Universalism...why not?

[Light of the East]

Here, I'll post it. (Word Press is an idiot site to work with)

In the Western Church, the default position on our eternal existence after this life is that we either wind up in heaven (after a brief stop in Purgatory for Catholics – and Protestants who are stunned and surprised to find out that there is such a place), or we wind up in a state of Eternal Conscious Torment (hereafter referred to as ECT).

I have questions that keep vexing my mind and spirit. These questions are based on the assumption that ECT is true. Working from the assumption that ECT is true, I desire someone in the Roman Catholic church, since they call themselves “THE Church” and therefore assume to themselves the title of “pillar and ground of truth,” to give me an answer for the following nettlesome questions from their in their storehouse of doctrinal and intellectual infallibility.

1. If ECT is true, and the decisions we make in this life determine our final destiny, then why would God allow Satan to tempt, trick, and torment us into making decisions which will result in an eternity of shrieking pain? Surely we have enough within ourselves which is capable of taking us away from the Lord without having an additional enemy who is immensely more clever than we to trick us into perdition?

2. If the wicked one was defeated at the Cross, then by what power does he have the authority to wage warfare against human beings? My understanding of the Cross is that it has defeated Satan and stripped him of all his usurped rulership over Creation. How then is he allowed to prowl around and attack mankind, and for what possible purpose?

3. If God desires the salvation of all (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) , then why would He allow the wicked one to enact warfare against us, knowing that if we fall, we damn ourselves forever. (Remember, I am asking these questions under the assumption that ECT is true.) If it is my desire that my son live a virtuous life, I am not going to introduce him to the local hooker in town, and if she shows up on my porch looking specifically for my son, I will chase her down the street with an axe handle. Is God any less Father to us than the best of earthly fathers?

4. If the Roman church is the true church, which is described in 1 Tim. 3: 15 as the “pillar and ground of truth,” then the Roman church can never teach error. This is what Roman Catholics tell me all the time in their defense of “Holy Mother the Church” – that She cannot err in all matters doctrinal and moral. Therefore, if the Roman church is the Church and cannot err, then how did this infallible body interpret the Greek word “aionios,” which means “age-long” or “age-during” to be eternal and not catch and correct that error? How does an infallible interpretive body place an erroneous interpretation on Scripture? And this is not the only place either. The old Douay-Rheims Bible had a terrible interpretation of Mark 1: 4 in which that version says:

“John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.”

No, that’s not what the Greek says AT ALL!!! The Greek word is μετάνοια (metanoia) and it carries the meaning of “a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done” To repent is therefore a change in the very inner ontological being of the person, so that the things which you approved of, participated in, or loved (especially as sins in the religious context) you now disagree with, dispise, and shun their doing.

Penance, on the other hand, is defined as “voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.”

These two meanings are as different as day and night, and show the difference between Eastern thought, which is focused on the ontological change in a person made by a radical transformation of thought leading to a changed life, and Western thought, which is consumed with the breaking of law and making payments or suffering punishments therein. This is why when you go to a Melkite or other Eastern Christian priest and confess, you will not receive a penance to perform. I remember confessing to a Melkite priest once, and at the end, when he realized that I was hanging around waiting for my penance, he said graciously and in a somewhat joking manner, “You are forgiven. Beat it!”

5. If truth is the sole criteria by which one inherits eternal life, then why would God allow a heretic a second breath after his first heretical pronouncement? If you read the writings of the Early Fathers, they had an extreme animus against heresies, considering them to be “soul-damning,” or in other words, a quick descent into ECT. If this is true, then why would a heretic be allowed to put out ideas that would separate us from God forever, especially in light of those verses which state that God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the true God?

Perhaps the most dangerous, arrogant, and hubris-filled words in the universe are, “Well, if I were God…..” They are probably the same words muttered in some corner of heaven by the Light Bearer before he was caught and cast down to become the enemy of our souls and the bearer of darkness. Yet they hang around the corner of my mind whispering to me: “If I was God…..I would hit a heretic with lightening before I would let him deceive one of my children whom I want saved.” Do I lie and act like I am a person who is just filled with faith and trust in God regardless of all that is bothering me, or do I make this public pronouncement and wait for the fiery condemnations of fellow Christians to log in my com box?

