Universalism...why not?

[Light of the East]

This statement is true, but would only apply to you ..... IF ... you actually had Scriptures that clearly state your theories.... you don't.
In stead, there are more than 100 that discuss the punishment of the wicked in graphic, and specific terms.

They contradict Scripture too, and are the very heretics Paul warned about in Acts 20 and 2 Thess 2, like I've told you before.

If Patristic Universalism was preached in the first 500 years of the Christian faith, tell me why there is no council called to oppose it and bring forth the "truth?" With every other heretical view, beginning with the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) heresy didn't last a long time until the Church Fathers called a council to discuss it and get things straight, yet this went on unabated and unchallenged as the main eschatological teaching of the Church. Explain, please.

How about you explain this passage;

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

End of the Old Covenant. Jerusalem, AD 70. Get Josephius and read the accounts of the horrors of the Jewish War between AD 67 - 70 and the end of the city. Matches Malachi. Stop trying to put first century prophecies into the 21st century!

 

[Light of the East]

An excellent study for those researching universalist theories is, study how "if" is used in the Bible, and what "if" means in context.

Your lecturing us on how to study the Bible, when you don't even believe "This IS my Body...." is ludicrous.

 

[Dartman]

This statement is true, but would only apply to you ..... IF ... you actually had Scriptures that clearly state your theories.... you don't.
In stead, there are more than 100 that discuss the punishment of the wicked in graphic, and specific terms.

They contradict Scripture too, and are the very heretics Paul warned about in Acts 20 and 2 Thess 2, like I've told you before.

If Patristic Universalism was preached in the first 500 years of the Christian faith, tell me why there is no council called to oppose it and bring forth the "truth?" With every other heretical view, beginning with the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) heresy didn't last a long time until the Church Fathers called a council to discuss it and get things straight, yet this went on unabated and unchallenged as the main eschatological teaching of the Church. Explain, please.

I keep telling you, those you call "Church Fathers" are merely the most outspoken heretics of the apostate church.

How about you explain this passage;

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

End of the Old Covenant. Jerusalem, AD 70. Get Josephius and read the accounts of the horrors of the Jewish War between AD 67 - 70 and the end of the city. Matches Malachi. Stop trying to put first century prophecies into the 21st century!

Have it, have read it, doesn't match in the least. There is NO way the Jewish survivors of 70AD experienced ANYTHING like verse 2, yet.

 

[Dartman]

Your lecturing us on how to study the Bible, when you don't even believe "This IS my Body...." is ludicrous.

"This IS my Body"???? What are you talking about?

 

[Light of the East]

When a person, who is not saved, dies, they do not go to the same place that a person who is saved goes...
A saved person goes to be with Christ. An unsaved person does not, but waits until the white throne judgement at the end of the millennium. There will be a quick sorting of "was this person a soul that has salvation?" That will be the quick judgement.

Wrong. There is no such place where God is not. All souls go to be with Christ/God. Scripture states in the Psalms "If I make my bed in Sheol, thou are there." The idea that there are places and compartments in eternity in which God is somehow not there is ludicrous.

At the white throne judgement, the unbeliever will be held accountable and judged on their actions and works on this earth.

At death, a saved person is given salvation based on their faith in Christ's blood. Their judgement will then be to determine their honor, crowns and rewards while the exist in heaven.

Two quite different situations. One, the sinner given sentence for their actions, as they were not saved, it will only determine or confirm their second death.

The other, the saved, gets salvation, not by works, but, once saved is judged by the works they did in Christ's name, only to determine their rewards.

Why does this not apply to the wicked as well in that they are judged as to how much scourging they will receive proportional to their deeds? Will a child who stole a toy from a store and then died have the same level of pain as Joseph Stalin and that forever? Will pagans who never heard of Christ be sent to your "eternal hell" when they never even got a chance to "make a decision for Jesus?"

The sinner is never questioned on a ability for salvation, at this point, as it is already a done deal.

Based on what Scripture? This is conjecture at best.

The believer, also, is not questioned on their right to salvation, as it is also already determined and a done deal.

No, not a "done deal." Those who were believers but who did not advance in holiness (theosis) in this life will find that there is further purging of their souls to make them pure. To avoid the pain of this purging, it is wise of us to zealously pursue as much holiness as our state in life will allow for. Wise were those men who went out into the desert to eschew the world, practice ascesis, and turn their whole being towards Christ/God.

