Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

duplicate entry ... sorry..

 

[ClementofA]

I have yet to see ANY universalist who is so dishonest they would attempt to claim their theory is supported like "partialism"!

Obviously. Or else you're being sarcastic in your lack of comprehension of what i stated.

I have NEVER found one who would attempt to support their theory by providing a single Biblical sermon presenting their theory, or any explicit statement or explanation OF their theory!!

Obviously universalists have made many sermons & books in support of their view. Whether or not they are "Biblical" is being debated.

 

[Rajni]

The difference being:

A) The "righteous=life/wicked=death" doctrine is ubiquitous in Scripture, is the REPEATED message of Jesus, and is expressed in a multitude of words and phrases, AND is the ONLY destiny EVER preached in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture.

As has already been explained numerous times, those had to do with the then-pending destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, not endless postmortem torment. Post #407 already explained this in detail; posts 28, 29, 83, 136, 255, 295, 390, and 481 also mention this.

B) Universalist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture.

I could say the same about partialist theories. Bible-as-mirror, you see.

I think it's safe to say we're going in circles at this point.

-

 

[Dartman]

B) Universalist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture.

Obviously universalists have made many sermons & books in support of their view. Whether or not they are "Biblical" is being debated.

Your twisting of my statement is dishonest. Please just admit;
Universalist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture

 

[Der Alte]

Not out-of-context at all. And Ecclesiastes is CONSISTENT with the Biblical teaching of Hell..... it is the MAINSTREAM teaching of "Hell" that is heavily influenced by pagan theories.

Your comment is a Classic example of "out-of-context".
You didn't start early enough in the context;
Eccl 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

Classic misrepresentation of another's post. Evidently so eager to score points you didn't really pay attention to what I wrote which was the same author did not know what happened to a man's spirit when he died.. I said nothing about the body.

Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" ​

And you are equally wrong on your standard "hell no" argument. As I show in my link:[post #212]. this thread. The Christian doctrine of hell is based on the Jewish doctrine of hell, not pagan.

1)

Jesus doesn't introduce MANY of his parables as such, but we KNOW they are! (

Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34)
2) The parable of the rich man and Lazarus starts EXACTLY like the previous parable;
Luke 16:1 There was a certain rich man, which had a steward ...
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen ...

The explanation/application of the parable in Luke 16:1-8 is in vss. 9-13. And it does not use any names and certainly not the name of an actual historical person such as the Lazarus account does. Where is the explanation/application of the Lazarus account if it is a parable? And did you happen to notice I quoted several ECF all of whom considered the Lazarus account to be factual.

 

[Dartman]

The difference being:

A) The "righteous=life/wicked=death" doctrine is ubiquitous in Scripture, is the REPEATED message of Jesus, and is expressed in a multitude of words and phrases, AND is the ONLY destiny EVER preached in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture.

As has already been explained numerous times, those had to do with the then-pending destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, not endless postmortem torment.

It doesn't matter how many times you claim this, it still isn't true.

 

[Dartman]

Classic misrepresentation of another's post. Evidently so eager to score points you didn't really pay attention to what I wrote which was the same author did not know what happened to a man's spirit when he died.. I said nothing about the body.

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

And you are equally wrong on your standard "hell no" argument. As I show in my link:[post #212]. this thread. The Christian doctrine of hell is based on the Jewish doctrine of hell, not pagan.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

The explanation/application of the parable in Luke 16:1-8 is in vss. 9-13.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

 

[ClementofA]

Your twisting of my statement is dishonest. Please just admit;
Universalist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture

What twisting? Like I said universalists & ETers can make similar claims. Just substitute Annihilationist in your words above & it says:

"Annihilationist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture"

Amen.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Dartman]

What twisting?

Twisting "sermons IN the Bible", to; sermons that MIGHT be Biblical.

Like I said universalists & ETers can make similar claims. Just substitute Annihilationist in your words above & it says:

"Annihilationist theories are NEVER .... EVER preached, in ANY sermon EVER found in Scripture, AND are NEVER explicitly stated, or explained in Scripture"

This is merely a dishonest claim.
The book of Acts records MANY sermons discussing the annihilation/destruction/death of the wicked, and the requirements for salvation, ALL of which MUST be "explained away" by universalists;

Acts 3:22-23 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The NECESSITY of repentance;
Acts 8:21-22 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 13:46-47 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The NECESSITY of belief;

Acts 16:29-32 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

This could go on, but the point is made .... to any that are honest.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Unless there is another creator out there, anything that exists has its origin in God. He is quoted point blank as saying He creates evil. I've seen more than once the attempts to explain it away, yet there it is.

