Universalism

[peace4ever]

The Bible is about the sovereignty of God, and ultimate victory over sin, as portrayed on the cross. Victory over death. Such themes can certainly extend beyond simple 'partial salvation'.

Christianity certainly isn't all about feeling good, but the theme of joy is a thick strand throughout Scripture.



Pretty sure you made up the sentences in bold.

Satan told them they would not die from eating the fruit. It seems to me that he was referring to a physical death (though, it is rather hard to tell, as it seems unlikely that Adam or Eve would have properly understood death). I think it would be very difficult to put together a compelling case that the serpent (who is never called 'Satan', by the way) was referring to eschatology.



This is what I call a 'heat-seeking missile'. Heat-seeking missiles are verses that can be used in a large variety of circumstances, as they are quite general in their scope, and are often employed by people who wish to set their own belief (which is the right one) apart from the one that God despises (which is the wrong one). Problem is, there's nothing in the verse that actually makes any distinctive claim about the beliefs in question; at least, not in a way that distinguishes it from other beliefs. Heat-seeking missiles are often found in the epistles.

You are implying that Universalism is clearly wrong because itching ears wait for it, and rejoice when they hear it. But what of the unsaved who want salvation, and rejoice when they hear the Gospel message? Could it not also be said that their ears 'itch' for the message, and that they will gather around people who proclaim this message for them? The verse is quite general. Ears itch for truth as well. And truth is sometimes a beautiful thing.

Sorry but the first few sentences in your OP said that you have a problem with hell. So you're already reading the bible with a biased mind.

But if you itch for the truth then you need to believe Revelation 20:10 as written: "And the devil who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." That's the same place that God tells us where unbelievers go in Rev. 21:8.

But if you don't like what God says, then you're free to change the words; "for ever and ever into "for a short time." Only people who read the bible with bias will be tempted to replace God's words with their own. But the only problem is, God's words will never pass away and unfortunately, yours will. So it's a waste of time to add to, subtract from of change any words in then bible and replace them with your own. Sorry.

 

[Tissue]

Sorry but the first few sentences in your OP said that you have a problem with hell. So you're already reading the bible with a biased mind.

It's a question of consistency. For example, I also believe that the number of stars in the sky far exceeds the number of Abraham's descendants (and, if the end-of-the-world-sayers are to believed, will likely forever exceed them). This is a 'bias'. Thus, when I reach the verse that speaks about Abraham's descendants in relation to the stars, I interpret that as hyperbole.

You have similar biases, though our's may not be the same.

But if you itch for the truth then you need to believe Revelation 20:10 as written: "And the devil who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." That's the same place that God tells us where unbelievers go in Rev. 21:8.

Revelation is a very crazy book. I'm not entirely certain what it is supposed to mean. I'm not convinced it MUST be literal, however.

I've heard some argue (rather compellingly) that it is a political allegory.

But if you don't like what God says, then you're free to change the words; "for ever and ever into "for a short time." Only people who read the bible with bias will be tempted to replace God's words with their own. But the only problem is, God's words will never pass away and unfortunately, yours will. So it's a waste of time to add to, subtract from of change any words in then bible and replace them with your own. Sorry.

Again, you do the same. Read a bit of literary theory. No one reads a text without the lens of interpretation informed by their own experiences.

 

[peace4ever]

It's a question of consistency. For example, I also believe that the number of stars in the sky far exceeds the number of Abraham's descendants (and, if the end-of-the-world-sayers are to believed, will likely forever exceed them). This is a 'bias'. Thus, when I reach the verse that speaks about Abraham's descendants in relation to the stars, I interpret that as hyperbole.

You have similar biases, though our's may not be the same.



Revelation is a very crazy book. I'm not entirely certain what it is supposed to mean. I'm not convinced it MUST be literal, however.

I've heard some argue (rather compellingly) that it is a political allegory.



Again, you do the same. Read a bit of literary theory. No one reads a text without the lens of interpretation informed by their own experiences.

I don't need anything but the bible. "Man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." And the words in the bible we all learned in elementary school. So it's easy enough for a child to understand...provided you have the faith of a child.

 

[Tissue]

I don't need anything but the bible.

That's not true. You need a basic knowledge of a language, at least. And an enhanced vocabulary would help in understand the larger words. And a knowledge of that period in history would help one understand things that may not make much sense otherwise. And a knowledge of philosophy would aid one greatly in drafting their personal theology in response. And a knowledge of the history of interpretation would help one to properly understand Scripture. And a knowledge of the original languages would help one get even closer to the original intent. And a knowledge of historical accounts of the events separate from the canonical writings would help one establish a context for Scripture.

I could go on for a good long while. Fact is, knowledge is helpful in understanding Scripture. You can find salvation within it with very little knowledge, certainly, but you cannot appreciate the breadth of Christian thought with such little knowledge.

But then, of course, if you don't consider such an appreciation important, then you likely don't care. I personally find it quite important for my own personal walk.