6. Why is it that all the visions which are experienced by seers in the Roman Catholic Church have to do with ECT? It seems that the great majority of the visions are replete with dire warnings that the whole world is going into eternal fire, that only a handful are going to escape (which makes me wonder why people would bother when faced with such an unencouraging message), and that the torments are beyond just mere punishment, but seem to indicate an absolute delight in finding ways to make souls as miserable as possible forever. Traditional Roman Catholic blogs and websites have a peculiar fondness for pictures such as the one posted at the beginning of this musing. In them, I fail to see the sorrowful heart of God over the devastation of sin as much as I see a sheer delight in the wicked “getting theirs.” Christ wept over sinners. We seem to delight in them getting as much hell as they can.

7. If ECT is true, why are you, dear Roman Catholic reader, not out right now – right at this very second! – doing what the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons do so well – knocking on as many doors as you can and pleading with people to save themselves from never-ending pain? In fact, why are there so few sermons in the Roman church about this? Jonathan Edwards may have been nuts, but at least his behavior was consistent with his belief system. You can’t even say that for the Romans, who are the ones who got this whole mess promoted and off the ground in the Medieval Ages with the writings of Anselm of Canterbury. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that hell and its torments are eternal, but apparently not many people are concerned about this – not even bishops and priests. There is a strange silence about this doctrine which, if ECT is true, certainly appears to come from a spirit most uncaring about our fellow travelers in this journey of life.

Could it be that you don’t care about your fellow man and his soul? If not, then the very fires in which you claim to believe may become your permanent home, according to Catholic teaching, which stresses that how we treat our fellow man is how God will treat us. You better hope that ECT is not true.

8. Why is the Roman church now backtracking on limbo and the fate of those who have never heard of Christ? Could it be that they have come to realize just how unfair – and therefore a smear on His character – it appears to people to say that unbaptized infants are denied heaven when it is of no fault of their own? How unfair it appears that the millions (billions?) who ever lived and never heard of Christ are not only denied heaven, but are tormented to some degree.

But here’s the rub – the Roman church taught all of this as true at one time, and if the Roman church is infallible, they cannot just change the truth to suit modern tastes. On the other hand, if the Roman church is not so infallible, then perhaps they have messed up in believing Anselm’s little nightmare as well. (David Bentley Hart refers to Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo as “Catholics in the Hands of a Psychotic God.” I rather like that description.)

9. Does anyone ever stop to ask, when confronted with the claims of the Roman church regarding the nature and duration of hell – the nature being anything as horribly painful and wretchedly grotesque as you can imagine, and the duration being “You have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed me off and I am going to fry you forever!” – whether a God with that kind of character would be someone with whom they would want to spend forever? I mean, is it possible that God might even turn on you one day and decide that frying you would be a positive experience?

10. What is the purpose of ECT? What possible good does it fulfill in God’s universe? Is there an accomplishment of the end which the Bible states is the will and desire of God, the salvation of all mankind, of every person who ever lived? To what end is it to maintain sinners forever in a state of rebellion, hatred, and animosity against God, which would be for God to, in a real sense, to keep sin alive forever, when the Bible says that it is a defeated foe and will come to an end?

Come on, all you Roman Catholics and Protestants who believe in ECT and a God who delights in tormenting the wicked so that He can feel good, let’s have an answer, shall we?

I cannot deny that the Bible speaks about the Lord’s anger, but does that anger really last forever? Is He implacable and unable to forgive? Or is it we who in the deepest part of our black little hearts, would gladly take our enemies and slow roast them forever, cackling in glee over their screams of torment?

I certainly don’t ascribe that kind of behavior to a God of whom it is said is love.

 

[GillDouglas]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) T or F

Let me help you out with your quote of Peter:

"For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (2 Peter 3:5-10)

"Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." (2 Peter 3:14-18)

 

[GillDouglas]

True.

The whole "no second chances" argument really doesn't make much sense. Besides, the "second chance" option is supposedly available to those who die never having heard of Christ, so yeah...

Actually Peter repented of his sin while he was still alive, so yeah...

 

[GillDouglas]

Wow! Really???

So every poor schmuck who was living in the European continent before and during the time of Christ, every Eskimo in Alaska, the Native Americans in North America, and a great host of others who, through the simple fate of their birth outside of Jerusalem and the Jewish faith, never heard the Gospel and of Christ are basically screwed???

And you think that is just and right of God?

You know what, that isn't even scriptural. Go read Romans 2:13-16 and come back to me when you "get it." God's mercy is greater than painted by this guy you quoted.