If Adam was perfect, he wouldn't have failed.

And if we all can be guilty of something done by one person eons ago, we can all be justified by something done by one person eons ago, especially if that latter person is basically God Himself. (Matthew 19:25-26) I don't see Adam's influence as being more powerful than God's; that would definitely feel heretical to me, and I'm considered a heretic already.

I've heard this explanation before, and it doesn't add up. If God is truly so offended by sin that He would have someone tormented or annihilated for it, He was well within His rights to simply refrain from creating that person to begin with, because He would have seen where they'd end up anyway. "Better that they had never been born" and all that.

No, what I think this explanation does is put sin on a pedestal. It suggests that our sin is so wonderfully big and powerful that even God Himself can't do any more to remedy it than toss the containers thereof into the incinerator for eternity.

Meanwhile, at the same time, it's said that Jesus took away the sin of the world through his death on the cross, and that he took on the punishment for it on the cross. Partialism presents things as though this never even happened, amounting to more religious doublethink / doublespeak.

Either hell is not a real concern (meaning the ECT version of it) or Jesus didn't really do what he's been said to have done with regards to dealing once and for all with sin, in which case, yeah, hell would be a real concern.

If it can happen to Paul, it can happen to anyone.
-

If you truly believe that God is the source of evil, I mourn for you my friend, for you have traded truth for a lie. The teaching that God is the origin of evil is most certainly not taught by our Lord Jesus Christ, for he said only God is good and we are evil; nor by the apostles, nor by the early church, nor by the church today. Where did you get this revelation? It can't be from Scripture, for it makes no such claim and neither does the church. The idea of God as creator of evil can only be gnostic and anti-Christian. It has absolutely no Biblical or historical support.

Just as I pointed out in an earlier post, which you denied, you do appear to hold to the philosophical problem of evil and openly reject what Scripture says, if you indeed believe that God is the source of evil, which He is most certainly not!

Again, you are in error in your view of Isaiah 45:7, for not only do you disregard the use of the word, but more importantly you disregard the context. Even the next verse, Isaiah 45:8, disproves your claim, for it says: "Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it."
This is simply and clearly talking about God's righteous punishment of evil. Where exactly in this chapter does it say that God imputes evil on man, which causes man to sin? Nowhere. This chapter is specifically about Cyrus acting as God's instrument of wrath on evil, and in its wider sense that God punish all evil, because God is righteous and good. It even goes on to say that only God saves, which too testifies to that God is not the source of evil; He is not the problem, but the solution. Man, through sin and rebellion is the problem and deserves punishment; but thanks be to the grace of God, that Jesus Christ has overcome sin and death for all who believe.

In a word, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is the source of evil, but quite on the contrary, Scripture says that God is supremely good and holy. I can quote much Scripture on this point, but it's unnecessary on account of the whole Bible testifying to God's goodness and man's wickedness - especially in light of Christ's teachings. Can you find any evidence in Scripture at all that God imputes evil on people that causes them to sin? No, it just doesn't exist - but please feel free to share any Scripture you think illustrates this claim.

Here it may be worth noting that Judaism claim that God created evil in the sense that he tempts and tests people (by that they don't believe in Satan). However, while God does test people (but not by creating evil), this idea is false and was refuted by Christ and the apostles, for James says: "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." Furthermore, John says: "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." And in Christ's own words: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." - this is not from God, and if we say it comes from God, we are blaspheming.

Regarding sin, you appear to have an almost Stoic understanding of evil, in that it's not ultimately our fault, which is entirely in opposition to Scripture, and in fact was a notion that was combated by the Gospel. The Gospel, in its wide sense calls all to repentance and belief in God through Jesus Christ, and in its narrow sense proclaims the good news of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in Christ as Lord.

Adam - again, here you are fundamentally in error, for you do not recall God's gracious gift of free will. Adam, like us, abused his free will for evil, and so do we through our continued sin and rebellion.

Paul - Did Paul not believe in Jesus Christ? Was it not Paul's belief that was credited to him as righteousness before God? Paul does not prove your point, but only testifies against it, for it testifies to the Biblical claim that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
Once again, then, where in Scripture does it say that whoever, through sin, rebellion and unbelief rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life? Paul repented from his evil and believes in Christ.