 

[peace4ever]

It's a question of consistency. For example, I also believe that the number of stars in the sky far exceeds the number of Abraham's descendants (and, if the end-of-the-world-sayers are to believed, will likely forever exceed them). This is a 'bias'. Thus, when I reach the verse that speaks about Abraham's descendants in relation to the stars, I interpret that as hyperbole.

You have similar biases, though our's may not be the same.



Revelation is a very crazy book. I'm not entirely certain what it is supposed to mean. I'm not convinced it MUST be literal, however.

I've heard some argue (rather compellingly) that it is a political allegory.



Again, you do the same. Read a bit of literary theory. No one reads a text without the lens of interpretation informed by their own experiences.

Sorry, but unlike you, I know that human authors don't know as much as God does. So as Jesus tells us in MT. 23:9, "...for you have one teacher and that is Christ."And His words can be found in the bible so they are all I need. It would be wise for you to believe him..especially if you claim to be a follower of Christ.

 

[preistsplace]

The bible isn't about feeling good. It's about truth. Universalism comes from Satan's first lie; "You will not surely die. Hell doesn't last forever so you can enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. Come, follow me."

Have you read your Bible? You are adding to the word and Grossly misquoting. Here isa the scripture that you are "wanting" to "quote"
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But as 2 Timothy 4:3 explains, "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

I agree with you about men turning from sound doctrine however I say it happened about 500 years after christ with the Introduction of Eternal Torment into the mainstream church which at the time included many Roman Pagans who had not experienced Christ but were forced to change religion by Justinian.

Well the time has come. And universalism is definitely what itching ears want to hear. So you can't read the bible to look for what you want to see, you read the bible wanting God's truth no matter how convicting it may be.

Gods truth is that he loves each and every member of mankind and is more than sufficient to save every one without violating mans will in any way...Do you disagree? God is not love?(1 John 4:8)Or is he not capable?(Isaiah 14:27)

 

[preistsplace]

Sorry but the first few sentences in your OP said that you have a problem with hell. So you're already reading the bible with a biased mind.

And the same argument could be made for anyone who has been "Indoctrinated" by the teachings of modern Christianity

But if you itch for the truth then you need to believe Revelation 20:10 as written: "And the devil who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." That's the same place that God tells us where unbelievers go in Rev. 21:8.

So then you believe that therre is more than one eternity, well that would mean that eternity had a beginning and an end. Hmmmm...

But if you don't like what God says, then you're free to change the words; "for ever and ever into "for a short time." Only people who read the bible with bias will be tempted to replace God's words with their own. But the only problem is, God's words will never pass away and unfortunately, yours will. So it's a waste of time to add to, subtract from of change any words in then bible and replace them with your own. Sorry.

You are right Gods word will never pass away... Amen
P.S. that means that he will never torture the majority of his creation ...no matter how much you might like him too...sorry

 

[Tissue]

Sorry, but unlike you, I know that human authors don't know as much as God does.

I'm not an idiot. I know that limited humans do not know as much as an omniscient God.

 

[peace4ever]

I'm not an idiot. I know that limited humans do not know as much as an omniscient God.

So all you need is the bible if you want the infallible truth and don't want to be an idiot.

 

[preistsplace]

So all you need is the bible if you want the infallible truth and don't want to be an idiot.

I suppose you are not thinking that your staement is entirely ridiculous in the context you are using it in . Only the bible, The word of God does not reuire thought and careful consideration ...then you would be forced to take everything at face value....1 Tim 4:10 would have to be accepted at face value along with Matt 25:46 and you would be left with a contradiction....Or would you take even further elevating the Bible to a sort of magic wand, that required absolutely nothing of the reader?

 

[preistsplace]

So all you need is the bible if you want the infallible truth and don't want to be an idiot.

with what would you interperet it,you seem to be so against man thinking and asking questions .If we could not use our mental capacities(which God gave us) then we could not understand even the smallest portion...

 

[preistsplace]

If we cannot use thge mind how then are we to rightly divide the word of God?

 

[peace4ever]

You are right Gods word will never pass away... Amen
P.S. that means that he will never torture the majority of his creation ...no matter how much you might like him too...sorry

Sorry but God disagrees with you in Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:8, MT. 25:41 and many more verses. So since I have scriptural authority for my beliefs and you don't, you're speaking on your own.

But if you want to pass along Satan's first lie; "You will not surely die", then unfortunately for you, you'll be accountable for all the people you lead straight to hell because contrary to what you believe, Jesus knows better than you do. But that's your fate, not mine.

 

[preistsplace]

of course you will say with the Holy Spirit and I will agree with you but we are also to study and show ourselves approved.....

 

[preistsplace]

Sorry but God disagrees with you in Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:8, MT. 25:41 and many more verses. So since I have scriptural authority for my beliefs and you don't, you're speaking on your own.

But if you want to pass along Satan's first lie; "You will not surely die", then unfortunately for you, you'll be accountable for all the people you lead straight to hell because contrary to what you believe, Jesus knows better than you do. But that's your fate, not mine.

