Universalism

[ShermanN]

I realize that you're responding to someone else's post; I hope you don't mind me butting in.

then you admit to making assumptions of of something that neither clearly says "it wll not be fixed forever."
when they Biblical structure relys totally on "eternal"

If you're refering to the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, we don't know if it's a true story or a parable. Either way, it doesn't specify that the rich man's condition was unending. However, based un the Jewish beliefs of that day, it would have not been unending; rather, the relatives of the Rich Man would have publicly stopped mourning after 11 months because they believed that even the wicked would surely have passed through the fires of Gehenna and gone on to Gan Eden (Paradise) by then. So understanding the cultural context proves again to be key to understanding the text. In other words, because of the then current beliefs of the Jews, when Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, they would have assumed that the Rich Man's torment was only for a season, an age, an eon.

sounds like by being sent to hell they're eating of the fruit they bore.

Many believe that the "demons" that actually are used to purify us in the afterlife, are demons of our own making. In other words, the very sins and wicked practices of life that we're given over to in this life are revealed for what they are in the hereafter and assail us until we repent of them. We really do "come to ourselves" and come to recognize how bad we've been, how destructive evil is, and how good God is. Let's not be fooled, what we sow we will reap! - us Christians too!!!! If we sow to the flesh, we'll reap destruction; but if we sow to the Spirit, we'll reap heavenly life!!!! In this life and the life to come!

So burning in hell and feeling fire burn your flesh constantly is chastisement? out of Fatherly love? No it's just and righteous inheritance of the wicked. Eternity. Eternity. Eternity. If that's so hard to grasp then...well....it's a shame, souls burn in hell for "eternity." That's why Evangelicals aren't wasting their time saying, "You'll only go to hell for a set time."
No. Instead they preach the un-altered Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because they know if those souls continue on in their corrupt wickedness they will go and burn for Eternity. God offered us a deal. The way I see it is, if you don't take the deal, then you're an idiot and you inherit opposite of the deal.

The problem with the traditiona Evangelical doctrine of "Hell" is that scripture (in it's original languages and cultural context) does not indicate the "certainty of endless torture"! The Good News is the Certainty of Salvation in Christ for all of humanity because of the sacrifice of Christ. Salvation is completely a work of Grace - inspite of our wisdom or foolishness. Salvation is completely undeserved by us all, and yet God gives it to us all. "What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Rom.3.3-4). God is faithful to save us, even though we're unfaithful! Praise God! Salvation is wholy a work of Grace!

I hear universalists say, "Satan dosen't exist."

Is Satan a literal being or just the personification of evil? It really doesn't matter, because we all know from experience that "evil exists"! What matters is that God IS, and Jesus is the Savior of all humanity, especially those who believe! Jesus did not come to condemn the lost, but to save us. And He said that through His sacrifice He would draw All Humanity to Himself! The revelation of the love of God through the sacrifice of Christ is like an irresistable magnet that draws all humanity to Him. God will eventually accomplish everything He set out to do - the reconciliation of everything and everyone!

Oh....well how convienient for you. I suppose that means then that there isn't a spiritual battle for your souls then and thus you are promised heaven. How very convienient. I suppose Jesus was lying when he said. "The theif comes to steal, kill, and destroy." There must not be a theif then. And more importantly, how can a theif steal, kill, and destroy if in the end we all go to heaven?

Of course there is a spiritual battle for the souls of men. But do you actually believe that Jesus is the looser?! Of course not! Jesus is the Victor and He will triumph over every enemy - even death and hades will be burnt up in the fire of the revelation of His Sacrifice (Lamb) and His provision (angels)! The thief might have stolen, but our God is surely capable to take it all back!

Shoot, according to the traditional errant doctrine of Hell, Jesus actually ends up loosing most of humanity and the devil wins! But praise God! I've read The Book, and in the end Jesus Wins! Jesus is the Winner and reigns over All! Of the increase of His Kingdom there is No End!

 

[ShermanN]

NOTHING leads us to see that they can repent after they die,
in fact scripture says "you will die IN YOUR SINS". John 8.
Dying in your sin means that you are dead in your trespasses.

To die in you sins simply means to die without knowing experientially the forgiveness of God. It does not meant that there is not repentance and salvation in the afterlife. Peter even says that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. And what was Jesus anointed to preach, except, Good news, delieverance to the prisoners! Paul also spoke affirmingly of the baptism for the dead. And Jesus warned of Gehenna which too the 1st Century Jew would have spoken of remedial punishment and purification in the afterlife before one was admitted to Gan Eden (Paradise).