Again, I'll add this question: If you hold that all will have salvation, do you believe that even the fallen angels will be saved? In which case, how do you get around 2 Peter 2?

And yet again: Do you deny that it is good and righteous for God to punish evil and sin?

 

[ClementofA]

This is merely a dishonest claim.
The book of Acts records MANY sermons discussing the annihilation/destruction/death of the wicked, and the requirements for salvation, ALL of which MUST be "explained away" by universalists;

Acts 3:22-23 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The NECESSITY of repentance;
Acts 8:21-22 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 13:46-47 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The NECESSITY of belief;

Acts 16:29-32 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

This could go on, but the point is made .... to any that are honest.

Of course anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint is "dishonest" & just lying to themselves. It's a wonder they still believe what they believe just as strongly as you do.

The Acts chapters 4, 8, 10 & 16 passages you quoted tell us that salvation is by repentance & through Christ & believing in Him, which is exactly what Christian universalism says all people will eventually do. It is interesting, though, that Acts 4 says they "must" be saved, instead of "may" or "might" be saved:

Acts 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved.

1163 deí – properly, what must happen, i.e. what is absolutely necessary ("it behooves that . . . "). Strong's Greek: 1163. δεῖ3rd (dei) -- it is necessary

As for Acts 3:23, the phrase about being "destroyed" is said to be "a very common one, from Genesis 17:14, for the sentence of death, cf. also Exodus 12:15; Exodus 12:19, Leviticus 17:4; Leviticus 17:9, Numbers 15:30." Bible Commentaries

Of course death is not the end in light of the resurrection of the dead. Although if one remains dead in Hades before their resurrection and through the millennial age, they will suffer the loss of all that entails:

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4b-6)

As to their ultimate salvation, 2 verses before, in verse 21 of Acts 3, it states:

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Acts 13 speaks of those who judge themselves unworthy of "eternal life", literally translated "eonian life", from the Greek word aionion (αἰώνιος), which often refers to a limited duration of time in ancient Greek, and includes life in Christ's Kingdom during the millennial eon, which unrepentant unbelievers will not partake of:

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;"
G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"and are judging yourselves not worthy of EONIAN life, lo! we are turning to the nations." (Acts 13:46b, CLNT)
"and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life AGE DURING, lo, we do turn to the nations;" (Acts 13:46b, YLT)
"and, unworthy, are judging yourselves of the AGE-ABIDING life, lo! we turn unto the nations;" (Acts 13:46b, Rotherham)
"and not worthy judge yourselves of the AGE-LASTING life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46b, Diaglott)
"But since you spurn it and judge yourselves to be unworthy of the Life of the AGES--well, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46b, Weymouth)
Study Bible - Online Greek Hebrew KJV Parallel Interlinear Tools

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4b-6)

2 Corinthians 5:19: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself."
Colossians 1:19-20: Through Christ "God was pleased ... to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Universalism is Not in the Bible

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

 

[Mike Fleming]

They did not use Universalism within your current context of the usage of the term. Your 100% misquoting the Church fathers to give life to a heresy that all will be saved.

When Athiests die, are they saved?
When snake worshippers die, are they saved?
When Satanists die, are they saved?

Not until they first go through the scourging of God for their sins. They will be plunged into the fire of His love and it will burn and torment them for all the sins they have committed in their lives. Their willfullness, their rebellion, their love of sin, will meet the love of God, and it will be like AC current hitting a DC drive motor!

Have you ever seen what happens when AC juice hits a DC motor. It is horrible for the motor because the motor cannot take it. Likewise, a soul in a state of sinfulness and selfishness, meeting the love of God, will be tormented.

After the scourging has done its work and the justice of God has been proportionally meted out to the rebellious soul, Patristic Universalism sees that this is the point in the souls' existence where, having seen its wickedness and been punished (scourged) for it, the soul has the opportunity to turn to God in repentance.

This is where you differ from the Patristic Universalists. You don't believe there is a second chance for repentance, and quite frankly, this is where I have the most problem also. If you have read any of my posts, you should know that I am not totally onboard with this as of now. And the reason is that there are some men (and women) of whom it is hard to imagine that they would ever repent, even after a prolonged period of the most severe scourging. I have a hard time imagining an Idi Amin, a Josef Stalin, a Pol Pot, a Margaret Sanger, and many other deeply hardened souls coming to Christ, even after they have been beaten severely for their sins and even with Christ now visible to them and pleading with them to come to Him

That is the point where I have a real problem. I wonder if they will simply become harder and harder in their sin, and one thing that points to this from Scripture is that the devil Himself sees the Lord in all His loving beauty and rejects Christ and His love for his own ego. How can he do that, seeing Christ in all His beauty? I do not understand.

