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Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Kerensa

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Apocatastasis... didn't know that word before, but now there's a tongue-twister. :p Sounds like something you'd sing or chant repeatedly as a warm-up before a vocal performance!

Seriously, I haven't joined in this discussion much, but I keep on and on and on noticing how many times proponents of universal salvation have had accusations like these thrown at them...

- Universalism means trying to create "one world religion"
- Christian Universalism means the same thing as Unitarian Universalism
- Universalism means there's no punishment at all for sin, that morality can be thrown out the window and "anything goes" because we're all forgiven anyway
- Universalism makes our Lord's sacrifice on the cross absolutely meaningless
- Universalism means we don't need Christ in order to be saved

And so on... yet I haven't seen a single universalist in this discussion advocate anything like any of those positions. In fact, if you read their posts, they all seem to be stressing quite the opposite. But then, repeatedly mischaracterising one's opponents' positions is a sure sign that one is losing the argument. ;)
 
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Hillsage

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So are you suggesting that ALL people are saved automatically without the need repentance from sins or the confession of faith in Jesus Christ?
Wow, this thread is moving so fast I think I went back and quoted your post thinking it was another post. Someone posted concerning Lazarus and the rich man to prove eternal hell. And I've tried to look at the last 4 pages to find it, and I can't. So just disregard my post as being intended for you, I guess. :scratch:
 
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Light of the East

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I was born into Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is not what you make it out to be. There is absolutely no teaching that has testing of soul after a person dies. Once a person dies, then immediately they are judged every man according to their works.

I have sat in countless liturgies and sermons towards the end, when the priest ministers and I have never heard of such Universalist teachings. In fact I have been well acquainted that the Christian world is heading towards Rome for a uniting of religions, Christian and others and this where Universalist teaching plays at that and references certain church fathers out of context to further the ecumenical agenda.

I don't go with the flow, I'm Orthodox and so I reflect on the churche's past teachings and will not break with them in order to support this one world religious antithesis foley.

Next time you use Protestant sounding language I will point it out to you.

Does the name David Bentley Hart ring a bell with you. How about Fr. Aiden Kimmel? Both are Orthodox and preach very stridently (much more than I) in support of apocatastasis.
 
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mkgal1

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This is what I mean by "fundamentalism" in general. From what I'm understanding....there is a branch of Islam called "salafi". Some of the identifiers are that advocates use the phrase "pure Islam" (inferring that all other forms are in error), they glorify the "golden age" of the past (which was when women were most oppressed)....they disregard cultural context when reading holy text (and read in a more literal way). It's very rigid and full of rules (like what the Pharisees did to Judaism)....and "sacrifice" is emphasized.

An example of what's expected under this system: If your parents are drinking alcohol in their home.....you are expected to remove yourself from that environment (isolating yourself from your loved-ones) in the name of this version of god. You can see this sort of expectation in a LOT of religions--and, to me, that seems like it's more man's ideas than God's.
 
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Light of the East

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After many times stating that the belief in apocatastasis does not indicate that sinners get off scot-free from punishment, there are still people here claiming that this is what we believe.

Sheeesh!
 
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ClementofA

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The scripture in Rev. 20, "10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?



 
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Kerensa

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After many times stating that the belief in apocatastasis does not indicate that sinners get off scot-free from punishment, there are still people here claiming that this is what we believe.

Sheeesh!

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It seems to be a case of, if you can't argue with someone's point, misstate it as something it isn't. :confused:

Myself, I'm just heartened to see there are so many brothers and sisters here, and from various branches of Christianity, who not only understand that our God WILL NOT let anyone be lost forever, but are courageous enough to stand up and say it, and to show plenty of Scriptural support for that understanding as well.
 
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ClementofA

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I have sat in countless liturgies and sermons towards the end, when the priest ministers and I have never heard of such Universalist teachings.

[snip]

I don't go with the flow, I'm Orthodox and so I reflect on the churche's past teachings and will not break with them in order to support this one world religious antithesis foley.

There seems to be quite a few, or a lot, of universalists in the E Orthodox church:

"Is this true that in the Orthodox Church there are still two quite opposite views existing, one of which holds that everybody will sooner or later be delivered by God from the hell, and another one stating that those who are not saved will be tormented in the hell forever?

"...This is quite true. You can read equally compelling arguments and decide for yourself."

Universalism in the Orthodox Church?