Not at all. He created us for fellowship.

Well, sort of, but actually He created us to be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4) and to enter fully into the love of the Blessed Trinity.

Sin keeps us from that possibility. Salvation is a release from sin so that His original purpose for us can be realized. However, salvation is a free gift but must be accepted by the recipient. Not forced on by the giver.

Some will respond to the call here, some will not. But if God wills the salvation of all men, then that must leave the possibility open for a time when a soul will stand before God guilty, be made aware of its sin, and submit to the scourging of God's love to cleanse it and bring it to repentance.

It's not a test. It's a mandatory action as someone must pay for the sins of the soul of each individual....

Listen to what you said. Did the offering of obedience of Christ on the Cross pay for the sins of every soul who would ever live? If so (Romans 5:18) then Patrisitic Universalism is a distinct possibility.

 

[Light of the East]

"This IS my Body"???? What are you talking about?

This is my Body, as in the Eucharist. You don't believe what Jesus said.

 

[Light of the East]

I keep telling you, those you call "Church Fathers" are merely the most outspoken heretics of the apostate church.
Have it, have read it, doesn't match in the least. There is NO way the Jewish survivors of 70AD experienced ANYTHING like verse 2, yet.

Well, this is quite funny because you follow doctrines which were codified by those Church Fathers whom you are calling heretics.

If you believe in the Trinity -- Church Fathers

If you believe in Jesus as two separate natures in one Person -- Church Fathers.

If you reject Sabellianism, Monophysitism, Monothellitism -- Church Fathers

The Canon of Scripture -- Given to you by these same "heretics."

The only reason that you call them heretics is because you know they disagree with and teach against whatever form of Protestantism to which you cling.

 

[JacksBratt]

In other words, the meaning would be that Joseph Stalin's knee and each ISIS terrorist's knee will bow alongside St. Francis of Assisi. I'm uneasy with that interpretation, but who knows? And of course, if everyone does acclaim God the Father and/or Christ--because they can hardly do otherwise when confronted with perfection and their eyes are opened--that doesn't mean that they'll escape all the consequences of a life lived badly.

That's what I believe. All sinners, the worst and the not so bad..... all will bow, all will kneel, all will acknowledge the Supreme awesomeness of Christ our savior, His rightful place as part of the triune Godhead and the total omniscience of the God head.

Even if they do it in shame, unwillingness of heart, or whatever...... they will not be able to argue against the facts.

 

[Mike Fleming]

I believe if you are presented with the facts in your lifetime and CHOOSE to reject Christ and go your own way, you have already been given a chance of eternal life but threw it away.

However, what of those who die without ever hearing the gospel? I believe they will be given a chance at some point after death to know and accept Christ.

This is a hard topic, because we are dealing with the issue that God is love, but at the sametime the reality of eternal condemnation after death. Romans 1:20 says, "20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." Basically, God will and does reveal himself to all creation and makes repeated efforts to bring people to the knowledge of him during this life. That is why we are to pray for the lost and that God sends out workers to his harvest field. It makes it harder when they have not heard, but God will reveal himself to anyone who seeks for him.
From what Jesus described, hell is a place of horrible torment. Anyone who would have to go there for any amount of time would immediately repent and turn to Jesus if given the opportunity. However, Jesus illustrated in his parable with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. This rich man who had rejected God had fully repented while in hell and even asked that Abraham send Lazarus to his brothers on earth to warn them. Clearly, even with repentance after the fact, the rich man's sentence was set; first to this death, and then to the second death in the lake of fire described in Rev. 20. God doesn't want anyone to be lost and many are. This is the reality of this fallen world and our mandate to preach to gospel to every creature.

 

[Albion]

That's what I believe. All sinners, the worst and the not so bad..... all will bow, all will kneel, all will acknowledge the Supreme awesomeness of Christ our savior, His rightful place as part of the triune Godhead and the total omniscience of the God head.

Do you think that there's a chance that Mike Fleming's apparent point in post #476 is correct--that all men or every knee instead means something closer to all nations or peoples as opposed to every individual man?

 

[Rajni]

Actually Peter repented of his sin while he was still alive, so yeah...

