Silmarien,
Haha, yes, I have a "take no prisoners" existentialist approach to life, the universe, and everything. It made me a cultured despiser of religion, but ultimately left me wide open to a flank attack by those Russian Orthodox intellectuals.
I have to chuckle because you have a way with words, Silmarien. So, was it Dostoyevsky that flanked you, or Tolstoy?
It's... difficult, though. I know all the tricks in the skeptic's handbook, so it's very much a "three steps forward, two steps back" sort of journey, stumbling and tripping over dogma as I go. (Amusingly, I just recently realized that Trinitarianism actually makes more sense philosophically than any other religion out there, which will hopefully stabilize me a bit.)
I understand. We each have to process it as we can. I wouldn't want to cause anyone to rush into something that none of us was ever meant to have an absolute handle on anyway. I don't think God intended Christian doctrine to be quite like playing with a can of play-do, where we can fully handle it any way we want and then throw it back into the can and slap the lid on when we're done. I think (existentially speaking), God has meant for His presence to remain a mystery even though we will commonly find we can identify Him among ourselves.
What aesthetics are involved for you?
… it's not something that is easy to describe. But when I was 17 and dealing with a lot of existential type angst due to family problems and a nagging fear of death, I cracked the New Testament open for the first time, reading the Gospels and realizing that Jesus was the most beautiful ideal person I'd ever encountered. You have to understand, this mesmerizing with Jesus came after those other things I had in my life—tons of comic book characters, other fantasy/sci-fi materials, and an interest in graphic-arts that provided a typical, not too educated boy endless hours of fascination. Jesus stood out because His love for people shined off the page for me, and His death and connection to God in the uber-life was something I couldn't ignore. He also seemed to be the answer to my existential angst. So...that was and has been the main aesthetic draw involved in my perception of the Christian faith.
I picked up the Bible seriously for the first time six months ago, so I'm really not at the point where I can have a biblically based debate on this particular topic.
Well, despite what you may have seen when I occasionally spar with others here, I have no intention of trying to draw you into some debate with the purpose of “helping augment” your beliefs.
I respect that each of us is on our own journey of understanding. But, when people come into CF with some kind of bravado and speak as if they've actually done some deep academic theological or philosophical work, and I know they really haven't, and I see they want to push something like 'universalism' onto everyone, then........I find in myself something that wells up and wants to take them to task for it. ...Otherwise, I like to give people plenty of existential space to explore their own spiritual journeys. I'm not their guide, teacher, or executioner.
I have seen it argued that most of the passages about judgment were actually referring more specifically to the conflict with Rome, and I know just enough about the way the Jewish Prophets operated to wonder whether these passages are to be taken completely at face value or if they were specifically directed at that particular culture. Would Jesus address a modern audience somewhat differently? Almost certainly.
That's an interesting proposition. In what way do you think the judgment passages represented conflict with Rome? (This is a genuine question. I'm not trying to test you or anything.)
That said, there are ideas I find very difficult when removed from the realm of theology and applied to reality. Exclusivism, for one. I think everyone is guilty of idolatry to one degree or another--it's impossible not to put your own spin on Scripture.
I do to. We all have our own little spin. The interesting thing, though, is that our particular spins can grow and change, nevertheless. And it's always good to know that we all have our own spins so we can know where our limits are regarding our claims to “knowledge” about God. Unfortunately, there are those who think they've arrived at the fount of supreme knowledge.
If everyone has their own personal interpretation of Jesus, whose faith is saving and whose is not?
That isn't something I think we were meant to be able to perfectly measure among ourselves. Jesus seemed to be more interested in keeping the exact data for Himself on that, but He did give us various metaphors as heuristic devices....”you will know them by their fruits.” Ay?
How much doubt shoves you back into the nonbeliever category?
(lol!) Hard to say, really. How much doubt does it take to shrink something down to the size of a mustard seed? I mean, that fairly small, don't you think?
I don't think the Gospel is very good news at all if you need to be a saint to qualify, and correct belief is an impossible standard when everyone is wrong. I'm not convinced that Calvinists and Eastern Orthodox are even worshipping the same God, which begs a very serious question even without bringing in people who toss out half the dogma entirely and other religions.
Personally, I think they are worshiping the same God (maybe I'm wrong, but I am …. very ecumenical). I think they are just all praising God, but doing it through “a glass, darkly.” The problem is that they just don't like to admit they are seeing things through a mediated focal point. To admit this would be to give up the authority they sometimes like to claim for themselves.
Now, I don't view hell as punitive. This is due to personal experience--I've spent a lot of time in pretty serious intellectual rebellion, and it's effectively been spiritual suicide.
I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like a painful time, Silmarien.
I've seen the Orthodox talk about being able to get a taste while still alive of what hell actually is, and I would definitely agree.
Well, ...when one lives in Russia or Eastern European countries, I can see why. (I say this as one who knows some Russian people and some of its history.)
I think it's a matter of self-destruction, not punishment, so I'd say that the warnings in the Gospels are very relevant, but that our approach to the concept of judgment is probably off-base.
You might be surprised that I have a similar interpretive framework by which I interpret all those nasty bits about “fire” and “worms” and things.
This really colors the way I look at Scripture, though, since it's hard to put much weight in Reformed theology when your own "conviction of sin" plays out in a way that's exclusively consistent with the way the East approaches the subject.
Personally, I take more of a 2,000 year conglomerate view of Christian theology, one that is open to philosophical exploration of all of the major voices represented in the various Christian traditions. I'm just a Christian.
As far as Universalism goes... if I had to throw in with anyone, it'd probably be C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright's pseudo-Annihilationistic approach (i.e., becoming less human until there's eventually not much of anything left), but I'm interested in what the best of the Universalists have to say too..
I like C.S. Lewis too. His book, “Screwtape Letters” was the first Christian book I ever read after the New Testament, and it colored much of the way I tend to look at things. I'm familiar with N.T. Wright, although I only have one of his books, and I have to admit I haven't read it all the way through yet.
I'm also open to hearing what Universalists say, but at the same time, I'm just not much on dogmatic presentations that don't leave the conclusion up for consideration. Moreover, it's connotations seem to me to cheapen the whole point of my own psychological suffering in the attempt to repent of all that this world has “to offer," such as it is. (Whoopee!!!
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I'm skeptical of the strong claim that everyone will eventually be reconciliated, but I think it takes drawing some arbitrary lines to say that there are specific points at which someone becomes too far gone.
I think I can go with some of that notion … I don't think there would have been as strong of an aesthetic draw to Jesus for me if His grace and mercy were only meted out to those who could meet severe moral requirements.
Thanks for the interesting, philosophical, and personal exchange, Silmarien. Love that umbrella ...
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