"I would very much like to be a Universalist. In terms of my Christian hope, in terms of my emotional attachments, I would love to believe that in the end, no one would harden their heart against the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ, all would repent and believe, and all would find salvation in the age to come. I believe that this is at least a logical possibility, as there is no person who ever lived who could not repent, to whom God does not extend the offer of salvation.

"In recent years, Universalism has become a popular option in the Protestant world. This is true not only of larger mainline denominations in which the idea of any condemnation coming from God has been rejected for going on two centuries, but also increasingly in evangelical circles through popular books like Rob Bell’s Love Wins. Of late, it has begun making inroads into the beliefs of some Orthodox Christians, at least in the United States, albeit in a version carefully tailored to circumvent conciliar condemnation.

"It is readily apparent that the sort of naked Universalism popular in the Protestant world, the simple denial of any real judgment or condemnation of anyone in the world in any age by Christ, is incompatible with the teachings of the Orthodox Faith. (Even in this, there is occasional push-back offered by some Orthodox Christians in the form of casting doubt upon the Fifth Ecumenical Council and/or attempting to rehabilitate Origen, but I leave it to another author to address the patristic witness on this issue).

"Rather, therefore, the particular form of Universalism making its appeal to the Orthodox faithful is a modified one, which does not deny judgment or the existence of a hell outright, but which renders these as purgative, such that everyone is eventually saved after a time of punishment. This seems appealing to many because it seems to preserve God’s Justice in punishing sin while also reflecting great compassion. Many converts to the Orthodox Faith were attracted by the teaching of a God whose Love is more ultimate than His Justice, as opposed to the God of wrath and retribution posited in Western theories of penal substitutionary atonement, and this form of Universalism seems to be the continuation of the move in that direction....

"...You too quickly dismiss the thoughts of Orthodox universalists. And you dismiss them with a casual effort. The metaphors and images that dominate all of the Pascha liturgical tradition tends to have a universalist flavor. You can argue that hell is still eternal based on Scripture and the 5th Council, but you cannot deny that the flavor is still there and it runs through tons of patristic material (cf. Ilaria Romelli’s work)."


Hell (Unfortunately) Yes: Why I Can't Be a Universalist – Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
No, Christ will turn the kingdom over to his God, in recognition that his God is "All in All" .... the SUPREME being.

All WILL be made alive! In this order:
1) Christ the first fruits (roughly 33AD)
2) Those that are Christs AT his coming (sometime future to today)
3) The wicked (1000 years after Christ's return (Rev 20))
As in Adam all die
"As in Adam all die" doesn't relate.
 
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Rajni

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After many times stating that the belief in apocatastasis does not indicate that sinners get off scot-free from punishment, there are still people here claiming that this is what we believe.
Of course. Makes it easier to reject that with which one doesn't agree. It's the oldest trick in the book.
proxy


Wrongdoings come with consequences built right in. It's more accurate to say that we are punished by our sin, rather than for it (the latter being something that, under the substitutionary atonement model anyway, would've already been taken care of through Jesus).

Therefore, the only way to get off scot-free from punishment—more accurately known by it's less "churchy" term, "consequences"—is to never do wrong in the first place. Soooo.... Are they suggesting that universalists are sinless? Because while that's really sweet, the answer is that no, we're just as prone to messing up as the partialists are.


-
 
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The Times

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No, I mean we believe in a Savior who wins ALL in the end of His 'plan of the ages'.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
23 But each in his own order:


Your myopic view of God's plan simply dies with your 'one order' theological view, which falls short of scripture, which ascribes multiple ages to come. But the good news 'of scripture' is, there will be a day/order/age when even those like you will see clearly. And then you'll be just like those of us who are "called, drawn, predestined and ordained to believe"...and see now.

EPH 3:9 and to make ALL men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;

But being saved in this age (I'm assuming you are :hug:) obviously doesn't mean you still can't be bound by the 'traditions and commandments and doctrines of men' who were more carnal minded than they were spiritual minded, in the 'doctrinal formative past'. Remember, they weren't called 'the dark ages' because the sun went out. They were called the dark ages because the Spirit was quenched by a ruthless church who martyred saints to achieve their political/religious goals. Even Luther was on their hit list, but the age of spiritual enlightenment would still prove 'the victor'.

I kindly urge you to look around you in the world and the times that we are living in and see....