Repentance also isn't salvation-
Salvation is ONLY by faith. Faith is long gone once one dies
and SEES the afterlife is fact and that they must stand to face
judgment....

There are various aspects to the word faith, but the primary connotation in regards to salvation is Trust. One's trust is in the Lord. Whether one "sees" the Lord or not is not the issue, but whether one "trusts" in the Lord. Paul came to faith in Jesus only after Jesus personally appeared to him. So Paul's faith was not because he didn't see Jesus but because he did see Jesus. Faith and sight are not mutually exclusive, at least in the context of salvation. Of course, "faith" is also spoken of in relationship to having a confident expectation of things to come that are not here yet, not currently seen.

And btw, faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. When one embraces faith, one repents from doubt and unbelief.

Also, the lost are seen "gnashing their teeth" - that's derision and
hostility; hardly repentant in spirit.

Actually, "gnashing of teeth" speaks of terrible remorse, even anger with one's self, which is very connected with repentance. I don't know if you've ever experienced the judgment of the Lord, but it does work in you a terrible repentance and remorse, weeping and gnashing of teeth!

Sorry, you cannot take what it doesn't say to form doctrine
around it.

ps: can you show us at the end of Revelation where the lost at
judgment are repenting and then get released from punishment
or don't get sentenced at all becuz they repented?

It SHOULD be detailed for us in Revelation where the account of
the judgment is given in chronological order.

Actually, brimstone means "divine fire". It was fire not created by man like lightening, lava, or even hot springs - all of which are related to sulfur. Sulfur itself was called brimstone. And the Greeks and Romans burnt sulfur as an inscence for purification and for healing.

Fire itself was used for the purification of metals. Fire, though it be continuous, is used to change the characteristics of whatever is being burnt by it. God is called a "consuming fire". And Rev. 14.10 says that the lake that burns with fire and brimstone is in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels. Thus, to the 1st century Greco-Roman audience, the metaphor of "the lake that burns with fire and brimstone" would have spoken of purification and healing - not endless torture. A good dynamic translation would be "the volcanic lake of the burning purifying, healing presence of God" and speaks metaphorically of an overwhelming revelation of the awesome sacrifice of Christ (the Lamb) and the amazing daily provision of God (the angels).

In fact, it reminds me of Is. 6, when Isaiah "saw the Lord" and fell in repentance crying "Woe is me! I'm a mess and everyone I know is a mess!" But the Lord took a COAL (brimstone?) from the altar and purged him of his sins.

So if one understands that fire and brimstone speaks of purification and healing, then Revelations certainly does speak of repentance in the afterlife.

Love Never Fails! Love doesn't give up. Love keeps no record of wrongs. Love thinks the best, hopes for the best, and even trusts. Love never fails.

If love never fails, why would we ever think that God fails in saving anyone! Jesus really is the savior of all humanity, especially us who believe!

 

[timlamb]

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Enough said!

Sinful man will not repent once they have heard the way and turn back they are like a dog who eats his vomit and worse off than the ignorant. Darkest blackness is reserved fro them, the accursed brood, "They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. "

Let the word of God speak for it's self! AMEN!

 

[Nadiine]

I think it's this type of emphatic teaching that shows us
the seriousness of refusing so great a Salvation;
and insulting the Spirit of God.
Counting Jesus not worthy of being Lord and Saviour to
His own creation.

The seriousness of it is proof that people just don't
slide on in later.
Judas "repented" of his betrayal of Christ and yet
Christ said he was LOST and the son of perdition.
ALL were kept but the 1.

It refutes the gospel to lull people into spiritual slumber
by reassuring them eternal life in heaven when they
reject Jesus Christ who died for them.

If people want to peddle a doctrine like this, they
HAVE to show in Revelation where the judgment takes
place, where they are sentenced to eternal separation -
BUT THEN SUDDENLY REPENT AND GET RELEASED FROM
GEHENNA afterward.

It's not present in the judgment & restoration account
where it should be if it's doctrine.

 

[brinny]

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction


1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

Enough said!

Sinful man will not repent once they have heard the way and turn back they are like a dog who eats his vomit and worse off than the ignorant. Darkest blackness is reserved fro them, the accursed brood, "They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. "

Let the word of God speak for it's self! AMEN!

Amen. His truth will reign and ring forth. God Almighty Himself declares that His Word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish that which He sets it out to do. And those with ears to hear will give heed to it. He is a holy God. He abhors sin. Those making light of His only begotten Son's dire sacrifice, will be held accountable. On that Great Day of reckoning, that day of Judgement, there will be no place to hide, for even the mountains would have already fled from the face of the One Who sits on the throne.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

 

[Tissue]

NOTHING leads us to see that they can repent after they die,
in fact scripture says "you will die IN YOUR SINS". John 8.