I always found it interesting when I was a Fundamentalist when someone would ask, "What about natives in Africa that never heard the Gospel." and the answer was always along the lines of "They are going to hell." (Translated as "Too bad for them, but they don't get in.) as if the respondent was saying. "Well, I'm saved and therefore God is just to send them to hell."

One wonders if the respondent to that question would feel the same way if it was HE who was condemned to a fiery torment of everlasting misery simply because of being born in the wrong place in the wrong time.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

"Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:19-24)

 

[Light of the East]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

"Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:19-24)

You should know you cannot pit the Bible against the Bible. If there is a conflict, then you must resolve it in some way, and the verses you put up to prove that there is no forgiveness for those who have not been told are in conflict with other verses like this:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Therefore, in some manner you have to reconcile Romans 1 with Romans 2. The answer is simple:

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Paul was vexed by the Jews and the "Party of the Circumcision" until the day he died in Rome. The Jews thought that they were above the Law, and they thought that they alone would receive heaven simple by the fact of being circumcised into the Covenant of God. Women and Gentiles were "dogs" who did not have souls and were condemned.

Paul's writing therefore in Romans, directed to the Jews as 2:17 shows, strives to show them that they too are under the same curse of ungodliness and sin and they too need Christ. You cannot make a generic statement about this and condemn out of hand all who have not heard the Gospel. Romans 2 does not allow for it.

This is one thing I have come to despise about Calvinism. It severely limits the mercy of God. The idea of our Father choosing people to experience torment forever is horrid. That figure of God is no better than the evil pagan "gods" of the false religions.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Yeah that doesn't really make much sense to me.

You're quite right in that it doesn't make sense, but that's no cause for alarm or disbelief

Scripture has many paradoxes. Critics will point these out as inconsistencies and contradictions, but this is due to their own lack of faith and sin.

Here's an example of what I mean: Christ is fully man and fully God. Not 50% man and 50% God. Not an individual man and an individual God; but one person with two full natures. He is uncreated and was before all things, yet he was born of the virgin Mary. These statements cannot be reasoned with - they just don't make sense through human reasoning if you really think about it. Does this then mean that these claims are false? Does Scripture deceive? No. What it means is that these truths are apprehended by faith and not so much reason.

Reason has a place in Christian thinking, but we also have to appreciate that the mysteries of God are simply too high for us to comprehend, and therefore we are called to faith. Furthermore, because we are sinful and evil, our ability to reason is also bent on evil and should not be trusted over God's Word.

When Scripture talks about sin - whose fault is it when I sin? God's? No, God did not create sin in me, but I'm the one who sin. On this point the Word is clear: Only God is good, and all have fallen short of the glory of God. No one is good, not even one. By this, we know that our condemnation is our own fault.

When Scripture talks about salvation - who saves us? Do we save ourselves? No, it's written that we were dead in our sin, and just like something dead, we are entirely unable to do anything, much less quicken ourselves. Salvation comes from God.

Then we are left with this: Salvation is entirely from God, but damnation is entirely our fault. There are attempts at reasoning with this, however, it's best know by faith, not reason. This is a lengthy post, sorry. But I hope this clarifies

 

[GillDouglas]

This is one thing I have come to despise about Calvinism. It severely limits the mercy of God. The idea of our Father choosing people to experience torment forever is horrid. That figure of God is no better than the evil pagan "gods" of the false religions.

Since you've decided to share what you despise, I would like to share as well. What frustrates me is individuals severe lack of understanding concerning who God is and what God wants, and what God will do. God is not a creature that is subject to ideals of men, though He is personal, He has supreme dignity and freedom as the only autonomous being. God is the supreme authority of ALL of His creation. God is the author, He created ALL things and therefore is the ultimate authority. He owns it, and because of His ownership gives Him the unquestionable right to do what is pleasing to His holy will.

God created ALL things for His own glory, not for anyone or anything else. We add nothing, absolutely nothing to His glory or His righteousness. By His grace, He has given us life by creating us. By His grace, while we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, He has made us spiritually alive through the work of the Holy Spirit. By His grace, though His enemies as children of Wrath He has adopted us as children of God.

All are sinners. No one deserves life. No one deserves salvation. God abhors sin, and any who would stand before Him in their sin would instantly perish. Yet out of the the masses, many will be called to faith in Christ so that His righteousness will present them without blemish to the Father. We are grateful that He would allow for ANY to be saved.