How is this relevant to the point of my previous post?

When Scripture talks about sin - whose fault is it when I sin? God's? No, God did not create sin in me, but I'm the one who sin.

He created the product foreknowing (possibly even foreordaining) the flaws therein. He saw it coming, and proceeded anyway. I don't say this to blame Him, as I don't think God is to blame for anything. But it does raise questions about the usual narrative put forth surrounding the concept of sin and the role it plays on this plane of existence. It leaves God looking rather inept, I'm sorry to say. And as one who is convinced He is anything but inept, I find it surprising that churches would perpetuate such a narrative.

By this, we know that our condemnation is our own fault.

If our salvation isn't to our credit, our doom can't logically be to our discredit. It doesn't follow. What you're proposing is what's been termed "doublespeak".

When Scripture talks about salvation - who saves us? Do we save ourselves? No, it's written that we were dead in our sin, and just like something dead, we are entirely unable to do anything, much less quicken ourselves. Salvation comes from God.

So how can dead people be held accountable for anything? They're dead. They're entire unable to do anything.

Then we are left with this: Salvation is entirely from God, but damnation is entirely our fault. There are attempts at reasoning with this, however, it's best know by faith, not reason.

Reason isn't a bad thing. In fact, one would be well-advised to be highly suspicious of any teaching that asks you to put your brain in park in order to receive it. I'm not saying the left side of the brain should call the shots 24/7; I find that spirituality benefits greatly by letting the right side take over for awhile (especially since we're not going to have an answer for e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g before we die), so that our relationship with God doesn't grow dull and dry. But, ideally, reason should have, at the very least, helped in the construction of the foundation of one's beliefs. Faith's already got the whole belief that there is a God at all in the first place covered quite well.

This is a lengthy post, sorry. But I hope this clarifies

No worries. It echoes a lot of what I myself accepted for many years.

 

[JacksBratt]

Do you think that there's a chance that Mike Fleming's apparent point in post #476 is correct--that all men or every knee instead means something closer to all nations or peoples as opposed to every individual man?

I tend to hold to the belief that "every knee" means each and every human being, individually, will give Christ His worthy recognition by getting on their knees before Him and acknowledging His worthiness of their worship.

 

[Dartman]

This statement is true, but would only apply to you ..... IF ... you actually had Scriptures that clearly state your theories.... you don't.

So you say. Yet many disagree with you.

And yet you still don't provide any Scriptures .....

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Where does this say anyone will be annihilated or tortured forever?

"burned up" .. "leave them neither root nor branch" .... "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet".

God will be "All in all" & all "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22, 28).

No, Christ will turn the kingdom over to his God, in recognition that his God is "All in All" .... the SUPREME being.

1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All WILL be made alive! In this order:
1) Christ the first fruits (roughly 33AD)
2) Those that are Christs AT his coming (sometime future to today)
3) The wicked (1000 years after Christ's return (Rev 20))

 

[Hillsage]

You mean the wedding supper of the Lord right?

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

Essentially what Jesus is saying concerning the wedding supper of Lamb of God is, there will be NO GATE CRASHERS.

No, I mean we believe in a Savior who wins ALL in the end of His 'plan of the ages'.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
23 But each in his own order:

Your myopic view of God's plan simply dies with your 'one order' theological view, which falls short of scripture, which ascribes multiple ages to come. But the good news 'of scripture' is, there will be a day/order/age when even those like you will see clearly. And then you'll be just like those of us who are "called, drawn, predestined and ordained to believe"...and see now.

EPH 3:9 and to make ALL men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;

But being saved in this age (I'm assuming you are ) obviously doesn't mean you still can't be bound by the 'traditions and commandments and doctrines of men' who were more carnal minded than they were spiritual minded, in the 'doctrinal formative past'. Remember, they weren't called 'the dark ages' because the sun went out. They were called the dark ages because the Spirit was quenched by a ruthless church who martyred saints to achieve their political/religious goals. Even Luther was on their hit list, but the age of spiritual enlightenment would still prove 'the victor'.