If you answered yes to any of the above, your not even close to what the Church fathers taught, not even close. In fact if this lifetime is not the means test for a person's salvation, then Christ died for nothing. God came as Jesus of Nazareth and he died on the cross, then he said come and follow me.

But is this really a fair test? We have a nature which is broken and inclined to sin, a devil who is allowed to trick, test, tempt, and deceive us, and eyes that no longer see God clearly as Adam did? How is this anything but a race that is rigged against us from the very beginning? It is like strapping 20 pound weights to the ankles of an Olympic runner and then expecting him to win the gold medal. Ain't gonna happen unless someone picks him up and carries him in a car across the line.

Let me ask you this - could it be that rather than being a test between salvation and utter torment forever, could it be a test to assign different levels of glory and responsibility in the Kingdom in the coming age? A Josef Stalin might be redeemed (again, assuming that he is capable of repenting) to be a very dim soul of dim glory and no authority in the Kingdom, whereas an Antony of the Desert will shine like the brightest noon sun, and have great authority.

I'm not saying this is true, it is something that I wonder could be perhaps another explanation of this journey we are on in this world.

Jesus said not every one who says lord lord will inherit eternal life, except those who do the fathers will. Doing the fathers will is solely in this lifetime, and this lifetime is temporal testing platform that God uses to either accept or to reject people. Once we pass away, there is no more carrying our crosses and following Jesus, let alone doing the Father's will. The work of faith is in this lifetime, after comes judgement before the judgement seat of Christ, that at this time it is Justice and not Grace that you are facing.

I agree with your closing statement. I believe there are different levels of glory and responsibility in the kingdom of heaven for faithfulness. And I also believe in the eternal condemnation of those who do not know Christ or do the will of the Father while on earth, as Jesus stated in Matt. 7:21, “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter." I just do not see any scripture that suggests that rebellious souls will get another chance to repent after death. If so, why did jesus leave this out while explaining these things in Matt. 7? Why did he not say something suggesting of those sent to out darkness and torment that they will be there "until they repent?" I see many problems with this, because I know many who believe this and who write off sin as something they will deal with when they die. I will not mention their church, but I have heard people say, "In my church I can live however I want." How can this be, and how could a Holy god ever allow someone with this attitude to enter His holy kingdom? Proverbs 16:2 "People may be pure in their own eyes,but the Lord examines their motives."

 

[Dartman]

Of course anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint is "dishonest" & just lying to themselves. It's a wonder they still believe what they believe just as strongly as you do.

The Acts chapters 4, 8, 10 & 16 passages you quoted tell us that salvation is by repentance & through Christ & believing in Him, which is exactly what Christian universalism says all people will eventually do. It is interesting, though, that Acts 4 says they "must" be saved, instead of "may" or "might" be saved:

Acts 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved.

1163 deí – properly, what must happen, i.e. what is absolutely necessary ("it behooves that . . . "). Strong's Greek: 1163. δεῖ3rd (dei) -- it is necessary

Exactly, in order to obtain Eternal Life, one MUST be saved.
Rom 6:1-5 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

As for Acts 3:23, the phrase about being "destroyed" is said to be "a very common one, from Genesis 17:14, for the sentence of death, cf. also Exodus 12:15; Exodus 12:19, Leviticus 17:4; Leviticus 17:9, Numbers 15:30." Bible Commentaries

And that is accurate, since Dead=NOT LIVE.
Isa 38:1 ... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Of course death is not end in light of the resurrection of the dead.

