spirit to truly understand and that in all probabitlity man is incapable of understanding everything contained there in the fullness to which it was written.

 

[timlamb]

Actually this was the original post:

Jude 1

The Warnings of History to the Ungodly

1Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

2May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. Keep Yourselves in the Love of God

17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

18that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
​

A warning of mockers, devoid of spirit, ungodly, "wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. "
"and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. " perishing in the rebellion; doubly dead!!

after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. He seperates the sheep from the goats. The beloved from "those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, " AMEN!!

20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
​

Let the Word of God speak for Him!

there are many parts that I believe back up eternal damnation. Read the highlights and see.

 

[2 King]

It's right there in the Scripture -- coming "ages". That would be
plural. I do realize it makes the "unforgivable sin" Apologetics a bit
less credible.

Where to begin....Let's see, oh! A lot of things are "right there" in the scripture Chaela, Such as "eternal fire" but not according to Universalists.

Really? So what is it about Freemasons that make them more
powerful than God? You might be impressed by the titles, but He
isn't.

More powerful than God? NO! NEVER!
More Satanic than Satinists, yes

I don't see how "brood of the Devil" will ever enter a stangers house.
Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter God's Kingdom.
What of Jesus saying, "You are sons of your Father, The devil". Why then if they are sons of the devil would God who is the Father of the righteous, let them in?

Now that you got right. Three's a charm, eh?

I don't know their hearts, but I'm not about to assume that the
human heart is stronger in the face of God's power than God is. I'd
rather err on the side of assuming He's all-powerful. It's a strange
habit of mine.

God...All-powerful? Yes.

I'm not understanding where you got the whole interpretation that I said the human heart is stronger than God.


Ok Chaela, I remember you giving me 1 Timothy 2:3-4.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

Does this verse prove that God will save all people? No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved." The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16). God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out? Well, yes and no. God wants that people not sin. Do they sin? Yes. Is God's will
accomplished in this? No. Is God in control? Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out. They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).

Consider the case of a righteous judge who must sentence a man to death. The judge is a good man, honest, and full of mercy. Yet, he must enforce the law set before him. Is it his will (desire) to sentence the man to death? No. But, because there are laws, he must enforce them. Likewise with God. He desires that people not perish, but many will because they reject God and His Messiah. They will then face the judgment of the Lawgiver. The Law will be enforced.
So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No it does not.

 

[timlamb]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In context this says all men who die, die beacuse of Adam. All men who live, do so because of Christ. If you use the whole word you would get that.

 

[Nadiine]

In context this says all men who die, die beacuse of Adam. All men who live, do so because of Christ. If you use the whole word you would get that.

And, lets pay attn. to context too:

who is 1 Cor 15 written to?

1 Cor 15

The Resurrection of Christ

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

The elect. Not the lost.
Paul's letter is to the gentile church at Corinth.

He also sets it up in context:

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.

ALL resurrect. All have eternal life.

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,
the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive

They all ressurect to face their judgment - Christians are judged
too (for service to God).

But [it's thru Christ that] we are ALSO spirit - that is created by GOD and returns to God for our eternal existance.

It's also teaching that since all are eternal beings (created in
God's own image), then all will live on AFTER death; in 2 different
places: the newly created earth or heaven
and Gehenna.

ALL are eternal beings - we have 2 lives: physical & spiritual.

What we do here constitutes our fate in the next eternal life.
That is repeatedly taught from cover to cover in the bible.

Revelation teaches that those who are made alive (resurrect)
also face "the 2nd death".

 

[2 King]

Is it heresy to believe that God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe? If so why?

Stop dodging, You know what I said, more importantly stop spinning, pointless straw mans are getting us nowhere.
As long as there is a conflicting opinoin on Eternity, the debate will go on

 

[Tissue]

I disagree that most cannot agree on what the bible says. Most, I agree, if going verse by verse, would find something they didn't translate the same. But most of the Christian world agrees we need a savior and Jesus is that Savior.

Oh, sure. But that's really basic. There's a lot more to Christianity than just that.

For the most part it is literal vs. allegorical. Those who believe litterally are largely in agreement, those who look at scripture allegorically don't have much basis for agreement.

I have never met someone who interprets all of Scripture literally. I have never met someone who interprets all of Scripture allegorically.

The majority of Christians, sadly, don't know what they believe, and when you tell them what the bible says they go "Oh Yeah? OK" Among true students of the Word, there are litteralists, and there is everyone else.

What does this paragraph mean?

 

[Tissue]

Let's suppose that Scripture actually does say what you guys think it does.

How does it overcome the contradiction of an eternal hell with a loving, omniscient, omnipotent God?

 

[Nadiine]

Let's suppose that Scripture actually does say what you guys think it does.

How does it overcome the contradiction of an eternal hell with a loving, omniscient, omnipotent God?

First off, it's YOU that has to prove the Bible says what
YOU say it does. It does not.

It's verses are twisted and read into saying what they don't say
and you lack any direct teaching of it as doctrine in Revelation
when it gives the chronilogical order of events to the end -

again, lacking evidence for your view.