So then you are saying that you believe in ANNIHALATIONISM? NO, I DID NOT THINK SO THEN YOU TOO SAY "YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE" BUT YOU WILL LIVE IN ETERNAL TORMENT AND SUFFERING.

 

[preistsplace]

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The word translated into everlasting here is Aionios... this is the adjective form of the word Aion. Aion was substituted for Olam in the Septuagint...to explain Here is an exerpt from Hope Beyond Hell( which is available free at Tentmaker.org)

Old Testament (Greek Septuagint)​

In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:
The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and was the Bible of the early church. The word aion occurs in it about four hundred times in every variety of combination. The adjective aionios derived from it, is used over one hundred times.…Aion denoted an age, great or small, so the adjective aionios expressed the idea pertaining to or belonging to the aion, whether great or small. But in every case this adjective derives its character and duration from the aion to which it refers. 2
In the Septuagint the Greek word, aion, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Thus, if we want to get a sense of the New Testament meaning of aion, we need to understand the meaning of olam in the Old Testament. Numerous passages referring to olam show clearly it cannot mean "never-ending." Note these few:
Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days later (Jon_1:17; Jon_2:6).
Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns them to their former state (Eze_16:53-55; Jud_1:7).
A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam] until the 10th generation (Deu_23:3).
Hills are everlasting [olam] until made low…earth is burned up (Gen_49:26; Deu_33:15; Isa_40:4; 2Pe_3:10).
Mountains are everlasting [olam] until they are scattered (Hab_3:6).
A slave serves his master forever [olam] until death ends his servitude (Exo_21:6).
The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam] until it vanishes away (Lev_24:8; Heb_8:7-13).
The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Exo_40:15; Num_25:13; Heb_7:14-22).
These "stones" are to be a memorial forever until (Jos_4:7)? Where are they now?
The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his death, of course (2Ki_5:27).
God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed (2Ch_7:16; 1Ki_8:13; 1Ki_9:3).
Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch_2:4; Heb_7:11-28; Heb_8:1-13; Heb_9:1-28; Heb_10:1-18).
Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the new covenant (Gen_17:9-13; 1Co_7:19; Gal_5:6).
Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa_32:13-15).
I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations (Isa_60:15).
Even passages that do not use olam but signify unchanging are not so when God is involved. Nothing can deter Him from achieving His purposes. For example:
Israel's affliction is incurable until the Lord restores health and heals her wounds (Jer_30:12; Jer_30:17).
Samaria's wounds are incurable until the Lord brings them back and restores them (Mic_1:9; Eze_16:53 DOUAY).
Egypt and Elam will rise no more until the Lord brings back their captives (Jer_25:27; Jer_49:39; Eze_29:14).
Moab is destroyed until the Lord brings back the captives of Moab (Jer_48:4; Jer_48:42; Jer_48:47).

 

[preistsplace]

Continued from
Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin
free at HOPEBEYONDHELL.NET
New Testament​

Turning from the Greek Old Testament, consider the New Testament use of aion. Does "eternity" make any sense in the following passages?
What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mat_24:3)?
I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mat_28:20).
The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Luk_16:8).
The sons of this [eternity] marry (Luk_20:34).
Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Luk_20:35).
Since the [eternity] began (Joh_9:32; Act_3:21).
Conformed to this [eternity] (Rom_12:2).
Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now made manifest (Rom_16:25-26).
Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co_1:20)?
Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co_2:6-8).
Wise in this [eternity] (1Co_3:18).
Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come (1Co_10:11).
God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co_4:4).
Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Gal_1:4).
Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come (Eph_1:21).
Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Eph_2:2).
In the [eternities] to come (Eph_2:7).
From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Eph_3:9).
Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col_1:26).
Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti_4:10).
Receive him [for eternity] (Phm_1:15). Forever or until Onesimus, Philemon's former slave, dies?
Powers of the [eternity] to come (Heb_6:5).
At the end of the [eternities] (Heb_9:26).
We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a saying of God (Heb_11:3).

 

[preistsplace]

Passages that say things like "forever and ever" are suggesting that there can be more than one eternity.For there to be more than one the "eternities" would have to have a begginning and an end.....Blessings in Christ

 

[*Starlight*]

That's where new age thinking wrapped up in a nice sounding theology leads us - Jesus and the cross mean nothing - it was all a tragic mistake.

So..... Saving some people makes the death of Jesus important. Saving ALL people makes his death "mean nothing".

I'm not really sure how this kind of logic works...

 

[preistsplace]

So..... Saving some people makes the death of Jesus important. Saving ALL people makes his death "mean nothing".

I'm not really sure how this kind of logic works...

Great post... I think that sometimes people feel that if God does not love them more than others than thee faith is not valuable. Like the faithful son in the story of the prodigal son who is upset with his father for making such a fuss about the lost son finding his way home. The thing is that I am no more deserving of Gods Love than any other creation.My faith cannot be based on my actiopns....My actions must be based on my faith I.E.
Faith that God saves all=act Lovingly to all
Faith that God saves Some=act lovingly to some