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Nothing about being rational is new. And nothing being put forth in this thread is new. I haven't seen a new, convincing argument against God's competence as Savior of the world since I kicked the partialist habit, and I'm certainly not holding my breath now.Your brand of rationalization here isn't new;
Rom 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Not remotely.
Once all the wicked are destroyed, burned up, no more, etc., then there is no more purpose for death.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Yes, I know, that is why I concluded that you got the point. Your reply was to my response, which matched YOUR restatement, without any attempt to add persuasive information. You merely repeated your position.I was using irony, which is why I had the winking smile icon at the end of that post.Dartman said:Excellent, you got the point. It's easy to exchange unsubstantiated claims, it just isn't persuasive.
Your claim that ... "much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. " offered just as much evidence as my response.
Many of the fiery judgment contexts FOLLOW Christ's return, and therefore are NOT discussing the Jews being punished for their rejection of Jesus, and his God.
Would you like me to explain the difference between rationalization, and actually BEING rational?Nothing about being rational is new. And nothing being put forth in this thread is new. I haven't seen a new, convincing argument against God's competence as Savior of the world since I kicked the partialist habit, and I'm certainly not holding my breath now.
This discussion misses the point. The context CLEARLY isn't stating "everyone will be saved". By contrast, it is showing that salvation is ONLY for those that believe.
There is no opportunity to believe AFTER this life.
Heb 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Is there a position (rationalization) on here that hasn't been repeated ad nauseam?Yes, I know, that is why I concluded that you got the point. Your reply was to my response, which matched YOUR restatement, without any attempt to add persuasive information. You merely repeated your position.
You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.
You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.
The Bible very plainly states that God intended and intends to destroy those creations of His that reject Him.
The fact that humans reject His array of gifts is their choice, not His.
You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.
The Bible very plainly states that God intended and intends to destroy those creations of His that reject Him.
The fact that humans reject His array of gifts is their choice, not His.
No it is not unsupported opinion.Your interpretation of words like "destroy" is exegesis.
Your comment about "their choice, not His" is unsupported opinion.
....and my point (since I can only speak for myself) has been that there will be none of His creation that WILL (in the end) reject Him. Love never fails (it just may take a whiledestroy those creations of His that reject Him.
Josh 24:14-15 Now therefore fear Jehovah, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt; and serve ye Jehovah. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.Your interpretation of words like "destroy" is exegesis.
Your comment about "their choice, not His" is unsupported opinion.
I understand your theory. The problem with this theory is, Scripture doesn't agree.....and my point (since I can only speak for myself) has been that there will be none of His creation that WILL (in the end) reject Him. Love never fails (it just may take a while).
From what I understand......there's almost an equal amount of verses distributed between the three camps (Universal Reconciliation; Annihilation: and Eternal Torment). It doesn't take ignoring other Scripture to be of the belief of Universal Reconciliation.Universalists have scoured the Scriptures, and have found a TINY handful of verses
Dartman said:For instance; "Who would have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)
Dartman said:God didn't create all humans with the instinct to be righteous, by contrast God created all humans, including Jesus, with the craving to sin.
Again, there isn't a single text that clearly explains, defines or preaches the universalist theory.... while by contrast there are MANY texts that explain in detail that the wicked face destruction, death, being "burned up", they "will not be", they will "be no more".From what I understand......there's almost an equal amount of verses distributed between the three camps (Universal Reconciliation; Annihilation: and Eternal Torment). It doesn't take ignoring other Scripture to be of the belief of Universal Reconciliation.
Heb 4:14-15 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.mkgal1 said:......however...I have NEVER heard any Christian state this about Jesus (who is GOD):
.....not so. Jesus (GOD) has NO "craving to sin".
In contrast to universalist theories;
2 Peter 3:7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
You have posted a very biased definition.Regarding the Greek word for "destruction":
"684 /apoleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165;"
Exactly! The Bible does NOT teach the wicked will forever be tortured! It teaches they will be utterly destroyed, "left neither root, nor branch", they will be "ashes under" the feet of the righteous, at least until the earth is renewed.ClementofA said:Also the verse speaks of a "day" of judgement & destruction, not endless destruction.
This passage does a wonderful job of showing that God Himself is the source of Jesus' power, and that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to his God, AFTER all enemies are destroyed. The "enemies" include all rule, authority and power ... obviously that doesn't include Jesus' power, or his God's power ... so those that oppose Jesus are going to be destroyed, as Jesus explained in his parable of the pounds;ClementofA said:1Cor. 15: 24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Then God is directly responsible for the outcome, and can't very well be holding people responsible for performing according to the operating system with which He programmed them.God didn't create all humans with the instinct to be righteous, by contrast God created all humans, including Jesus, with the craving to sin.
You're ignoring the rest of the information. God ALSO designed us with the ability to override our instincts.Then God is directly responsible for the outcome, and can't very well be holding people responsible for performing according to the operating system with which He programmed them.
How much simpler and more sensible it would have been to do all that without installing the sin-craving app alongside those other programs. It's like a programmer deliberately installing a virus alongside all the other goodies.You're ignoring the rest of the information. God ALSO designed us with the ability to override our instincts.
God ALSO provided mankind His instructions, complete with hundreds of case studies of how to please Him, and how NOT to please Him.
God ALSO provided mankind incredible GRACE ... a process of repentance, and forgiveness for our failures.
God ALSO provides for mankind an AMAZING promise ... "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened"! This IRON CLAD guarantee, coupled with God's amazing creation (Rom 1:20) removes ANY excuse regarding "those natives in the darkest jungle", etc.
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