Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

I notice that in Hebrews 10:26 that "certain fearful" are merely *looking for* judgement. It says nothing about them getting it (or even having it coming to them).

Sigh .... this feeble attempt to deny the words of this verse is rendered completely wasted by considering the rest of Scripture!!! Do the Scriptures teach the wicked WILL be judged??? Of COURSE they do!!! So, Heb 10:26 discussing their "fearful looking for" is totally justified.

 

[Uber Genius]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

Survey is convoluted as it doesn't allow for "none of the above," or a "traditional view where God loves the world and grants men free will and enough evidence for them to choose while they are alive!"

The question, "Why can't God continue to work on souls postmortem, is setup in a false analogy with time limits of love and patience. We already have data of a time-limit. We need to explain the data, not delete the data we don't like to make a false analogy true.

Why call it "loving" or "patient" to force someone who hates God to be with God for eternity?

 

[mkgal1]

I find it very telling that you can tell my position from me quoting verses. THAT is a very good indication that my position lines up with Scripture.... at least .... with THOSE Scriptures.​

Scripture is left up to interpretation (as you've demonstrated)....and HOW we interpret it says more about us than it does the Scripture itself.

We KNOW God was in heaven when Jesus was born, and is still in heaven today.
The THEORY that somehow God was in heaven, as Jesus said repeatedly, and also was on earth obeying himself, and praying to himself, is nonsense inspired by mixing pagan notions with a few verses that have been taken out of context.

No.....I don't believe God is limited to being "up in heaven". God is spirit....and is everywhere.

Psalm 139--'I can never escape from your Spirit! I can never get away from your presence! If I go up to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there."

It's not apostolic teaching that Jesus isn't divine (neither is the theology of hell that was developed by Augustine centuries later).
​

 

[Rajni]

Why call it "loving" or "patient" to force someone who hates God to be with God for eternity?

Everyone is "forced" to be with God through merely existing. God is everywhere, so regardless of where one chooses to spend eternity (if, indeed, there is such a choice), God will be there.

This is probably why Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that heaven and hell are the same place, and that what makes it either one has to do with a person's disposition towards God.

 

[Uber Genius]

God is everywhere, so regardless of where one chooses to spend eternity (if, indeed, there is such a choice), God will be there.

Hmm, so according to you there is no experiential difference between Heaven and Hell? After all God will be there in the omnipresence type of way right?

I think you have made the mistake of associating that fact that God has a conservative role in space and time, matter and energy, that his presence in Hell is not experientially different than how we will experience him in heaven.

Why not think God's Judgement is what is producing a very different afterlife? Since we have a plethera of OT and NT data to that effect, and 2000 years of denominations around the globe thinking that God's judgement results in both holding people in a place of torment and then a more permanent judgement why add the inference that it is perspectival only? Eastern Orthodox?

 

[Rajni]

I think you have made the mistake of associating that fact that God has a conservative role in space and time, matter and energy, that his presence in Hell is not experientially different than how we will experience him in heaven.

I have to admit I can't make much sense out of this statement.

Why not think God's Judgement is what is producing a very different afterlife? Since we have a plethera of OT and NT data to that effect, and 2000 years of denominations around the globe thinking that God's judgement results in both holding people in a place of torment and then a more permanent judgement why add the inference that it is perspectival only? Eastern Orthodox?

Why not?

 

[mkgal1]

Since we have a plethera of OT and NT data to that effect, and 2000 years of denominations around the globe thinking that God's judgement results in both holding people in a place of torment and then a more permanent judgement

You may want to do some reading on the development of the theology of hell. It wasn't developed until about the 5th century (and not all denominations--or individuals-- bought into it).
Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions: Merriam-Webster: 0081413000443: Amazon.com: Books

Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki


Amazon.com: The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis : A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Supplements to Vigiliae Christianae) (9789004245099): Ilaria Ramelli: Books


https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Triumphant-Universalism-Authority-Scripture-ebook/dp/B0118FXECG/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498940050&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Christ+Triumphant+by+Thomas+Allin+(an+Anglican)


Inventing Hell: Dante, the Bible and Eternal Torment: Jon M. Sweeney: 9781455582242: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Hillsage]

I notice that in Hebrews 10:26 that "certain fearful" are merely *looking for* judgement. It says nothing about them getting it (or even having it coming to them).