Do you see what I see?

2I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. 4And there before me was the glory of the God of Israel, as in the vision I had seen in the plain.

5Then he said to me, “Son of man, look toward the north.” So I looked, and in the entrance north of the gate of the altar I saw this idol of jealousy.

6And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing—the utterly detestable things the Israelites are doing here, things that will drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see things that are even more detestable.”

7Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. 8He said to me, “Son of man, now dig into the wall.” So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there.

9And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” 10So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and unclean animals and all the idols of Israel. 11In front of them stood seventy elders of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

12He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’ ”13Again, he said, “You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.”

14Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning the god Tammuz. 15He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.”

16He then brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord, and there at the entrance to the temple, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men. With their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, they were bowing down to the sun in the east.

17He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the people of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually arouse my anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.” (Ezekiel 8:2-18)

THE TIMES ARE HERE UPON US AND THE IDOL THAT PROVOKES TO JEALOUSY (ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE) HAS BEING ERECTED AND REVEALED.

GOD IS COMING WITH A VENGENCE, THERE IS NO PEACE, WAR IS DECLARED UPON THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD FROM ABOVE.


YOU SPEAK OF ALL BEING SAVED, hmmmmm...

"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (Mathew 24:22)

The blind will lead the blind in the final days. There be many who will curse God when the worlds (universes) collide and I mean many. Universalism people say, Peace and Safety, really! HA!

THE IDOL THAT PROVOKES TO JEALOUSY IS THE ANTHROPOS OF SIN SITTING IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD PROCLAIMING THEMSELVES AS GOD.

The knife has sliced into the cheese, there is no turning back, you all ought to prostrate yourselves and plead for your souls, because the Destroyer has been sent and is on ITS way. Mercy mercy, start seeing how the Almighty God destroys marvelously what he has created.

Universalism?? HA!
 
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Kerensa

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Wrongdoings come with consequences built right in. It's more accurate to say that we are punished by our sin, rather than for it (the latter being something that, under the substitutionary atonement model anyway, would've already been taken care of through Jesus).
-

Again like the Prodigal Son. His sins brought their own inevitable punishment. He suffered those consequences severely until he finally "came to himself" and realised even a hired servant in his father's house would be better off. He turned around and went home in utter abject humility, convinced he no longer deserved to be called his father's son. Before he was anywhere near home, his father ran to meet him, engulfed him in his arms, and even as the son was admitting his sins and his unworthiness — before he could even get to the request "Make me as one of your hired servants" — welcomed him back to his full status as a son, to everything he thought he had lost.

The father doesn't even mention his son's wrongdoings, let alone any notion of punishment. Not because those sins didn't deserve to be punished. They did, and they were — by the whole nature of sin, they brought their inescapable consequences, and the son suffered until he woke up to what he'd done. He'd suffered enough to turn him around; there was no need for him to suffer further. The punishment ended when the sins were fully repented of and destroyed. Then there was nothing left for him but his father's love — which, implicitly, he had never truly lost even when he himself was lost in sin. What better illustration is there of how our Father works?
 
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Kerensa

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The knife has sliced into the cheese, there is no turning back, you all ought to prostrate yourselves and plead for your souls, because the Destroyer has been sent and is on ITS way. Mercy mercy, start seeing how the Almighty God destroys marvelously what he has created.

Universalism?? HA!

Like I already said, the doctrine of eternal punishment only works by paralysing one's thinking with fear. It doesn't work on people who already know God's love. ;)

There is no fear in love,
but perfect love casts out fear;
for fear has to do with punishment,
and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
(1 John 14:8)
 
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GillDouglas

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Like I already said, the doctrine of eternal punishment only works by paralysing one's thinking with fear. It doesn't work on people who already know God's love. ;)

There is no fear in love,
but perfect love casts out fear;
for fear has to do with punishment,
and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
(1 John 14:8)
Jesus said “Do not fear those who can kill the body; fear Him who is able to cast soul and body into hell.” (Matthew 10:28)
 
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mkgal1

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Again like the Prodigal Son. His sins brought their own inevitable punishment. He suffered those consequences severely until he finally "came to himself" and realised even a hired servant in his father's house would be better off. He turned around and went home in utter abject humility, convinced he no longer deserved to be called his father's son.
Right.....and with our free will (that's also demonstrated in the story).....I'm of the mind that that is what God wants from us--for US to "come to ourselves" and not be forced by any external means.