 

[The Times]

No, twist it anyay you like, the fact remains, we cannot see any example of the cities or inhabitants of Sodom burning eternally today. But we can see the "example" in the Middle East where the "fire" which was not eternal burned out long ago. Just as eternal punishment for the correction of sinners will end, since it is no more eternal than the fire of Sodom was.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

You mean see with your eyes......mmmmmm......

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (Romans 8)

 

[The Times]

That there is an abundance of theological 'stinkin thinkin' has proven to be most evident throughout the historical church realm. Your opinion' of my post is duly noted. I'm also more than happy to wait for the day of judgment for and overdue apology, from whoever has represented the best characterization of the God of the universe.

You mean the wedding supper of the Lord right?

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

Essentially what Jesus is saying concerning the wedding supper of Lamb of God is, there will be NO GATE CRASHERS.

 

[mkgal1]

As I said before, there are no atheists after death. At that time all the knowledge of all time will be given to you. You will not need faith. Faith will be history. As will be your chance to then be granted salvation. Because, at this time every soul will knell and admit that Christ is the messiah. Every soul.

So.....let me see if I'm understanding you: A person dies---they then recognize and profess Jesus as God and praise Him--yet you believe God will respond in a way that demonstrates they're "too late"? They missed their window of opportunity?

Let me ask this: WHY (of course this is COMPLETELY conjecture)....do you believe God is interested in reconciling us to Him? Do you believe it's more of a test we must pass (where He longs for the "top of the class" students)?

 

[The Times]

Since you've decided to share what you despise, I would like to share as well. What frustrates me is individuals severe lack of understanding concerning who God is and what God wants, and what God will do. God is not a creature that is subject to ideals of men, though He is personal, He has supreme dignity and freedom as the only autonomous being. God is the supreme authority of ALL of His creation. God is the author, He created ALL things and therefore is the ultimate authority. He owns it, and because of His ownership gives Him the unquestionable right to do what is pleasing to His holy will.

God created ALL things for His own glory, not for anyone or anything else. We add nothing, absolutely nothing to His glory or His righteousness. By His grace, He has given us life by creating us. By His grace, while we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, He has made us spiritually alive through the work of the Holy Spirit. By His grace, though His enemies as children of Wrath He has adopted us as children of God.

All are sinners. No one deserves life. No one deserves salvation. God abhors sin, and any who would stand before Him in their sin would instantly perish. Yet out of the the masses, many will be called to faith in Christ so that His righteousness will present them without blemish to the Father. We are grateful that He would allow for ANY to be saved.

The way that Universalist fashion God is according to wishful thinking. They don't believe that there are consequences that would eternally separate them from God, because they have a desire to live lifestyles according to their own wills and lifestyles contrary to what Jesus taught and at the same time believe that God won't dare send them to eternal punishment and separation from him.

Who exactly is dictating terms to who?

You see, I mentioned in previous posts that they will...

1 Foresake the blood covenant and side with the world.

2 Pay little to no regard to what Jesus had instructed, by denying him and saying that he was only instructing the Jews and not us, the church. So that Jesus is NOT the final authority in matters concerning life.

3 Their will trumps the will of God the Father.

We have the Anthtopos of Sin being manifest in our times, who think and promote the efficacy to change the times and laws of God and to promote an autonomous law society to serve the creature rather than the Creator.

The same Universalist lie is being spouted on the unsuspecting and it will ultimately initiate and end in the great falling away from the faith.

Why Universalist believe in an autonomous society, is to embrace the sins of the world, in that they can live life to the fullest, without the guilt and acknowledgement that certain lifestyles are abhorrent to God.

In this regard God and his Christ is relegated to being passengers to their own creation. Universalism is a hijacking of the true Christian faith from within.

 

[GillDouglas]

The way that Universalist fashion God is according to wishful thinking. They don't believe that there are consequences that would eternally separate them from God, because they have a desire to live lifestyles according to their own wills and lifestyles contrary to what Jesus taught and at the same time believe that God won't dare send them to eternal punishment and separation from him.

Who exactly is dictating terms to who?

You see, I mentioned in previous posts that they will...

1 Foresake the blood covenant and side with the world.

2 Pay little to no regard to what Jesus had instructed, by denying him and saying that he was only instructing the Jews and not us, the church. So that Jesus is NOT the final authority in matters concerning life.