This is ONLY true of death in this life, it is NOT true of 2nd death.
Rev 20:5-6 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As to their ultimate salvation, 2 verses before, in verse 21 of Acts 3, it states:

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

The restoration spoken by God's holy prophets is; the restoration of edenic conditions on earth, and that earth being the eternal home of the righteous ONLY .... made possible by destroying the wicked, and all their works, by fire. There are more than 75 verses describing this "restoration" in the Scriptures.
Your theory denies ALL of those words ".. spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Acts 13 speaks of those who judge themselves unworthy of "eternal life", literally translated "eonian life", from the Greek word aionion (αἰώνιος), which often refers to a limited duration of time in ancient Greek, and includes life in Christ's Kingdom during the millennial eon, which unrepentant unbelievers will not partake of:

eonian life is exactly what Jesus received at his resurrection, and is the same reward given to those in the first resurrection, AND given to those judged worthy after the judgement. But those judged NOT worthy are given eonian punishment!!
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That punishment will last forever, just like eternal life.
It does NOT say the PUNISHING lasts forever, but the PUNISHMENT .... they will be dead forever.

 

[Dartman]

sigh ... another duplicate....

 

[Hillsage]

I am not sure what you mean by "those in covenant with him". So, could you please clarify?

But, I THINK you MIGHT mean, those who Jesus would judge as righteous .... which would indicate you are asking for verses that use "sleep" regarding a wicked dead person. That's EASY!

1 Kings 14:20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with this fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:1-6 Then the word of the Lord came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying,
2 Forasmuch as I exalted thee out of the dust, and made thee prince over my people Israel; and thou hast walked in the way of Jeroboam, and hast made my people Israel to sin, to provoke me to anger with their sins; ... 6 So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:

1 Kings 16:25,28 But Omri wrought evil in the eyes of the Lord, and did worse than all that were before him... 28 So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:

In case you didn't notice, these are ALL wicked kings. And, this list could go on, and on ....

Jehovah told Adam;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This EXACT concept is expressed in these passages, calling death "sleep";

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You were 'thinking correctly as to what I meant'. Well done cowboy, and I mean that. But, and there's always a but...I really was just thinking more about proof in the NT scriptures or from Jesus.

But in checking your sleep/death verses in the OT, even though I do find that word to be pretty interesting and very broad in it's use in the OT at 191 times, and with over 28 definitions, but death certainly is one of them.

[/quote]The parable of the rich man (the 2 tribes called "Jews"), their 5 brethren (the lost 10 tribes) and Lazarus (Gentiles) is an analogy, making the same point as

Matt 21:42-46 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

It's not about literal death at all. Jesus concludes the parable of the rich man and Lazarus with this;

Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[/QUOTE]

And so you are a bit 'unorthodox' yourself then? I don't think I've ever heard anyone here speak of the Lazarus/rich man story/parable as anything but a proof of hell after death. So, I guess I'm going to consider myself tied up a bit, but the only 'hanging' here seems to be a hung jury. I don't know that we've settled much.

 

[Dartman]

Yikes!! A 3rd repeat... that server lag was wicked.

 

[Der Alte]

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering. I don't mean unsupported information posted in various websites.
.....But the information I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud reflects the beliefs of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus. Since what Jesus taught about eternal punishment gehenna, hades etc mirrored what the Jews of His day taught and He did not criticize or correct their views I think we can dispense with the "hellenized Jews" nonsense.
As the evidence I posted shows the Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Punishing a child will not rescue them from the grave.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Irrelevant! Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted? In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. ​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. ​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ​

 

[Der Alte]

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering. I don't mean unsupported information posted in various websites.
.....But the information I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud reflects the beliefs of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus. Since what Jesus taught about eternal punishment gehenna, hades etc mirrored what the Jews of His day taught and He did not criticize or correct their views I think we can dispense with the "hellenized Jews" nonsense.
As the evidence I posted shows the Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Punishing a child will not rescue them from the grave.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Irrelevant! Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted? In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. ​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. ​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ​

 

[Der Alte]

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering. I don't mean unsupported information posted in various websites.
.....But the information I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud reflects the beliefs of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus. Since what Jesus taught about eternal punishment gehenna, hades etc mirrored what the Jews of His day taught and He did not criticize or correct their views I think we can dispense with the "hellenized Jews" nonsense.
As the evidence I posted shows the Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Punishing a child will not rescue them from the grave.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Irrelevant! Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted? In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. ​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. ​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ​

 

[Der Alte]

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering. I don't mean unsupported information posted in various websites.
.....But the information I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud reflects the beliefs of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus. Since what Jesus taught about eternal punishment gehenna, hades etc mirrored what the Jews of His day taught and He did not criticize or correct their views I think we can dispense with the "hellenized Jews" nonsense.
As the evidence I posted shows the Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Punishing a child will not rescue them from the grave.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Irrelevant! Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted? In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. ​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. ​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ​

 

[Dartman]

Weird! The update to this site is VERY slow, so I ended up posting duplicate posts ... and NOW I can't seem to edit them.
Sorry for the "spam"! 8-(

 

[Dartman]

Weird! The update to this site is VERY slow, so I ended up posting duplicate posts ... and NOW I can't seem to edit them.
Sorry for the "spam"! 8-(

 

[Rajni]

No worries; the site has been a bit glitchy this morning.