This made me think of this example that I had read about a person "coming to them self":

Father Greg Boyle said:
Louie was 19 years old, a gang member making money hand over fist by running up to cars and selling crack cocaine. He quickly became his own best customer. After my many attempts to get him into rehab, he finally agreed to check himself in. He was there one month when his younger brother Erick did something gang members never do. He put a gun to his temple and killed himself. Gang members are much more inclined to walk into enemy turf and hope to die than to pull the trigger themselves.

I called Louie and told him what happened. He was crestfallen. “I will pick you up for the funeral,” I said, “but I’m driving you right back.” “I want to come back,” he said through his tears. “I like how recovery feels.”


When I arrive at the rehab center, Louie greets me with un abrazo, and once in the car, he launches in. “I had a dream last night—and you were in it.” In the dream, he tells me, the two of us are in a darkened room. No lights whatsoever. No illuminated exit signs. No light creeping from under the door. Total darkness. We are not speaking, but he knows I am in the room with him. Then, silently, I pull a flashlight from my pocket and aim steadily on the light switch across the room. Louie tells me that he knows that only he can turn the light switch on. He expresses his gratitude that I happen to have a flashlight. Then with great trepidation, Louie moves slowly toward the light switch, following closely the guiding beam of light. He takes a deep breath, flips the switch on, and the room is flooded with light. As he tells me this, he begins sobbing. “And the light,” he says, “is better than the darkness.” As though he had not known this was the case.

We cannot turn the light switch on for anyone. But we all own flashlights. With any luck, on any given day, we know where to aim them for each other.~Father Greg Boyle: I thought I could “save” gang members. I was wrong.
 
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Hillsage

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Here, I'll post it. (Word Press is an idiot site to work with)

In the Western Church, the default position on our eternal existence after this life is that we either wind up in heaven (after a brief stop in Purgatory for Catholics – and Protestants who are stunned and surprised to find out that there is such a place), or we wind up in a state of Eternal Conscious Torment (hereafter referred to as ECT).

I have questions that keep vexing my mind and spirit. These questions are based on the assumption that ECT is true. Working from the assumption that ECT is true, I desire someone in the Roman Catholic church, since they call themselves “THE Church” and therefore assume to themselves the title of “pillar and ground of truth,” to give me an answer for the following nettlesome questions from their in their storehouse of doctrinal and intellectual infallibility.

  1. If ECT is true, and the decisions we make in this life determine our final destiny, then why would God allow Satan to tempt, trick, and torment us into making decisions which will result in an eternity of shrieking pain? Surely we have enough within ourselves which is capable of taking us away from the Lord without having an additional enemy who is immensely more clever than we to trick us into perdition?
2. If the wicked one was defeated at the Cross, then by what power does he have the authority to wage warfare against human beings? My understanding of the Cross is that it has defeated Satan and stripped him of all his usurped rulership over Creation. How then is he allowed to prowl around and attack mankind, and for what possible purpose?

3. If God desires the salvation of all (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) , then why would He allow the wicked one to enact warfare against us, knowing that if we fall, we damn ourselves forever. (Remember, I am asking these questions under the assumption that ECT is true.) If it is my desire that my son live a virtuous life, I am not going to introduce him to the local hooker in town, and if she shows up on my porch looking specifically for my son, I will chase her down the street with an axe handle. Is God any less Father to us than the best of earthly fathers?

4. If the Roman church is the true church, which is described in 1 Tim. 3: 15 as the “pillar and ground of truth,” then the Roman church can never teach error. This is what Roman Catholics tell me all the time in their defense of “Holy Mother the Church” – that She cannot err in all matters doctrinal and moral. Therefore, if the Roman church is the Church and cannot err, then how did this infallible body interpret the Greek word “aionios,” which means “age-long” or “age-during” to be eternal and not catch and correct that error? How does an infallible interpretive body place an erroneous interpretation on Scripture? And this is not the only place either. The old Douay-Rheims Bible had a terrible interpretation of Mark 1: 4 in which that version says:

“John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.”

No, that’s not what the Greek says AT ALL!!! The Greek word is μετάνοια (metanoia) and it carries the meaning of “a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done” To repent is therefore a change in the very inner ontological being of the person, so that the things which you approved of, participated in, or loved (especially as sins in the religious context) you now disagree with, dispise, and shun their doing.