That at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

If that's not enough, then I would point out that the three statements 'God is love', 'God is omniscient', and 'God is omnipotent' are proof enough for me that there is no eternal hell.

 

[Rajni]

I totally forgot about how Universalists use the "coming age" Apologetics.

It's right there in the Scripture -- coming "ages". That would be
plural. I do realize it makes the "unforgivable sin" Apologetics a bit
less credible.

Sorry but you can't say that about Free Masons. Good luck defending them.

Really? So what is it about Freemasons that make them more
powerful than God? You might be impressed by the titles, but He
isn't.

By the way, you don't know their hearts either.

Now that you got right. Three's a charm, eh?

I don't know their hearts, but I'm not about to assume that the
human heart is stronger in the face of God's power than God is. I'd
rather err on the side of assuming He's all-powerful. It's a strange
habit of mine.



/

 

[brinny]

That at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

If that's not enough, then I would point out that the three statements 'God is love', 'God is omniscient', and 'God is omnipotent' are proof enough for me that there is no eternal hell.

All will be compelled to bow, the redeemed and the evil. Satan and his minions will be compelled to bow and acknowledge Jesus the Christ, Who will then be Conqueror. The day of grace will be over, nevermore to be available. Of course, God Almighty's children bow now and fear Him/honor and respect Him and the bowing is because of that love, honoring, and acknowledging Him as Lord. Others will be compelled to bow later on that Great Day of reckoning as His eyes bore into each of theirs, causing each to shrivel in horror and inexplicable fear and trembling as they shreik...yet there will be no place to escape for they will be compelled to be on their knees as sentence is pronounced on each, slowly and excruciatingly.

It will be the Terrible Day of the Lord. And His face, His holy face will be a terrible thing to behold, because His wrath, in all of its fury will be poured out on those who disdained and cast asunder His Son's grace when the door of grace was open.

 

[Rajni]

That at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

If that's not enough, then I would point out that the three statements 'God is love', 'God is omniscient', and 'God is omnipotent' are proof enough for me that there is no eternal hell.

 

[Tissue]

All will be compelled to bow, the redeemed and the evil. Satan and his minions will be compelled to bow and acknowledge Jesus the Christ, Who will then be Conqueror. The day of grace will be over, nevermore to be available. Of course, God Almighty's children bow now and fear Him/honor and respect Him and the bowing is because of that love, honoring, and acknowledging Him as Lord. Others will be compelled to bow later on that Great Day of reckoning as His eyes bore into each of theirs, causing each to shrivel in horror and inexplicable fear and trembling as they shreik...yet there will be no place to escape for they will be compelled to be on their knees as sentence is pronounced on each, slowly and excruciatingly.

That's a lot of stuff you're adding to the text. I don't see compulsion anywhere in there.

 

[preistsplace]

Amen. His truth will reign and ring forth. God Almighty Himself declares that His Word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish that which He sets it out to do. And those with ears to hear will give heed to it. He is a holy God. He abhors sin. Those making light of His only begotten Son's dire sacrifice, will be held accountable. On that Great Day of reckoning, that day of Judgement, there will be no place to hide, for even the mountains would have already fled from the face of the One Who sits on the throne.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

we all agree that God abhors SIN., if we were pating attention to the almost 70 pages of that thread we would see that that point has been established by both sides, we are in disagreement about his feelings and the eternal destiny of the SINNER. I believe (with very strong Biblical support) that while he hates the sin he loves the sinner, he even paid the price for the sin of the world( notice how sin is singular in that verse)
we are only speaking of judgement here which both sides are in agreement

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
All will be compelled to bow, the redeemed and the evil. Satan and his minions will be compelled to bow and acknowledge Jesus the Christ, Who will then be Conqueror. The day of grace will be over, nevermore to be available. Of course, God Almighty's children bow now and fear Him/honor and respect Him and the bowing is because of that love, honoring, and acknowledging Him as Lord. Others will be compelled to bow later on that Great Day of reckoning as His eyes bore into each of theirs, causing each to shrivel in horror and inexplicable fear and trembling as they shreik...yet there will be no place to escape for they will be compelled to be on their knees as sentence is pronounced on each, slowly and excruciatingly.

That's a lot of stuff you're adding to the text. I don't see compulsion anywhere in there.