 

[JacksBratt]

This is a hard topic, because we are dealing with the issue that God is love, but at the sametime the reality of eternal condemnation after death. Romans 1:20 says, "20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." Basically, God will and does reveal himself to all creation and makes repeated efforts to bring people to the knowledge of him during this life. That is why we are to pray for the lost and that God sends out workers to his harvest field. It makes it harder when they have not heard, but God will reveal himself to anyone who seeks for him.
From what Jesus described, hell is a place of horrible torment. Anyone who would have to go there for any amount of time would immediately repent and turn to Jesus if given the opportunity. However, Jesus illustrated in his parable with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. This rich man who had rejected God had fully repented while in hell and even asked that Abraham send Lazarus to his brothers on earth to warn them. Clearly, even with repentance after the fact, the rich man's sentence was set; first to this death, and then to the second death in the lake of fire described in Rev. 20. God doesn't want anyone to be lost and many are. This is the reality of this fallen world and our mandate to preach to gospel to every creature.

People seem to believe that God, being a loving God, cannot sentence someone to punishment for sin.

Why is that?

Yes, God is love, God is merciful, God would love to see all souls saved.
However, God is just. He cannot have people in His presence and spending eternity in fellowship with Him if they are sinful, tarnished, blemished, impure or as these things are described... as filthy rags. People who are unforgiven would be consumed by His total righteousness. Sin cannot exist in His presence.

The only way to overcome your sin is by paying the penalty, which is death.
There is no way around that. God cannot break the rules He has set out or are the laws of His universal reign.

So, Christ was the way around. He paid the price of death. God has no choice.

It is not God who sends these people to hell........it is those people who chose to go there..it is there sins that drag them down.

 

[Albion]

I tend to hold to the belief that "every knee" means each and every human being, individually, will give Christ His worthy recognition by getting on their knees before Him and acknowledging His worthiness of their worship.

Fair enough, although I think it's a poetic statement and the other explanation is as likely of being correct. No matter. The more pertinent question concerns whether whoever is kneeling or bowing is saved because of it. I don't think that follows.

 

[Mike Fleming]

The scripture in Rev. 20, "10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Jude 1:7, "Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment." The judgement of hell is eternal. God's heavenly reward to his holy people as well is eternal, Their eternal rest and existance with the Father. Both are eternal consequences for a decision during this life to follow the will God and believe in his son Jesus, or be eternally separated to the place originally only intended for Satan and his angels. If the angels, who were also greated by God, will not get to repent in the end, why would men get this opportunity? Satan was cast out of heaven and destined for hell together with the hosts that followed him. Rev. 12:7-8. This place of torment will be for those humans as well who followed him in this life by disobeying the will of God. Rev. 21-8 “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate in the is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Hillsage]

This is a hard topic, because we are dealing with the issue that God is love, but at the sametime the reality of eternal condemnation after death. Romans 1:20 says, "20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." Basically, God will and does reveal himself to all creation and makes repeated efforts to bring people to the knowledge of him during this life. That is why we are to pray for the lost and that God sends out workers to his harvest field. It makes it harder when they have not heard, but God will reveal himself to anyone who seeks for him.
From what Jesus described, hell is a place of horrible torment. Anyone who would have to go there for any amount of time would immediately repent and turn to Jesus if given the opportunity. However, Jesus illustrated in his parable with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. This rich man who had rejected God had fully repented while in hell and even asked that Abraham send Lazarus to his brothers on earth to warn them. Clearly, even with repentance after the fact, the rich man's sentence was set; first to this death, and then to the second death in the lake of fire described in Rev. 20. God doesn't want anyone to be lost and many are. This is the reality of this fallen world and our mandate to preach to gospel to every creature.

This whole story has it's basis in the OT, and the law of Moses, and Father Abraham. There is nothing in this to suggest a NT correlation. Jesus was speaking to Jews still under the law. If it did speak to you/me, then every Christian in America would be just as deserving of this "hell". This hell was for a man who's only 'qualifying wrongs' were he "was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day".....period, end of his wrongs. Hmmm, dare I say; HELLo America....overly rich, overly dressed, over fed and FAT...compared to most of the world. So, if you want to go to "Abe's bosom" (I prefer the bosom of Christ ) you go ahead. But, to qualify, according to this story, you must meet the standards of Lazarus; E.G. "poor, full of sores, hungry"....period.