As UR believers though, we do believe in God's justice and purposeful dealing with sin. I am of the persuasion that in this verse we are talking about that 'fear' that comes upon any who know they did wrong. But for the discussion of this thread we need to clarify that the 'judgments' that are feared (guilty conscience) are justly deserved. But those punishments are not the eternal fate of the individual who is being purged, or as your last post's BrianZahnd quote said, 'restorative justice' and not 'retributive'.

Having worked in the jail ministry and visiting the 200 mile away prison a few times I have learned this; Those in charge are shifting mentalities to equal those here who believe in eternal torture or eternal annihilation. They simply have no hope in God, other than for themselves and those like themselves. The jail administrator told me himself, when I was wrestling with their lack of attempt to help us rehabilitate, I was quickly informed that there were two philosophies now in 'the country' concerning prisoners. One was 'rehabilitation'(restorative justice), and the other was C.C.C...or Care, Custody, Control. They had no hope for rehab or restoring positive change....'Lock them up and throw away the key, is their 'heart.' Same heart that comes from the same Adversary spirit of the retributive justice for sin, group.

 

[ClementofA]

Also your claim that aionios appears in Exo 15:18 LXX is wrong. It isn't there.

Where which post?

1282 & 1279

 

[ClementofA]

Insisting that a word must have the same meaning in all its usages.

Who claimed that?

....I have two electronic and 2 print editions of Brown,Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—

​

Congratulations.​

 

[ClementofA]

If everyone repents, the shame can't be everlasting.

That's quite different from what you originally said:

"Your theory doesn't result in "shame" for anyone!!"

 

[ClementofA]

Are the Germans ashamed of Hitler?
Duh!
You are trying to force the verse to say something it doesn't.
The two RESULTS of awaking from the dust are; Life ... or "everlasting shame and contempt".

I simply asked a question re Dan.12:2 in your theory of theology:

How do those who do not exist have "everlasting shame"?

As i see it, your answer is confusing.

What do the Germans & Hitler have to do with Dan. 12:2?

 

[ClementofA]

Your own quote proves your error.
The "opposers" are "devoured".

The immediate following context disproves your theory of theology.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[rturner76]

Just jumping in here........

My take on it is that to assume that one who rejects the teachings of Christ and The Church is doomed to an eternity of unimaginable suffering is assuming one of two things.....That God is either unwilling or unable to save his children from the hell fire. The fact that we believe in God's omnipotence rules out that God is unable to save us. The fact that he send Christ or came down as Christ, however you look at it would seem to say that he is willing to provide salvation. So the only other question then I guess is, was Christ's sacrifice not effective enough or was it incomplete in some way so that a large portion of mankind could still not have their sins absolved? Do you have to accept forgiveness in order to be forgiven?

 

[mkgal1]

They had no hope for rehab or restoring positive change....'Lock them up and throw away the key, is their 'heart.' Same heart that comes from the same Adversary spirit of the retributive justice for sin, group.

Exactly.....it is the same heart.

Fr Greg Boyle (who founded Homeboy Industries) calls the attitude of ALL violent gang members, "a lethal absence of hope".

By 1988, having buried an ever growing number of young people killed in gang violence, Father Boyle and parish and community members sought to address the escalating problems and unmet needs of gang-involved youth by developing positive opportunities for them, including establishing an alternative school and day care program, and seeking out legitimate employment. They called this initial effort Jobs for a Future. “Gang violence is about a lethal absence of hope,” Father Boyle has said. “Nobody has ever met a hopeful kid who joined a gang.”~Homeboy Industries - Father Greg |

Hope is important.

 

[Uber Genius]

c

 

[Uber Genius]

You may want to do some reading on the development of the theology of hell. It wasn't developed until about the 5th century (and not all denominations--or individuals-- bought into it).
Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions: Merriam-Webster: 0081413000443: Amazon.com: Books


Inventing Hell: Dante, the Bible and Eternal Torment: Jon M. Sweeney: 9781455582242: Amazon.com: Books

What an incredibly sad state of "Research," we have to tolerate out here.