That means that it's up to us to seek to understand GOD and
HIS views. Stop relying on our human judgment, human sight,
human perception.......

So let me ask you this, can you prove to the atheist how loving
God is when He lets little kids get molested, sold into prostitution,
kidnapped and murdered?
When He lets people waste away in hospices across the world -
when He lets the Sudanese get exterminated -
when He lets His own people get martyred out -
when He lets Aids pandemics orphan hundreds of thousands of Africans -
when He lets people starve to death -

I can list out tragedy after tragedy that God COULD HAVE
stopped or fixed that He didn't.

So does that prove God isn't loving and doesn't give a crap
about people? Even His own people who suffer for their faith?
OR, does that prove that God is love and has a purpose & plan and
even tho it's tragic, sad, horrific & painful, He has a reason for
it?

If we view what sin is and what gets rid of it, we'd see that God
HAS to send them into "isolation" away from what is regenerated,
or else sin never ends - then death, pain & suffering never end either.
(Which God promised to eradicate and set right).

When people die without atonement, they are then guilty to pay
for their own sin - the penalty of sin is death.
They cannot be restored and put back becuz their sin was kept
and unrepented and they rejected their atonement for it.

Consider sin nuclear waste - do you just put toxic waste in with
people where they live? Of course not - that's what God would
be doing by letting sin out of containment.

They die IN their sin - they own it, it is unpaid. The penalty/
sentence is eternal payment.

The only good news in that is that God IS keeping His promise
to free those who choose Him and righteousness from the ravages
of sin and all it does.
Satan, all sin and people who chose darkness over light, will be
removed from God's new restored world,
and there will be no more death and pain which is the result of
sin itself (seen in Genesis).

Also, don't forget that there are levels of punishment too.
I personally believe that many won't be in such horrific torment
24/7. I think separation alone is the torment - but others
will get worse for their evil deeds & motives.

THAT IS LOVE - people have a choice He gives them in the
capacity they are given revelation of Him.

 

[Tissue]

First off, it's YOU that has to prove the Bible says what
YOU say it does. It does not.

I'm not out to prove anything, sister. I'm here to attempt to work out a philosophical contradiction (which you have yet to address; only emphasize that you believe the contradiction).

It's verses are twisted and read into saying what they don't say
and you lack any direct teaching of it as doctrine in Revelation
when it gives the chronilogical order of events to the end -

Revelation is a political document, and should not be read as a literal account of the end of the world.

 

[texastig]

Just wanting to kickstart another discussion of universalism, as controversial as it is.

I'm sympathetic to the movement myself, but not enough to count myself among their number (yet, perhaps). I do find it practically impossible to be joyful if I include the doctrine of hell in my theology. I find it equally impossible to be melancholy if I remove the doctrine of hell in my theology.

I'm currently digging around some of the early (pre-Augustine) church fathers who did not support a doctrine of hell; I'm also looking in to Carlton Pearson's book 'The Gospel of Inclusion'.

Let's talk.

The prerequisite to going to Heaven is believing as John 3:16 says.
Thanks,
TT

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not out to prove anything, sister. I'm here to attempt to work out a philosophical contradiction (which you have yet to address; only emphasize that you believe the contradiction).

The reason you see it as contradiction is becuz you continue to
use human philosophy and reasoning rather than accepting that
God has a plan that you can't understand.

I used to think my parents were full of it when they'de tell me
that "this hurts me more than it hurts you" when I got a spanking.
I couldn't fathom how they claimed they loved me, then grounded
me or spanked me.

And while being punished doesn't equal Gehenna, the concept is
identical in what we SEE here and what really is in reality.

It's no contradiction whatsoever.

It also shows me our utter apathy and inability to view Sin for
what it really is; how evil it actually is.
MOST of this imo, is becuz people do not even view sin as
God does. or Satan for that matter.
If we can justify sin, we certainly cannot see why God would
have such a severe and permanent judgment for it.

Again tho, MAN'S ERROR - MAN'S FLAW due to corruption
as sinners. This is why a perfect and holy God is judge and
not us.

With that said, sin doesn't just "end" and "go away" without
blood atonement. This was why there was a sacrificial system
in place in the OT.
Those who refuse their only blood atonement, cannot get rid
of that sin any other way once they die. Once they reject
salvation BY FAITH and live by God's teachings, there's no
more hope for their sin to be removed.

They die in it and are responsible to pay the full wages (which
is what Christians do when they accept Christ - recieve His
payment over their sin so that IT'S REMOVED COMPLETELY).

Revelation is a political document, and should not be read as a literal account of the end of the world

Nothing I'm bothering to go into here.
But...... that's false also.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue;52386485]I'm not out to prove anything, sister. I'm here to attempt to work out a philosophical contradiction (which you have yet to address; only emphasize that you believe the contradiction).

Someone pays for sin. Always. If I take your car and total it and you forgive me, you have paid for my sin. Someone always pays. Christ paid a price we could never pay, but a gift cannot be given if not recieved.

God, in His perfect love, demads perfect righteousness. His perfect love could exist in nothing less. Jesus can make us perfectly righteous, but we must be willing.