Penance, on the other hand, is defined as “voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.”

These two meanings are as different as day and night, and show the difference between Eastern thought, which is focused on the ontological change in a person made by a radical transformation of thought leading to a changed life, and Western thought, which is consumed with the breaking of law and making payments or suffering punishments therein. This is why when you go to a Melkite or other Eastern Christian priest and confess, you will not receive a penance to perform. I remember confessing to a Melkite priest once, and at the end, when he realized that I was hanging around waiting for my penance, he said graciously and in a somewhat joking manner, “You are forgiven. Beat it!”

5. If truth is the sole criteria by which one inherits eternal life, then why would God allow a heretic a second breath after his first heretical pronouncement? If you read the writings of the Early Fathers, they had an extreme animus against heresies, considering them to be “soul-damning,” or in other words, a quick descent into ECT. If this is true, then why would a heretic be allowed to put out ideas that would separate us from God forever, especially in light of those verses which state that God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the true God?

Perhaps the most dangerous, arrogant, and hubris-filled words in the universe are, “Well, if I were God…..” They are probably the same words muttered in some corner of heaven by the Light Bearer before he was caught and cast down to become the enemy of our souls and the bearer of darkness. Yet they hang around the corner of my mind whispering to me: “If I was God…..I would hit a heretic with lightening before I would let him deceive one of my children whom I want saved.” Do I lie and act like I am a person who is just filled with faith and trust in God regardless of all that is bothering me, or do I make this public pronouncement and wait for the fiery condemnations of fellow Christians to log in my com box?

6. Why is it that all the visions which are experienced by seers in the Roman Catholic Church have to do with ECT? It seems that the great majority of the visions are replete with dire warnings that the whole world is going into eternal fire, that only a handful are going to escape (which makes me wonder why people would bother when faced with such an unencouraging message), and that the torments are beyond just mere punishment, but seem to indicate an absolute delight in finding ways to make souls as miserable as possible forever. Traditional Roman Catholic blogs and websites have a peculiar fondness for pictures such as the one posted at the beginning of this musing. In them, I fail to see the sorrowful heart of God over the devastation of sin as much as I see a sheer delight in the wicked “getting theirs.” Christ wept over sinners. We seem to delight in them getting as much hell as they can.

7. If ECT is true, why are you, dear Roman Catholic reader, not out right now – right at this very second! – doing what the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons do so well – knocking on as many doors as you can and pleading with people to save themselves from never-ending pain? In fact, why are there so few sermons in the Roman church about this? Jonathan Edwards may have been nuts, but at least his behavior was consistent with his belief system. You can’t even say that for the Romans, who are the ones who got this whole mess promoted and off the ground in the Medieval Ages with the writings of Anselm of Canterbury. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that hell and its torments are eternal, but apparently not many people are concerned about this – not even bishops and priests. There is a strange silence about this doctrine which, if ECT is true, certainly appears to come from a spirit most uncaring about our fellow travelers in this journey of life.

Could it be that you don’t care about your fellow man and his soul? If not, then the very fires in which you claim to believe may become your permanent home, according to Catholic teaching, which stresses that how we treat our fellow man is how God will treat us. You better hope that ECT is not true.

8. Why is the Roman church now backtracking on limbo and the fate of those who have never heard of Christ? Could it be that they have come to realize just how unfair – and therefore a smear on His character – it appears to people to say that unbaptized infants are denied heaven when it is of no fault of their own? How unfair it appears that the millions (billions?) who ever lived and never heard of Christ are not only denied heaven, but are tormented to some degree.

But here’s the rub – the Roman church taught all of this as true at one time, and if the Roman church is infallible, they cannot just change the truth to suit modern tastes. On the other hand, if the Roman church is not so infallible, then perhaps they have messed up in believing Anselm’s little nightmare as well. (David Bentley Hart refers to Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo as “Catholics in the Hands of a Psychotic God.” I rather like that description.)

9. Does anyone ever stop to ask, when confronted with the claims of the Roman church regarding the nature and duration of hell – the nature being anything as horribly painful and wretchedly grotesque as you can imagine, and the duration being “You have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off and I am going to fry you forever!” – whether a God with that kind of character would be someone with whom they would want to spend forever? I mean, is it possible that God might even turn on you one day and decide that frying you would be a positive experience?