3 Their will trumps the will of God the Father.

We have the Anthtopos of Sin being manifest in our times, who think and promote the efficacy to change the times and laws of God and to promote an autonomous law society to serve the creature rather than the Creator.

The same Universalist lie is being spouted on the unsuspecting and it will ultimately initiate and end in the great falling away from the faith.

Why Universalist believe in an autonomous society, is to embrace the sins of the world, in that they can live life to the fullest, without the guilt and acknowledgement that certain lifestyles are abhorrent to God.

In this regard God and his Christ is relegated to being passengers to their own creation. Universalism is a hijacking of the true Christian faith from within.

Absolutely, you have hit the nail on the head with several of your posts. If one can simply wait it out, what point is there to doing anything that God has commanded? They would say "I have no need to love God, or my neighbor because God loves me enough."

Who would have thought that a Presbyterian Christian (A dreadful Calvinist even!) and an Eastern Orthodox Christian would strongly agree on any point!

 

[The Times]

Absolutely, you have hit the nail on the head with several of your posts. If one can simply wait it out, what point is there to doing anything that God has commanded? They would say "I have no need to love God, or my neighbor because God loves me enough."

Who would have thought that a Presbyterian Christian (A dreadful Calvinist even!) and an Eastern Orthodox Christian would strongly agree on any point!

There is unity in the body of Christ, where God strategically has placed his sheep within every denomination.

 

[Dartman]

Well, obviously it isn't that clear, else threads like this wouldn't exist.

He's the Savior of all, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10).
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lamentations 3:31)
-

Threads like this exist because most people refuse to accept all Scripture.
God IS the savior of all mankind, in MANY ways, but He has a very SPECIAL salvation for those who believe.
Lam 3:31 is talking about the restoration of natural Israel, not every individual.
The Scriptures you list are wonderful, but they don't make the points you claim.
Please explain the utter lack of any sermon or explanation that matches your position.

 

[Dartman]

Wow! Really???

So every poor schmuck who was living in the European continent before and during the time of Christ, every Eskimo in Alaska, the Native Americans in North America, and a great host of others who, through the simple fate of their birth outside of Jerusalem and the Jewish faith, never heard the Gospel and of Christ are basically screwed???

Not in the least.
They are covered by God's iron clad promise; "seek, and ye shall find".
EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has God's creation for evidence.
EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has to come to grips with that reality, and we know all cultures have noticed.
EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has God's Promise that HE will draw near to them ...... IF ... they draw near to HIM.
A classic example is Cornelius, a second is the eunuch in Acts 8, a third is Abram in UR.
Do you REALLY think the Creator of this universe doesn't have the power to discern those that are genuinely seeking Him???

 

[Dartman]

Sorry, duplicate post ....

 

[The Times]

Happy Birthday. May God give you long life and wisdom.

 

[ClementofA]

Let me help you out with your quote of Peter:

"For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (2 Peter 3:5-10)

"Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." (2 Peter 3:14-18)

This passage does not that say those destroyed cannot be saved.

Regarding the Greek word for "destruction":

"684 /apoleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165;"

The "loss of well being" will be their punishment that will serve to correct them for their own good & ultimate salvation.

God is love. Not a sadist.

The word "destruction" can also refer to "the putting of a man to death". Those put to death in the 2nd death, the lake of fire, will yet be saved when God becomes "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) & all are "in Christ" (v.22).

In Revelation the gates into the heavenly city are always open.

 

[ClementofA]

Absolutely, you have hit the nail on the head with several of your posts. If one can simply wait it out, what point is there to doing anything that God has commanded? They would say "I have no need to love God, or my neighbor because God loves me enough."

Clearly you have done little if any reading of Early Church Father Christian Bible believing Universalists. Otherwise you wouldn't be so extremely misinformed.

Evidently you have also read next to nothing of what Bible believing Universalists have said in more recent times. That is, after the dominance of sadistic hellfire advocates through the Dark Ages & Middle Ages of history (e.g. Inquisitions, Crusades, burning "heretics" to death, etc).

Such darkness is the fruit associated with your viewpoint re the after life. How many millions have turned away from considering Christ or have left the faith as a result?

 

[ClementofA]

The way that Universalist fashion God is according to wishful thinking.

Believing the Scriptures is not wishful thinking.

You're EO & have never read re the Universalist belief in the Early Church Fathers?

The Church Fathers on Universalism