Perfect love would not be perfect if it destroyed it's self in unrighteousness.

The problem is, we can argue the percieved contradiction of a loving God and torment, but the falicy of temporary, regenerative fire that cleanses is what takes us round and 'round.

Revelation is a political document, and should not be read as a literal account of the end of the world.

Then you have go to write off parts of alot of books because the Revelation of Jesus Christ is largely the assembly of the end times prophacy from old and new testements.

I don't think it is the prophecy you disapprove of, I think this is your problem:
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[Tissue]

The prerequisite to going to Heaven is believing as John 3:16 says.
Thanks,
TT

Why can belief not come after death?

 

[Tissue]

The reason you see it as contradiction is becuz you continue to use human philosophy and reasoning rather than accepting that God has a plan that you can't understand.

God says 'taste and see'. God wants us to know about Him.

All of our thoughts and knowledge about God occupies 'human reasoning'. Without 'human philosophy', you would have no theological understanding.

I used to think my parents were full of it when they'de tell me
that "this hurts me more than it hurts you" when I got a spanking.
I couldn't fathom how they claimed they loved me, then grounded
me or spanked me.

And while being punished doesn't equal Gehenna, the concept is
identical in what we SEE here and what really is in reality.

It's no contradiction whatsoever.

Loving parents discipline their children in the hopes that their children will learn a lesson. This is not what we find in hell. Justice leads to rehabilitation. Are some souls beyond the power of God to rehabilitate?

It also shows me our utter apathy and inability to view Sin for
what it really is; how evil it actually is.
MOST of this imo, is becuz people do not even view sin as
God does. or Satan for that matter.
If we can justify sin, we certainly cannot see why God would
have such a severe and permanent judgment for it.

Oh, you see sin like God does? What's it like?

Again, as we've been saying throughout this thread (probably twenty times by now), Universalism does not deny the evil-ness of sin. We agree with you that sin is super-evil. Instead, we emphasize the goodness of God. How can punishment without the hope for future rehabilitation be 'good'?

Again tho, MAN'S ERROR - MAN'S FLAW due to corruption
as sinners. This is why a perfect and holy God is judge and
not us.

With that said, sin doesn't just "end" and "go away" without
blood atonement. This was why there was a sacrificial system
in place in the OT.
Those who refuse their only blood atonement, cannot get rid
of that sin any other way once they die. Once they reject
salvation BY FAITH and live by God's teachings, there's no
more hope for their sin to be removed.

Situation: Woman lives her life. Is born into Buddhism, embraces it, and lives as a Buddhist her entire life. Dies without Christ. Recognizes punishment around her, realizes her mistake, and has a change of heart.

Why is Jesus' sacrifice no longer efficacious after death?

 

[Tissue]

Someone pays for sin. Always. If I take your car and total it and you forgive me, you have paid for my sin. Someone always pays. Christ paid a price we could never pay, but a gift cannot be given if not recieved.

Why can it not be received after death?

God, in His perfect love, demads perfect righteousness. His perfect love could exist in nothing less. Jesus can make us perfectly righteous, but we must be willing.

Why can he not make us righteous after death? Is he not powerful enough?

Perfect love would not be perfect if it destroyed it's self in unrighteousness.

Why is there no hope for purification after death?

The problem is, we can argue the percieved contradiction of a loving God and torment, but the falicy of temporary, regenerative fire that cleanses is what takes us round and 'round.

Absolutely not; as far as I can see, a regenerative fire is entirely consistent with the attributes of God, including his justice.

Then you have go to write off parts of alot of books because the Revelation of Jesus Christ is largely the assembly of the end times prophacy from old and new testements.

I don't think it is the prophecy you disapprove of, I think this is your problem:
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Regeneration. Rehabilitation. Punishment, sure, but not a mindless, horrific punishment.

Would a parent who cut off a child's arm as punishment for having pre-marital sex be justified?

 

[2 King]

Oh, you see sin like God does? What's it like?

Do you? Cause according to all the stuff that's been said thusfar. Universalists belive they see things as God does. Obviously, since they say that eternity is mis-translated.

Not to mention I recall you judging God by saying He is evil if he sends people to Eternity in hellfire.

Once again. Do you see things like God does? Yes, or no?

 

[Tissue]

Do you? Cause according to all the stuff that's been said thusfar. Universalists belive they see things as God does. Obviously, since they say that eternity is mis-translated.

Not to mention I recall you judging God by saying He is evil if he sends people to Eternity in hellfire.

Once again. Do you see things like God does? Yes, or no?

I do not see things like God does and I have never said that I see things like God does.

I am able to know things about God (that he is good, that he is eternal, that he is omniscient). This is through the blessing of faith (that is, bestowed knowledge) given by the Spirit.

From this knowledge, I can make further conclusions about God: if he is loving, then he wants what is best for us. If he is omniscient, then he knows what is best for us. If he is omnipotent, then he has the power to bring about what is best for us. etc etc

By drawing these conclusions, I am neither seeing things as God does, nor am I claiming to.

 

[2 King]

And if our conclusions about Him are wrong and in reality we are creating our own God?