10. What is the purpose of ECT? What possible good does it fulfill in God’s universe? Is there an accomplishment of the end which the Bible states is the will and desire of God, the salvation of all mankind, of every person who ever lived? To what end is it to maintain sinners forever in a state of rebellion, hatred, and animosity against God, which would be for God to, in a real sense, to keep sin alive forever, when the Bible says that it is a defeated foe and will come to an end?

Come on, all you Roman Catholics and Protestants who believe in ECT and a God who delights in tormenting the wicked so that He can feel good, let’s have an answer, shall we?

I cannot deny that the Bible speaks about the Lord’s anger, but does that anger really last forever? Is He implacable and unable to forgive? Or is it we who in the deepest part of our black little hearts, would gladly take our enemies and slow roast them forever, cackling in glee over their screams of torment?

I certainly don’t ascribe that kind of behavior to a God of whom it is said is love.
I just realized I never answered your Wordpress post, after I finished reading it. Though lacking in scriptural support, he does present an abundance of logical points which should cause any thinking ECT to reflect a bit more with their own brain instead of just yielding to brains who lived a long time ago and tweaked the truth of the 'good news gospel' into just 'a hell of a bad story' about an ugly God, IMO. ;)
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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Jesus said “Do not fear those who can kill the body; fear Him who is able to cast soul and body into hell.” (Matthew 10:28)
Sure.....He is absolutely able---but DOES He actually do it?

My childhood friend's dad had a joke he used to say to his children.....he'd say, "I brought you into this world.....I can take you out". That's true......right? Sadly......some parents have done just that, but my friend's dad didn't mean that literally he WOULD do that.
 
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Kerensa

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Or what if hell is (as some have pointed out earlier) the fire that burns away all sin and purifies "body and soul" — however long it takes and however agonising and terrifying it may be to us when we're in it — until nothing is left but God's image and likeness...? :blacksunrays:
 
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The Times

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That's interesting. This is from OrthoWiki (I've read that this belief isn't centered in one denomination, rather there are people with the belief of Universal Reconciliation across most denominations---I guess you're confirming that).

Apocatastasis

Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: ἀποκατάστασις; literally, "restoration" or "return") is the teaching that everyone will, in the end, be saved. It looks toward the ultimate reconciliation of good and evil; all creatures endowed with reason, angels and humans, will eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. It is based on, among other things, St. Peter's speech in Acts 3.21 ("Christ Jesus who must remain in heaven until the time of the final restoration of all things χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων") and St. Paul's letter to Timothy in which he says that it is God's will that all men should be saved (1 Timothy 2.4).

For Origen, this explicitly included the devil. In effect, apocatastasis denies the final reality of hell, and interprets all Biblical references to the "fires of hell" not as an eternal punishment, but a tool of divine teaching and correction, akin to purgatory. The implication is that hell exists to separate good from evil in the soul.

Among Catholics in the twentieth-century, this doctrine was reinvigorated especially by Hans Urs von Balthasar, who, in his book Dare We Hope 'That All Men Be Saved? (1988), expressed a qualified version of apocatastasis in which we may "hope" that all will be saved. Keeping in mind the conciliar condemnation of Origen, Orthodox theologians who tend towards universalism (the belief that all will be saved) usually argue that all may be saved.


Restoration context of all things refers back to the faith of the departed church fathers of faith......

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:6)

We are looking at restoration through a faith context of the faith once given to the apostolic saints.

What we observe today is a complete 180 degrees turning away from the faith of the credal church fathers.

So just like the fake mainstream news media outlets who push propaganda on the behest of the global corporations, there will also be the fake mainstream religious movement, that pushes ecumenism and Universalist teachings, that are being spouted just in recent years, by clergy inducted into this ecumenical one world Universalist Unitarian religious movement.

To me, the restoration of a one world unitarian universalist religious system is Mystery Babylon rising. The restoration that Peter and the Church fathers were pushing was restoration under a Universalist faith movement, that was tied to the Creeds of Christendom and never salvation outside of those Creeds. What the mainstream Unitarian Universalism religious system is now teaching and promoting is salvation outside of those Creeds and outside of the statements of beliefs and outside of the 7 sacrements of Christ. Therefore the term used by the fathers of faith is not the term used today within the mystery Babylon religious construct.

The wiki link you provided is a fraud sir, because it misrepresents Orthodoxy.
 
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