 

[Hillsage]

I am not sure what you mean by "those in covenant with him". So, could you please clarify?

But, I THINK you MIGHT mean, those who Jesus would judge as righteous .... which would indicate you are asking for verses that use "sleep" regarding a wicked dead person. That's EASY!

1 Kings 14:20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with this fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:1-6 Then the word of the Lord came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying,
2 Forasmuch as I exalted thee out of the dust, and made thee prince over my people Israel; and thou hast walked in the way of Jeroboam, and hast made my people Israel to sin, to provoke me to anger with their sins; ... 6 So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:

1 Kings 16:25,28 But Omri wrought evil in the eyes of the Lord, and did worse than all that were before him... 28 So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:

In case you didn't notice, these are ALL wicked kings. And, this list could go on, and on ....

Jehovah told Adam;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This EXACT concept is expressed in these passages, calling death "sleep";

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You were 'thinking correctly as to what I meant'. Well done cowboy, and I mean that. But, and there's always a but...I really was just thinking more about proof from Jesus or in the NT scriptures.

But in checking your sleep/death verses in the OT, even though I do find that word to be pretty interesting and very broad in it's use in the OT at 191 times, and with over 28 definitions, but death certainly is one of them.

The parable of the rich man (the 2 tribes called "Jews"), their 5 brethren (the lost 10 tribes) and Lazarus (Gentiles) is an analogy, making the same point as

Matt 21:42-46 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

It's not about literal death at all. Jesus concludes the parable of the rich man and Lazarus with this;

Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So, you are a bit 'unorthodox' yourself then? I don't think I've ever heard anyone here speak of the Lazarus/rich man story/parable as anything but a proof of hell after death. If that's what I hear you saying, that is. So, I guess I'm going to consider myself tied up a bit on your rebuttal. But the only 'hanging' here seems to be a hung jury. I don't know that we've settled much.

 

[Der Alte]

You ignored the central point of the text. The text NEVER states "the body .." does something. It is "man".... the person!!!! It is YOU that goes to dust, according to Jehovah;
Gen 3:19 Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
It is YOU that "sleeps in the dust" in death.
It is YOU that waits in the grave in death.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think I was discussing Ecclesiastes 3 and 9 and what the author of that book said not Genesis.

Hellenized Jews are no proof of your theory.... they are proof of pagan influence. Scripture is proof of the truth; hell is merely the grave.

If you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews were hellenized and their views were wrong then your objection might be worth considering. I don't mean unsupported information posted in various websites.
.....But the information I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud reflects the beliefs of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus. Since what Jesus taught about eternal punishment gehenna, hades etc mirrored what the Jews of His day taught and He did not criticize or correct their views I think we can dispense with the "hellenized Jews" nonsense.
As the evidence I posted shows the Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Punishing a child will not rescue them from the grave.

First, deal with the identical language at the beginning of each parable in chapter 16, coupled with the declarations made in Matt 13:34 and Mark 4:34

Irrelevant! Does anything in those texts refute anything I posted? In Luke 16 Jesus' primary audience were His disciples not the multitudes.

Luke 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions.​

Then you are going to point out something about the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.​

Jesus was talking to His disciples but the Pharisees happened to overhear it. After the Lazarus/rich man account Jesus was still talking to His disciples.

Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!​

 

[Der Alte]

Duplicate post due to connection problems.

 

[ClementofA]

Yes. Jesus has turned the kingdom over to his Father, and his Father is sharing His throne with Jesus, reigning over the immortal righteous.
No. Not any more.
The immortal, righteous subjects are no longer ruling ... but they WERE kings of the earth;
Rev 5:9-10 ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There is still reigning after people experience the second death:

"Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

Death is not abolished while there is still reigning:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore death is not abolished with people still dead in the lake of fire. And this is yet to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Dartman]

There is still reigning after people experience the second death:

"Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

Yes, Jehovah/YHVH God is sharing His throne with Jesus.

Death is not abolished while there is still reigning:

Incorrect. Death is NOT a required ingredient for reigning.