But wait, there's hope for us in this 'story'. There was this "chasm which couldn't be crossed"!!!! Why not???? Wait a minute, PRAISE GOD, I know, I know, Because Jesus hadn't died yet. You do remember all those Chick tracts we used to hand out with the CROSS of Christ bridging the gap across the CHASM that separates us from God, I hope. Well maybe you don't remember, but hopefully there's a few around here who do.

 

[Rajni]

The Scriptures you list are wonderful, but they don't make the points you claim.

Interesting, because that's the same conclusion I've drawn about the Scriptures which people claim prove Partialism. What a surprise.

My current position wasn't debated into me, however, so I highly doubt it's the sort of thing that can be debated into people. It just becomes a "battle of the scriptures", and all that does is lend credence to the suspicion that there are contradictions therein.

I just put the info out there and let the more open readers (those not caught up in a full-on debate-mode defending their positions) come to their own conclusions.

I may have misunderstood you. In post 384 you responded to one of my posts:

JacksBratt said: ↑

In the end...........if you know scripture as well as you do, to be able to discuss and argue the points here.....................why wait and see? Why not just accept that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that He made the ultimate sacrifice for your sins.

Chaela said:
Why is this even a discussion?
And what better way to glorify Him and His sacrifice than to accept that He might be 100% successful in executing it, as would be fitting for a King of King and Lord of Lords?

I assumed you were saying that belief or waiting for postmortem salvation was glorifying Him.

Oh no, I wasn't saying that. I was simply putting forth the point that what (I find) glorifies God the best as King of Kings and Lord of Lords is His competence in the salvation area, best demonstrated by a 100% success-rate of restoring all mankind. Especially if his sacrifice is going to be termed as "the ultimate" sacrifice.

I work in retail, and I'm very much aware of how humans freak out when they don't get what they pay for on the material level. Therefore, I can't imagine (at least, not anymore) Jesus settling for less than what he paid for. And if what he paid for is humankind in its' entirety (as opposed to the Calvinistic chosen few), then that's what he should get. Out of all the soteriological paradigms out there, that is what would be the most God-glorifying scenario, imo.

You have now crossed over into the realm of slander and false witness. I am highly tempted to report this post to the mods. To infer that somehow because I think that God is love and will strive to save all, I desire drunkenness, fornication, blasphemy, idolatry, and the other sins mentioned in Galatians 5 is a reprehensible smear on my character and the character of all who hold to this doctrine in good faith, along with saints such as St. Isaac the Syrian. You should be ashamed of yourself!!

The way I see it, unless a person is speaking from first-hand experience being [whatever religious persuasion], they can't possibly know what they're talking about.

What you're reading can be more accurately described as rather self-revelatory descriptions of the kind of universalists they would be, if not how they actually were if/when they were universalists.

However—and I apologize for sounding like Captain Obvious on this point —for one to speak authoritatively on what it's like to be a universalist, one would have to actually have been a universalist. And even then, any possible mishandling of the paradigm as universalists on their part can no more be representative of the paradigm overall than a Westboro Baptist's handling of Christianity can be representative of Christianity overall.

But that line of thought assumes a certain view of universal salvation that is not what the universalists in early Christian history or more studious universalists these days assume about the afterlife.

It's not that everyone will be ushered immediately into heaven, the good and the bad equally...with the bad of course saying that they are sorry for the transgressions they didn't regret at all while alive in the flesh. Universalism most often seems to be described as an ULTIMATE rehabilitation that follows considerable punishment, etc.

True, universalism does seem to come in in different "speeds", from immediate restoration (and who is to say that alone isn't hellish in itself; the spiritual equivalent of high-speed surgery without painkillers) to a more drawn-out process.

-

 

[surrender1]

Paul was referring to ALL men as in Jews and Gentiles. Remember that God was sending Paul to preach to the Gentiles and to defend the cause of the Gospel going out to ALL men, and not just within the Jewish circle. It was Paul's calling to reach out to the Greeks, Romans and anyone else who listened, while Peter's calling was to the Jews. This has nothing to do with a universalist idea that we all go to heaven and that there is any opportunity beyond death for repentance. Revelation 20 warns that anyone whose name is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire, along with the beast and his false prophet and it says they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If all means Jews and Gentiles in general rather than all men, then we can no longer use Romans 5:18 to say that Adam's one trespass led to condemnation for all men. I guess some men weren't condemned by Adam's one trespass.