It is written quite clearly, as you stated yourself, ALL will bow their knee and declare Jesus the Christ as Lord. It is quite clear this will not be a happy declaration, but a compulsion. Satan and all of his minions will also be among the knee-benders. They will have no choice. All will be made clear as crystal then. ALL will see the workings of God's enemy, his minions, and his followers......for it was in the beginning Satan said "Did God really say...?" And his minions and followers still echo it to this day. The father of lies will be exposed and all who followed him will be exposed for the enemies of God they are. Under the glaring holy Light of the One on the throne, their lies and deception will be exposed, anmd their hatred of God even then, for they do not bow the knee because they love God, buit because under the glaring light of truth they are compelled to.

Satan himself will confess Jesus the Christ as the rightful Lord, Conqueror, and confess his lies before the Holy One on the throne. This will not be the "day of salvation". That door will have been closed. God's children have already confessed Jesus as the Christ and will be among those watching the wicked confess it out of compulsion, who are still hating and despising God, and unable to flee from His presence. This is what the warnings have been throughout His Word. In what Jesus the Christ Himself declared. This is the dreaded day of the Lord. Just as God Himself shut the door to Noah's ark, God will have already shut the door to grace. There will be no more hope for those who toyed with God's Way of salvation and swatted at His mercy as if it were a fly. His full wrath will be poured out on that day.

"It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

 

[Rajni]

That's a lot of stuff you're adding to the text. I don't see compulsion anywhere in there.

According to Scripture, no one is even able to confess Jesus as Lord
without the Holy Spirit's enabling (1 Cor 12:1). So, if they're
confessing Jesus as Lord, they've already got the Spirit and are
therefore believers, and believers don't end up in the lake of fire.

.

 

[timlamb]

Jude 1

The Warnings of History to the Ungodly

1Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

2May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. Keep Yourselves in the Love of God

17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

18that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

A warning of mockers, devoid of spirit, ungodly, "wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. "
"and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. " perishing in the rebellion; doubly dead!!

after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. He seperates the sheep from the goats. The beloved from "those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, " AMEN!!

20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Let the Word of God speak for Him!

 

[Rajni]

To die in you sins simply means to die without knowing experientially the forgiveness of God. It does not meant that there is not repentance and salvation in the afterlife. Peter even says that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. And what was Jesus anointed to preach, except, Good news, delieverance to the prisoners! Paul also spoke affirmingly of the baptism for the dead. And Jesus warned of Gehenna which too the 1st Century Jew would have spoken of remedial punishment and purification in the afterlife before one was admitted to Gan Eden (Paradise).



There are various aspects to the word faith, but the primary connotation in regards to salvation is Trust. One's trust is in the Lord. Whether one "sees" the Lord or not is not the issue, but whether one "trusts" in the Lord. Paul came to faith in Jesus only after Jesus personally appeared to him. So Paul's faith was not because he didn't see Jesus but because he did see Jesus. Faith and sight are not mutually exclusive, at least in the context of salvation. Of course, "faith" is also spoken of in relationship to having a confident expectation of things to come that are not here yet, not currently seen.

And btw, faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. When one embraces faith, one repents from doubt and unbelief.



Actually, "gnashing of teeth" speaks of terrible remorse, even anger with one's self, which is very connected with repentance. I don't know if you've ever experienced the judgment of the Lord, but it does work in you a terrible repentance and remorse, weeping and gnashing of teeth!



Actually, brimstone means "divine fire". It was fire not created by man like lightening, lava, or even hot springs - all of which are related to sulfur. Sulfur itself was called brimstone. And the Greeks and Romans burnt sulfur as an inscence for purification and for healing.

Fire itself was used for the purification of metals. Fire, though it be continuous, is used to change the characteristics of whatever is being burnt by it. God is called a "consuming fire". And Rev. 14.10 says that the lake that burns with fire and brimstone is in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels. Thus, to the 1st century Greco-Roman audience, the metaphor of "the lake that burns with fire and brimstone" would have spoken of purification and healing - not endless torture. A good dynamic translation would be "the volcanic lake of the burning purifying, healing presence of God" and speaks metaphorically of an overwhelming revelation of the awesome sacrifice of Christ (the Lamb) and the amazing daily provision of God (the angels).

In fact, it reminds me of Is. 6, when Isaiah "saw the Lord" and fell in repentance crying "Woe is me! I'm a mess and everyone I know is a mess!" But the Lord took a COAL (brimstone?) from the altar and purged him of his sins.

So if one understands that fire and brimstone speaks of purification and healing, then Revelations certainly does speak of repentance in the afterlife.