Here is a plethera of scholarly article, papers, and books tracing the roots back over 500 years before Christ! Thanks for you merriam reference dude.

Now lets here from some scholars:

"Within Second Temple Judaism, Sheol is transformed into a place of differentiation: the souls of the righteous depart to a place of blessing, the wicked to a place of torment. For the New Testament writers, this concept remains, but the soul is now conjoined to the physical body, and in the later post-apostolic period there is accentuated terror for the wicked in vivid descriptions of the eternal fires of hell."

So while no one is denying that the view of hell developed through the middle ages and beyond, it clearly didn't originate in the 5th century C.E. as your "research," suggests.

Second Temple period starts ~516B.C.E. and ends 70 C.E.

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/95914/1/BR2_Finney.pdf

Avery-Peck, Alan J., and Jacob Neusner, eds. Death, Life-after-Death, Resurrection, and the World-to-Come in the Judaisms of Antiquity. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill, 1995.

Collection of essays that discuss the topic of “hell” as part of a broader discussion about death and the afterlife within ancient Judaism. Includes essays on the concept of the afterlife in the Psalms, Wisdom literature, Apocalyptic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospels, and rabbinic literature.

Bernstein, Alan E. The Formation of Hell: Death and Retribution in the Ancient and Early Christian Worlds. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1993.

An overview of hell that focuses on the development of the idea in Greek, Roman, Jewish, and early Christian milieux, concluding with the views of Augustine. Since Bernstein is concerned with a relatively shorter period of time, his treatment of the theme within the biblical texts is more expansive than some of the other overviews. (Ends with 5th Century, not begins )

Nicklas, Tobias, Joseph Verheyden, Erik Eynikel, and Florentino Garcia Martinez. Other Worlds and Their Relation to This World: Early Jewish and Ancient Christian Traditions. Boston and Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill, 2010.

DOI: 10.1163/ej.9789004186262.i-402E-mail Citation »



A collection of essays that includes treatment of the concept of “hell” as part of topical essays on “other worlds” within the Jewish and Christian literature of Antiquity. This volume includes essays on “other worlds” in the Enochic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls, rabbinic literature, Virgil, the New Testament, and the early Christian apocalypses.

Segal, Alan F. Life after Death: A History of the Afterlife in the Religions of the West. New York: Doubleday, 2004.

An overview of the concept of the afterlife as it pertains to Western religious traditions. Includes significant chapters on the concept of afterlife in First Temple Israel, Second Temple Israel, Paul, the Gospels, the Early Church Fathers, and the Rabbis. Segal’s introduction to the topic includes basic historical background for each of the texts he discusses.

Vorgrimler, Herbert. Geschichte der Hölle. Munich: W. Fink, 1993.

A very broad overview of the concept of hell, beginning with Sumerian ideas and continuing chronologically to the present day. Working from the tradition of systematic theology, Vorgrimler is primarily concerned with hell as a theological concept.

While your resource Jon Sweeney, has an undergrad from Wheaton in philosophy and medieval
studies. He is a book writer for the last 20 years, not a scholar not even a Master's thesis. Zilch...
By the way your researcher dropped out of 2 mDiv programs before dropping out of Evangelical Christianity. Point is not ad hominem attack, point is He is not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination. And his so-called scholarship is not even about the origin of Hell but the origin of Dante's version.

Way to go with the internet standard for experts.

 

[mkgal1]

All of these citations are scholarly and most are peer-review or delivered at conferences to peers.

Well.....as it's been repeated throughout this thread, "The 3rd Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian." (I think the credit goes to GordonHooker for that line).

 

[ClementofA]

Thanks for you merriam reference dude.

The gal is obviously not a "dude", as is evident from her style, username & profile page.

 

[Uber Genius]

The gal is obviously not a "dude", as is evident from her style, username & profile page.

didn't look at profile ...nothing obvious M K G A L 1 so just because you can recognize one three-letter combo does not exclude other inferences obviously!
Further there are 120 ways to choose 3 symbols out of 6. Even adding in context doesn't get us close to only 1 inference.

Now did you want to chime in?