Love Never Fails! Love doesn't give up. Love keeps no record of wrongs. Love thinks the best, hopes for the best, and even trusts. Love never fails.

If love never fails, why would we ever think that God fails in saving anyone! Jesus really is the savior of all humanity, especially us who believe!

 

[timlamb]

Even with all the warnings of evil men, jude encourages the Saints to reach out to others in mercy!

22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

To save others is to bring them out of the fire, though the be so soiled by sin their clothing is stained

24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

But the Saints may have confidence that the Lord is able to keep them from stumbling, and make them blameless on the day of judgment, unlike those mentioned earlier that he warned the Saints about.

 

[Tissue]

It is written quite clearly, as you stated yourself, ALL will bow their knee and declare Jesus the Christ as Lord. It is quite clear this will not be a happy declaration, but a compulsion.

It isn't at all clear that it will not be happy. It isn't at all clear that it will not be good. It isn't at all clear that it will be compelled. You are reading that into the text. Perhaps you are so convinced that your view is the case that you are unable to remove your view from the text itself, but it most certainly is not explicitly (or even implicitly) in there.

Satan and all of his minions will also be among the knee-benders.

Origen was of the opinion that even Satan would be reconciled.

 

[brinny]

It isn't at all clear that it will not be happy. It isn't at all clear that it will not be good. It isn't at all clear that it will be compelled. You are reading that into the text. Perhaps you are so convinced that your view is the case that you are unable to remove your view from the text itself, but it most certainly is not explicitly (or even implicitly) in there.



Origen was of the opinion that even Satan would be reconciled.

Origen? What or who is that? And where in God's Word is that found?

 

[timlamb]

That's a lot of stuff you're adding to the text. I don't see compulsion anywhere in there.

Speaking of adding to the text:

Originally Posted by ShermanN

To die in you sins simply means to die without knowing experientially the forgiveness of God. It does not meant that there is not repentance and salvation in the afterlife. Peter even says that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. And what was Jesus anointed to preach, except, Good news, delieverance to the prisoners! Paul also spoke affirmingly of the baptism for the dead. And Jesus warned of Gehenna which too the 1st Century Jew would have spoken of remedial punishment and purification in the afterlife before one was admitted to Gan Eden (Paradise).



There are various aspects to the word faith, but the primary connotation in regards to salvation is Trust. One's trust is in the Lord. Whether one "sees" the Lord or not is not the issue, but whether one "trusts" in the Lord. Paul came to faith in Jesus only after Jesus personally appeared to him. So Paul's faith was not because he didn't see Jesus but because he did see Jesus. Faith and sight are not mutually exclusive, at least in the context of salvation. Of course, "faith" is also spoken of in relationship to having a confident expectation of things to come that are not here yet, not currently seen.

And btw, faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. When one embraces faith, one repents from doubt and unbelief.



Actually, "gnashing of teeth" speaks of terrible remorse, even anger with one's self, which is very connected with repentance. I don't know if you've ever experienced the judgment of the Lord, but it does work in you a terrible repentance and remorse, weeping and gnashing of teeth!

​

Actually, brimstone means "divine fire". It was fire not created by man like lightening, lava, or even hot springs - all of which are related to sulfur. Sulfur itself was called brimstone. And the Greeks and Romans burnt sulfur as an inscence for purification and for healing.

Since when did we start following the Greeks and Romans? And which one of them thought sulfur burning was "divine fire"? It stinks!

And Rev. 14.10 says that the lake that burns with fire and brimstone is in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels.

Well, Not exactly!
Revelation 14:10 (New American Standard Bible)


10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Thus, to the 1st century Greco-Roman audience, the metaphor of "the lake that burns with fire and brimstone" would have spoken of purification and healing - not endless torture. A good dynamic translation would be "the volcanic lake of the burning purifying, healing presence of God" and speaks metaphorically of an overwhelming revelation of the awesome sacrifice of Christ (the Lamb) and the amazing daily provision of God (the angels).

First, you assume that this was written judt to 1st century greeks and romans. Then you go on to add words to scripture. The bible doesn't mention any end product from the Lake of Fire.

So if one understands that fire and brimstone speaks of purification and healing, then Revelations certainly does speak of repentance in the afterlife.

So you believe Satan and his demons, the anti christ and the false prophet, Death and Hades, will all be purified in the LOF and come into the Kingdom? You read alot into scripture.
"Tissue;52376929]That's a lot of stuff you're adding to the text." I agree tissue!

 

[Tissue]

Origen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia